Mini Camp Thread - (June 17-18)

There's not a lot any of us should take from the first mini-camp and OTA...for one, too many vets not there (OTA) for another, as Singletary doesn't hesitate to point out, there's only so much you can evaluate when the guys are in shorts and no pads. Arguably the best you'll get is a chance for some of the 2nd & 3rd stringers to get a lot more reps than usual because so many of the vets are gone. It also gives the rookies a glimpse of the pace of NFL (or should I say Singletary's) practices. It's important to remember most of the youngsters haven't practiced since the 2009 season...so, their initial practices are a bit of a "wake-up call".

A few things that caught my eye...Baas and Wragge getting most of the 2nd string snaps at C. That should spell the end of Wallace. Alex Boone getting snaps at LT...which would seem to indicate the coaches are impressed enough with his "reshaping" to think he's got a legit chance to make the team. Another was the amount of balls thrown to Ginn...which could mean he'll be a much bigger part of the passing game than many of us originally thought. Alex becoming a more vocal leader on the field would be another.

The mandatory OTA/mini-camp could tell us more...particularly with many more vets there. They're all leading up to what should be the most competitive training camp in recent history...competition for roster spots will be I-N-T-E-N-S-E.

Originally posted by CorvaNinerFan:
There's not a lot any of us should take from the first mini-camp and OTA...for one, too many vets not there (OTA) for another, as Singletary doesn't hesitate to point out, there's only so much you can evaluate when the guys are in shorts and no pads. Arguably the best you'll get is a chance for some of the 2nd & 3rd stringers to get a lot more reps than usual because so many of the vets are gone. It also gives the rookies a glimpse of the pace of NFL (or should I say Singletary's) practices. It's important to remember most of the youngsters haven't practiced since the 2009 season...so, their initial practices are a bit of a "wake-up call".

A few things that caught my eye...Baas and Wragge getting most of the 2nd string snaps at C. That should spell the end of Wallace. Alex Boone getting snaps at LT...which would seem to indicate the coaches are impressed enough with his "reshaping" to think he's got a legit chance to make the team. Another was the amount of balls thrown to Ginn...which could mean he'll be a much bigger part of the passing game than many of us originally thought. Alex becoming a more vocal leader on the field would be another.

The mandatory OTA/mini-camp could tell us more...particularly with many more vets there. They're all leading up to what should be the most competitive training camp in recent history...competition for roster spots will be I-N-T-E-N-S-E.

And that, my friends, will make us better in the long run. No complacency.

Originally posted by ninertico:

More for your viewing pleasure...

Originally posted by ninertico:

Originally posted by CorvaNinerFan:
There's not a lot any of us should take from the first mini-camp and OTA...for one, too many vets not there (OTA) for another, as Singletary doesn't hesitate to point out, there's only so much you can evaluate when the guys are in shorts and no pads. Arguably the best you'll get is a chance for some of the 2nd & 3rd stringers to get a lot more reps than usual because so many of the vets are gone. It also gives the rookies a glimpse of the pace of NFL (or should I say Singletary's) practices. It's important to remember most of the youngsters haven't practiced since the 2009 season...so, their initial practices are a bit of a "wake-up call".

A few things that caught my eye...Baas and Wragge getting most of the 2nd string snaps at C. That should spell the end of Wallace. Alex Boone getting snaps at LT...which would seem to indicate the coaches are impressed enough with his "reshaping" to think he's got a legit chance to make the team. Another was the amount of balls thrown to Ginn...which could mean he'll be a much bigger part of the passing game than many of us originally thought. Alex becoming a more vocal leader on the field would be another.

The mandatory OTA/mini-camp could tell us more...particularly with many more vets there. They're all leading up to what should be the most competitive training camp in recent history...competition for roster spots will be I-N-T-E-N-S-E.

And that, my friends, will make us better in the long run. No complacency.

Completely agree with you there!

Originally posted by DaDivaRecieva15:

mays drinking the kool-aid, can i get some?

Originally posted by crabman82:

Originally posted by DaDivaRecieva15:

mays drinking the kool-aid, can i get some?

Im drinkin it too!!

