Mini Camp Thread - (June 17-18)

Originally posted by foreign49er:

Originally posted by 49erThrowback:

Originally posted by foreign49er:

We have 6 WR on this team but we're only going to use 2 at a time? That seems like a waste of talent imo. Imagine if Ginn/Davis/Crabs/Morgan are all on the field at the same time, that's a lot harder to cover than Davis/Crabs/Morgan/Walker wouldn't you agree?

This team will end up with 5 WR, and probably one on the PS. How many 3-receiver sets you see will be based more on what the receivers (and other playmakers) show during TC and PS than anything else. If it makes the most sense to have two RBs in the backfield most of the time, do the math and figure out how many WRs you'll have. In this case, if you want 3, you'll have to take Davis out of the game. If you want only one RB in the backfield, Davis probably becomes a blocker.

Why? Can't you just bring Norris out and line up in a single-back set with 3WR, Davis at TE, Gore in the backfield? Gore stays in as a blocker, 3WR and 1 TE running routes. No? We can't do that? We can't line up Vernon as a WR in the slot? He has to be lined up as a TE in a power run formation?

Hill/Jones/Morgan/Crabtree/Williams/Ginn are most liekly to make the team at WR. Even if we only carry 5, we're only going to use 2 at once? That seems like a waste of speed and play-making imo(something our offense was lacking last year).

Why is it wrong to want your team to have a more open play-book? It's almost like I'm committing heresy for not believing in Jimmy Raye (who has never won anything) 100%.

I'm sure we will see plenty of 3WR sets. It's just that our base formation is 2WR set and a fullback, since Gore likes to run behind a blocker.

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by foreign49er:

Originally posted by 49erThrowback:

Originally posted by foreign49er:

We have 6 WR on this team but we're only going to use 2 at a time? That seems like a waste of talent imo. Imagine if Ginn/Davis/Crabs/Morgan are all on the field at the same time, that's a lot harder to cover than Davis/Crabs/Morgan/Walker wouldn't you agree?

This team will end up with 5 WR, and probably one on the PS. How many 3-receiver sets you see will be based more on what the receivers (and other playmakers) show during TC and PS than anything else. If it makes the most sense to have two RBs in the backfield most of the time, do the math and figure out how many WRs you'll have. In this case, if you want 3, you'll have to take Davis out of the game. If you want only one RB in the backfield, Davis probably becomes a blocker.

Why? Can't you just bring Norris out and line up in a single-back set with 3WR, Davis at TE, Gore in the backfield? Gore stays in as a blocker, 3WR and 1 TE running routes. No? We can't do that? We can't line up Vernon as a WR in the slot? He has to be lined up as a TE in a power run formation?

Hill/Jones/Morgan/Crabtree/Williams/Ginn are most liekly to make the team at WR. Even if we only carry 5, we're only going to use 2 at once? That seems like a waste of speed and play-making imo(something our offense was lacking last year).

Why is it wrong to want your team to have a more open play-book? It's almost like I'm committing heresy for not believing in Jimmy Raye (who has never won anything) 100%.

I'm sure we will see plenty of 3WR sets. It's just that our base formation is 2WR set and a fullback, since Gore likes to run behind a blocker.

I hope so. If I recall, we RARELY put 3 WRs on the field. We much prefer sticking out Walker instead of a 3rd WR.

-9fA

i cant wait to see mays and bowman added to what we already have on defense 49ers dominant last year led nfl in forced fumbles check out highlight reel 49 tenacious d
http://redzone-re-cutter.nfl.com/clip.aspx?key=86FE80BC52C5722B&ctx=medialist&type=image

Originally posted by Kolohe:

Originally posted by NickSh49:

Originally posted by lamontb:

Originally posted by ninertico:
After reading all the info on our OTA's, seeing the pics and videos and listening to NFL analysts, I see some definite improvement on our squad especially the offense. I see that Alex Smith finally has total control of this offense and is wielding his power and respect with authority barking out