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by oldninerdude:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by lamontb:

Originally posted by foreign49er:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by foreign49er:


From what I understand, this is where we disagree. I believe they need to be more creative and you believe they were already creative enough, they just didn't have the right pieces. I'm not convinced yet but then again I've yet to see them play a game. I hope you're right because that would mean a deep playoff run, I'm just nervous that I'm right and this team will be hindered by a stubborn coaching staff.

Please forgive my being defensive, but this is not what I'm saying at all. I'm not saying they're already creative. I'm saying you have to learn how to walk before you can run. The team needs to be able to understand how to consistently execute successful plays against a defense, maintain drives, etc before they'll be able to consistently throw a WR in the slot in a 3-WIDE set. Doing something "creative" on offense IMHO, is only effective when you've proven you can do hurt a defense on the basics. You're countering their response. We haven't yet proven we can do the "non-creative" stuff yet. Every offense has a staple, and identity. The 49ers need on before they can innovate scheme.

Just my 2 cents.

Fair enough. I'm not saying they need to consistently go into a 3-wide set, I'd love to see them run all over a defense, but I would like to see it be considered as an alternative in case the run isn't working. I don't see a lot of thought going into, "what if this doesn't go exactly as planned" on offense and it's worrying. Nothing I can do about it though.

All you have to do is look at last year homie. Now you might not like what you see but it was apparent that the smash mouth wasn't working thus they inserted Smith and the spread. Problem is it took to dam long to realize that. So the thing is how soon do they pull the plug on that this year. Or do they come out with the spread, and smash mouth meshed together to keep defensive off balance. It can't be like last year where the team had 2 separate offensive identities. Which lead to a lot of predictability. The progression of this offense has to mainly be from overly predictable to having some form of disguise. I have no problem with smash mouth, but I want to see how they compliment the smash mouth b/c this is a passing league 1st, and foremost. Gotta be able to burn the defense out of all formations instead of it being run 98% of the time when set up in traditional run offensive sets. and conversely when in the spread the team needs to utilize Gore or quick passes to keep the defense from setting back in coverage and overloading the A gap's and blitzing right up the middle.

Good discussion lamontb ....

I think the bigger question is "why wasn't smash mouth working?" I think regardless of offensive philosophy you must have the personnel to run it. Agreed you must burn the defense when they overload to stop one approach or the other - this is just as true for passing as for running as you pointed out. I just wanted us to get away from the "smash mouth is inherently bad" assumption because there are teams that have that philosophy and win consistently with it.

What Singletary wanted and what his guys could actually do were two different things. I chalk it up to a new OC being told "run this offense" and Raye saying "oh sure man I can do it" without really knowing the talent level he had. This is where I'm so hard on the position coaches, particularly Forester. If it's true that Singletary had so much respect for Forester, then when does he say in the off-season "hey coach, we don't have the horses to run this kind of offense."

I think for the first time in quite a long time, we have the OC who's actually much more familiar with the talent level and understands their strengths and weaknesses - why I think Hill was replaced mid-season. The offense was stalling not simply because they were predictable but also because Hill couldn't take advantage of the defense as much as Smith could. WCO vs Digit System (Dallas Cowboys 90's-style).

It can work, you just need a lot more talent than we had on the OL. Will it change this season up front? I hopeful because IMHO, Forester didn't innovate (it's not all on the OC). If blocking improves just by 10 percent on 3rd downs, the 49ers sustain drives that will win them games (on offense). I'm hopeful.

You make some excellent points GM.

The lack of talent on the OL, plus their inablity to execute consistently (talent and coaching deficiencies) caused them to have to abandon the pro set offense and go to what appeared to be a spread offense. It became the only way to move the chains.

The problem was the OL talent and the OL execution, though, not the origninal scheme. Too often we saw the failure to just get any positive yardage, much less a two or three yard gain, on a run play last season.

Raye should be given some credit for being able to adjust, midseason, and run the spread.

The spread won't work long term, though, because its too one dimensional. Teams double Crabs and VD, stunt on Rachal and Snyder, and Smith then has to bail out and run right . . . and you know the rest.

It comes down to OL play, and credit Singletary, and Raye, for seeing that and making moves to improve the OL. Solari and Brown may prove to be a Godsend. The fact that Solari and Raye worked together before at KC should help.

I think your analysis shows alot of thought and insight. Thank you.

Thanks oldninerdude! Just logging my opinion with the rest here.

Just look at the 98-00 Kansas City Chiefs for a glimpse at what I think this offense will resemble in 2010. As has been mentioned previously, current 49ers Offensive Coordinator Jimmy Raye and new Offensive Line Coach Mike Solari have worked together in Kansas City. Here is an excerpt from Jimmy Raye's biography on 49ers.com.

Quote:
Raye spent eight years with Kansas City (1992-2000) in various coaching capacities. From 1998 to 2000, Raye served as the team’s offensive coordinator. Under his guidance in 2000, the Chiefs ranked eighth in the NFL in total offense (350.9 ypg) and fourth in passing (259.3 ypg). A year prior, Kansas City finished fourth in the NFL in rushing (130.1 ypg), tied for eighth in points scored (24.4 ppg) and ranked 12th in total offense (332.6 ypg). The 390 points marked the third-highest scoring output in team history and its most prolific in 32 years.

Here is an excerpt from Mike Solari's biography on 49ers.com.

Quote:
Following his initial stint with the 49ers, Solari spent nine seasons as the offensive line coach for Kansas City (1997-2005), three of which came under current 49ers offensive coordinator Jimmy Raye (1998-2000), who held the same position for the Chiefs at the time. With Solari directing the Kansas City offensive line, the team averaged 126.8 rushing yards per game, ranking fourth in the NFL during that time span.

Solari’s line produced a trio of Pro Bowl offensive linemen in 2004 and 2005, in guards Will Shields and Brian Waters, as well as tackle Willie Roaf. Kansas City became the first club to accomplish that feat since Dallas from 1993-96. As a result of his offensive line’s dominance, the Chiefs offense led the league in total offense in 2004 (franchise-record 418.4 ypg) and 2005 (387.0 ypg).

The Daly City, CA, native was later promoted by the Chiefs to offensive coordinator in 2006. During his 11-year tenure in Kansas City, the team finished in the top 10 in rushing on seven occasions, in the top five four times, and ranked 6th in the NFL in total offense (359.2 yards per game) over that span. Solari was one of just six assistant coaches in team history to record more than a decade of service with the franchise.

Here is a look at the Kansas City Chiefs' rosters and statistics from 1998-2000 under Jimmy Raye.

1998 Chiefs Roster and Statistics (Offense Rank: 14th/ Defense Rank: 22nd)
1999 Chiefs Roster and Statistics (Offense Rank: 8th/ Defense Rank: 13th)
2000 Chiefs Roster and Statistics (Offense Rank: 9th/ Defense Rank: 19th)

Looking at this made me realize how much better our 49ers could be compared to this team. These teams generally had bad defenses, where as our defense is much better. We could really have something here if our offense can pick it up like these Chiefs teams did under Jimmy Raye! All I'm saying is that there is a glimmer of hope for us to have success.

Comments/ Reactions?

My Thread...

Originally posted by crabman82:

Originally posted by DaDivaRecieva15:

mays drinking the kool-aid, can i get some?

Better the Kool Aid, than Purple Drank

http://www.ramsrule.com/herd/read.php?5,3728,3728

Originally posted by PTulini:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by oldninerdude:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by lamontb:

Originally posted by foreign49er:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by foreign49er:


From what I understand, this is where we disagree. I believe they need to be more creative and you believe they were already creative enough, they just didn't have the right pieces. I'm not convinced yet but then again I've yet to see them play a game. I hope you're right because that would mean a deep playoff run, I'm just nervous that I'm right and this team will be hindered by a stubborn coaching staff.

Please forgive my being defensive, but this is not what I'm saying at all. I'm not saying they're already creative. I'm saying you have to learn how to walk before you can run. The team needs to be able to understand how to consistently execute successful plays against a defense, maintain drives, etc before they'll be able to consistently throw a WR in the slot in a 3-WIDE set. Doing something "creative" on offense IMHO, is only effective when you've proven you can do hurt a defense on the basics. You're countering their response. We haven't yet proven we can do the "non-creative" stuff yet. Every offense has a staple, and identity. The 49ers need on before they can innovate scheme.

Just my 2 cents.

Fair enough. I'm not saying they need to consistently go into a 3-wide set, I'd love to see them run all over a defense, but I would like to see it be considered as an alternative in case the run isn't working. I don't see a lot of thought going into, "what if this doesn't go exactly as planned" on offense and it's worrying. Nothing I can do about it though.

All you have to do is look at last year homie. Now you might not like what you see but it was apparent that the smash mouth wasn't working thus they inserted Smith and the spread. Problem is it took to dam long to realize that. So the thing is how soon do they pull the plug on that this year. Or do they come out with the spread, and smash mouth meshed together to keep defensive off balance. It can't be like last year where the team had 2 separate offensive identities. Which lead to a lot of predictability. The progression of this offense has to mainly be from overly predictable to having some form of disguise. I have no problem with smash mouth, but I want to see how they compliment the smash mouth b/c this is a passing league 1st, and foremost. Gotta be able to burn the defense out of all formations instead of it being run 98% of the time when set up in traditional run offensive sets. and conversely when in the spread the team needs to utilize Gore or quick passes to keep the defense from setting back in coverage and overloading the A gap's and blitzing right up the middle.

Good discussion lamontb ....

I think the bigger question is "why wasn't smash mouth working?" I think regardless of offensive philosophy you must have the personnel to run it. Agreed you must burn the defense when they overload to stop one approach or the other - this is just as true for passing as for running as you pointed out. I just wanted us to get away from the "smash mouth is inherently bad" assumption because there are teams that have that philosophy and win consistently with it.

What Singletary wanted and what his guys could actually do were two different things. I chalk it up to a new OC being told "run this offense" and Raye saying "oh sure man I can do it" without really knowing the talent level he had. This is where I'm so hard on the position coaches, particularly Forester. If it's true that Singletary had so much respect for Forester, then when does he say in the off-season "hey coach, we don't have the horses to run this kind of offense."

I think for the first time in quite a long time, we have the OC who's actually much more familiar with the talent level and understands their strengths and weaknesses - why I think Hill was replaced mid-season. The offense was stalling not simply because they were predictable but also because Hill couldn't take advantage of the defense as much as Smith could. WCO vs Digit System (Dallas Cowboys 90's-style).

It can work, you just need a lot more talent than we had on the OL. Will it change this season up front? I hopeful because IMHO, Forester didn't innovate (it's not all on the OC). If blocking improves just by 10 percent on 3rd downs, the 49ers sustain drives that will win them games (on offense). I'm hopeful.

You make some excellent points GM.

The lack of talent on the OL, plus their inablity to execute consistently (talent and coaching deficiencies) caused them to have to abandon the pro set offense and go to what appeared to be a spread offense. It became the only way to move the chains.

The problem was the OL talent and the OL execution, though, not the origninal scheme. Too often we saw the failure to just get any positive yardage, much less a two or three yard gain, on a run play last season.

Raye should be given some credit for being able to adjust, midseason, and run the spread.

The spread won't work long term, though, because its too one dimensional. Teams double Crabs and VD, stunt on Rachal and Snyder, and Smith then has to bail out and run right . . . and you know the rest.

It comes down to OL play, and credit Singletary, and Raye, for seeing that and making moves to improve the OL. Solari and Brown may prove to be a Godsend. The fact that Solari and Raye worked together before at KC should help.

I think your analysis shows alot of thought and insight. Thank you.

Thanks oldninerdude! Just logging my opinion with the rest here.

Just look at the 98-00 Kansas City Chiefs for a glimpse at what I think this offense will resemble in 2010. As has been mentioned previously, current 49ers Offensive Coordinator Jimmy Raye and new Offensive Line Coach Mike Solari have worked together in Kansas City. Here is an excerpt from Jimmy Raye's biography on 49ers.com.

Quote:
Raye spent eight years with Kansas City (1992-2000) in various coaching capacities. From 1998 to 2000, Raye served as the team’s offensive coordinator. Under his guidance in 2000, the Chiefs ranked eighth in the NFL in total offense (350.9 ypg) and fourth in passing (259.3 ypg). A year prior, Kansas City finished fourth in the NFL in rushing (130.1 ypg), tied for eighth in points scored (24.4 ppg) and ranked 12th in total offense (332.6 ypg). The 390 points marked the third-highest scoring output in team history and its most prolific in 32 years.

Here is an excerpt from Mike Solari's biography on 49ers.com.

Quote:
Following his initial stint with the 49ers, Solari spent nine seasons as the offensive line coach for Kansas City (1997-2005), three of which came under current 49ers offensive coordinator Jimmy Raye (1998-2000), who held the same position for the Chiefs at the time. With Solari directing the Kansas City offensive line, the team averaged 126.8 rushing yards per game, ranking fourth in the NFL during that time span.

Solari’s line produced a trio of Pro Bowl offensive linemen in 2004 and 2005, in guards Will Shields and Brian Waters, as well as tackle Willie Roaf. Kansas City became the first club to accomplish that feat since Dallas from 1993-96. As a result of his offensive line’s dominance, the Chiefs offense led the league in total offense in 2004 (franchise-record 418.4 ypg) and 2005 (387.0 ypg).

The Daly City, CA, native was later promoted by the Chiefs to offensive coordinator in 2006. During his 11-year tenure in Kansas City, the team finished in the top 10 in rushing on seven occasions, in the top five four times, and ranked 6th in the NFL in total offense (359.2 yards per game) over that span. Solari was one of just six assistant coaches in team history to record more than a decade of service with the franchise.

Here is a look at the Kansas City Chiefs' rosters and statistics from 1998-2000 under Jimmy Raye.

1998 Chiefs Roster and Statistics (Offense Rank: 14th/ Defense Rank: 22nd)
1999 Chiefs Roster and Statistics (Offense Rank: 8th/ Defense Rank: 13th)
2000 Chiefs Roster and Statistics (Offense Rank: 9th/ Defense Rank: 19th)

Looking at this made me realize how much better our 49ers could be compared to this team. These teams generally had bad defenses, where as our defense is much better. We could really have something here if our offense can pick it up like these Chiefs teams did under Jimmy Raye! All I'm saying is that there is a glimmer of hope for us to have success.

Comments/ Reactions?

My Thread...

You preachin to the choir brotha

Originally posted by wysiwyg:

Originally posted by PTulini:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by oldninerdude:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by lamontb:

Originally posted by foreign49er:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by foreign49er:


From what I understand, this is where we disagree. I believe they need to be more creative and you believe they were already creative enough, they just didn't have the right pieces. I'm not convinced yet but then again I've yet to see them play a game. I hope you're right because that would mean a deep playoff run, I'm just nervous that I'm right and this team will be hindered by a stubborn coaching staff.

Please forgive my being defensive, but this is not what I'm saying at all. I'm not saying they're already creative. I'm saying you have to learn how to walk before you can run. The team needs to be able to understand how to consistently execute successful plays against a defense, maintain drives, etc before they'll be able to consistently throw a WR in the slot in a 3-WIDE set. Doing something "creative" on offense IMHO, is only effective when you've proven you can do hurt a defense on the basics. You're countering their response. We haven't yet proven we can do the "non-creative" stuff yet. Every offense has a staple, and identity. The 49ers need on before they can innovate scheme.

Just my 2 cents.

Fair enough. I'm not saying they need to consistently go into a 3-wide set, I'd love to see them run all over a defense, but I would like to see it be considered as an alternative in case the run isn't working. I don't see a lot of thought going into, "what if this doesn't go exactly as planned" on offense and it's worrying. Nothing I can do about it though.

All you have to do is look at last year homie. Now you might not like what you see but it was apparent that the smash mouth wasn't working thus they inserted Smith and the spread. Problem is it took to dam long to realize that. So the thing is how soon do they pull the plug on that this year. Or do they come out with the spread, and smash mouth meshed together to keep defensive off balance. It can't be like last year where the team had 2 separate offensive identities. Which lead to a lot of predictability. The progression of this offense has to mainly be from overly predictable to having some form of disguise. I have no problem with smash mouth, but I want to see how they compliment the smash mouth b/c this is a passing league 1st, and foremost. Gotta be able to burn the defense out of all formations instead of it being run 98% of the time when set up in traditional run offensive sets. and conversely when in the spread the team needs to utilize Gore or quick passes to keep the defense from setting back in coverage and overloading the A gap's and blitzing right up the middle.

Good discussion lamontb ....

I think the bigger question is "why wasn't smash mouth working?" I think regardless of offensive philosophy you must have the personnel to run it. Agreed you must burn the defense when they overload to stop one approach or the other - this is just as true for passing as for running as you pointed out. I just wanted us to get away from the "smash mouth is inherently bad" assumption because there are teams that have that philosophy and win consistently with it.

What Singletary wanted and what his guys could actually do were two different things. I chalk it up to a new OC being told "run this offense" and Raye saying "oh sure man I can do it" without really knowing the talent level he had. This is where I'm so hard on the position coaches, particularly Forester. If it's true that Singletary had so much respect for Forester, then when does he say in the off-season "hey coach, we don't have the horses to run this kind of offense."

I think for the first time in quite a long time, we have the OC who's actually much more familiar with the talent level and understands their strengths and weaknesses - why I think Hill was replaced mid-season. The offense was stalling not simply because they were predictable but also because Hill couldn't take advantage of the defense as much as Smith could. WCO vs Digit System (Dallas Cowboys 90's-style).

It can work, you just need a lot more talent than we had on the OL. Will it change this season up front? I hopeful because IMHO, Forester didn't innovate (it's not all on the OC). If blocking improves just by 10 percent on 3rd downs, the 49ers sustain drives that will win them games (on offense). I'm hopeful.

You make some excellent points GM.

The lack of talent on the OL, plus their inablity to execute consistently (talent and coaching deficiencies) caused them to have to abandon the pro set offense and go to what appeared to be a spread offense. It became the only way to move the chains.

The problem was the OL talent and the OL execution, though, not the origninal scheme. Too often we saw the failure to just get any positive yardage, much less a two or three yard gain, on a run play last season.

Raye should be given some credit for being able to adjust, midseason, and run the spread.

The spread won't work long term, though, because its too one dimensional. Teams double Crabs and VD, stunt on Rachal and Snyder, and Smith then has to bail out and run right . . . and you know the rest.

It comes down to OL play, and credit Singletary, and Raye, for seeing that and making moves to improve the OL. Solari and Brown may prove to be a Godsend. The fact that Solari and Raye worked together before at KC should help.

I think your analysis shows alot of thought and insight. Thank you.

Thanks oldninerdude! Just logging my opinion with the rest here.

Just look at the 98-00 Kansas City Chiefs for a glimpse at what I think this offense will resemble in 2010. As has been mentioned previously, current 49ers Offensive Coordinator Jimmy Raye and new Offensive Line Coach Mike Solari have worked together in Kansas City. Here is an excerpt from Jimmy Raye's biography on 49ers.com.

Quote:
Raye spent eight years with Kansas City (1992-2000) in various coaching capacities. From 1998 to 2000, Raye served as the team’s offensive coordinator. Under his guidance in 2000, the Chiefs ranked eighth in the NFL in total offense (350.9 ypg) and fourth in passing (259.3 ypg). A year prior, Kansas City finished fourth in the NFL in rushing (130.1 ypg), tied for eighth in points scored (24.4 ppg) and ranked 12th in total offense (332.6 ypg). The 390 points marked the third-highest scoring output in team history and its most prolific in 32 years.

Here is an excerpt from Mike Solari's biography on 49ers.com.

Quote:
Following his initial stint with the 49ers, Solari spent nine seasons as the offensive line coach for Kansas City (1997-2005), three of which came under current 49ers offensive coordinator Jimmy Raye (1998-2000), who held the same position for the Chiefs at the time. With Solari directing the Kansas City offensive line, the team averaged 126.8 rushing yards per game, ranking fourth in the NFL during that time span.

Solari’s line produced a trio of Pro Bowl offensive linemen in 2004 and 2005, in guards Will Shields and Brian Waters, as well as tackle Willie Roaf. Kansas City became the first club to accomplish that feat since Dallas from 1993-96. As a result of his offensive line’s dominance, the Chiefs offense led the league in total offense in 2004 (franchise-record 418.4 ypg) and 2005 (387.0 ypg).

The Daly City, CA, native was later promoted by the Chiefs to offensive coordinator in 2006. During his 11-year tenure in Kansas City, the team finished in the top 10 in rushing on seven occasions, in the top five four times, and ranked 6th in the NFL in total offense (359.2 yards per game) over that span. Solari was one of just six assistant coaches in team history to record more than a decade of service with the franchise.

Here is a look at the Kansas City Chiefs' rosters and statistics from 1998-2000 under Jimmy Raye.

1998 Chiefs Roster and Statistics (Offense Rank: 14th/ Defense Rank: 22nd)
1999 Chiefs Roster and Statistics (Offense Rank: 8th/ Defense Rank: 13th)
2000 Chiefs Roster and Statistics (Offense Rank: 9th/ Defense Rank: 19th)

Looking at this made me realize how much better our 49ers could be compared to this team. These teams generally had bad defenses, where as our defense is much better. We could really have something here if our offense can pick it up like these Chiefs teams did under Jimmy Raye! All I'm saying is that there is a glimmer of hope for us to have success.

Comments/ Reactions?

My Thread...

You preachin to the choir brotha

What do you mean?

Originally posted by PTulini:

Originally posted by wysiwyg:

Originally posted by PTulini:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by oldninerdude:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by lamontb:

Originally posted by foreign49er:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by foreign49er:


From what I understand, this is where we disagree. I believe they need to be more creative and you believe they were already creative enough, they just didn't have the right pieces. I'm not convinced yet but then again I've yet to see them play a game. I hope you're right because that would mean a deep playoff run, I'm just nervous that I'm right and this team will be hindered by a stubborn coaching staff.

Please forgive my being defensive, but this is not what I'm saying at all. I'm not saying they're already creative. I'm saying you have to learn how to walk before you can run. The team needs to be able to understand how to consistently execute successful plays against a defense, maintain drives, etc before they'll be able to consistently throw a WR in the slot in a 3-WIDE set. Doing something "creative" on offense IMHO, is only effective when you've proven you can do hurt a defense on the basics. You're countering their response. We haven't yet proven we can do the "non-creative" stuff yet. Every offense has a staple, and identity. The 49ers need on before they can innovate scheme.

Just my 2 cents.

Fair enough. I'm not saying they need to consistently go into a 3-wide set, I'd love to see them run all over a defense, but I would like to see it be considered as an alternative in case the run isn't working. I don't see a lot of thought going into, "what if this doesn't go exactly as planned" on offense and it's worrying. Nothing I can do about it though.

All you have to do is look at last year homie. Now you might not like what you see but it was apparent that the smash mouth wasn't working thus they inserted Smith and the spread. Problem is it took to dam long to realize that. So the thing is how soon do they pull the plug on that this year. Or do they come out with the spread, and smash mouth meshed together to keep defensive off balance. It can't be like last year where the team had 2 separate offensive identities. Which lead to a lot of predictability. The progression of this offense has to mainly be from overly predictable to having some form of disguise. I have no problem with smash mouth, but I want to see how they compliment the smash mouth b/c this is a passing league 1st, and foremost. Gotta be able to burn the defense out of all formations instead of it being run 98% of the time when set up in traditional run offensive sets. and conversely when in the spread the team needs to utilize Gore or quick passes to keep the defense from setting back in coverage and overloading the A gap's and blitzing right up the middle.

Good discussion lamontb ....

I think the bigger question is "why wasn't smash mouth working?" I think regardless of offensive philosophy you must have the personnel to run it. Agreed you must burn the defense when they overload to stop one approach or the other - this is just as true for passing as for running as you pointed out. I just wanted us to get away from the "smash mouth is inherently bad" assumption because there are teams that have that philosophy and win consistently with it.

What Singletary wanted and what his guys could actually do were two different things. I chalk it up to a new OC being told "run this offense" and Raye saying "oh sure man I can do it" without really knowing the talent level he had. This is where I'm so hard on the position coaches, particularly Forester. If it's true that Singletary had so much respect for Forester, then when does he say in the off-season "hey coach, we don't have the horses to run this kind of offense."

I think for the first time in quite a long time, we have the OC who's actually much more familiar with the talent level and understands their strengths and weaknesses - why I think Hill was replaced mid-season. The offense was stalling not simply because they were predictable but also because Hill couldn't take advantage of the defense as much as Smith could. WCO vs Digit System (Dallas Cowboys 90's-style).

It can work, you just need a lot more talent than we had on the OL. Will it change this season up front? I hopeful because IMHO, Forester didn't innovate (it's not all on the OC). If blocking improves just by 10 percent on 3rd downs, the 49ers sustain drives that will win them games (on offense). I'm hopeful.

You make some excellent points GM.

The lack of talent on the OL, plus their inablity to execute consistently (talent and coaching deficiencies) caused them to have to abandon the pro set offense and go to what appeared to be a spread offense. It became the only way to move the chains.

The problem was the OL talent and the OL execution, though, not the origninal scheme. Too often we saw the failure to just get any positive yardage, much less a two or three yard gain, on a run play last season.

Raye should be given some credit for being able to adjust, midseason, and run the spread.

The spread won't work long term, though, because its too one dimensional. Teams double Crabs and VD, stunt on Rachal and Snyder, and Smith then has to bail out and run right . . . and you know the rest.

It comes down to OL play, and credit Singletary, and Raye, for seeing that and making moves to improve the OL. Solari and Brown may prove to be a Godsend. The fact that Solari and Raye worked together before at KC should help.

I think your analysis shows alot of thought and insight. Thank you.

Thanks oldninerdude! Just logging my opinion with the rest here.

Just look at the 98-00 Kansas City Chiefs for a glimpse at what I think this offense will resemble in 2010. As has been mentioned previously, current 49ers Offensive Coordinator Jimmy Raye and new Offensive Line Coach Mike Solari have worked together in Kansas City. Here is an excerpt from Jimmy Raye's biography on 49ers.com.

Quote:
Raye spent eight years with Kansas City (1992-2000) in various coaching capacities. From 1998 to 2000, Raye served as the team’s offensive coordinator. Under his guidance in 2000, the Chiefs ranked eighth in the NFL in total offense (350.9 ypg) and fourth in passing (259.3 ypg). A year prior, Kansas City finished fourth in the NFL in rushing (130.1 ypg), tied for eighth in points scored (24.4 ppg) and ranked 12th in total offense (332.6 ypg). The 390 points marked the third-highest scoring output in team history and its most prolific in 32 years.

Here is an excerpt from Mike Solari's biography on 49ers.com.

Quote:
Following his initial stint with the 49ers, Solari spent nine seasons as the offensive line coach for Kansas City (1997-2005), three of which came under current 49ers offensive coordinator Jimmy Raye (1998-2000), who held the same position for the Chiefs at the time. With Solari directing the Kansas City offensive line, the team averaged 126.8 rushing yards per game, ranking fourth in the NFL during that time span.

Solari’s line produced a trio of Pro Bowl offensive linemen in 2004 and 2005, in guards Will Shields and Brian Waters, as well as tackle Willie Roaf. Kansas City became the first club to accomplish that feat since Dallas from 1993-96. As a result of his offensive line’s dominance, the Chiefs offense led the league in total offense in 2004 (franchise-record 418.4 ypg) and 2005 (387.0 ypg).

The Daly City, CA, native was later promoted by the Chiefs to offensive coordinator in 2006. During his 11-year tenure in Kansas City, the team finished in the top 10 in rushing on seven occasions, in the top five four times, and ranked 6th in the NFL in total offense (359.2 yards per game) over that span. Solari was one of just six assistant coaches in team history to record more than a decade of service with the franchise.

Here is a look at the Kansas City Chiefs' rosters and statistics from 1998-2000 under Jimmy Raye.

1998 Chiefs Roster and Statistics (Offense Rank: 14th/ Defense Rank: 22nd)
1999 Chiefs Roster and Statistics (Offense Rank: 8th/ Defense Rank: 13th)
2000 Chiefs Roster and Statistics (Offense Rank: 9th/ Defense Rank: 19th)

Looking at this made me realize how much better our 49ers could be compared to this team. These teams generally had bad defenses, where as our defense is much better. We could really have something here if our offense can pick it up like these Chiefs teams did under Jimmy Raye! All I'm saying is that there is a glimmer of hope for us to have success.

Comments/ Reactions?

My Thread...

You preachin to the choir brotha

What do you mean?

I'm with ya

Everything OTAs here.

Originally posted by mayo63:
Everything OTAs here.

Ready for some more good days of work by our team!

didnt even know OTAs started again

wanna hear more about the o line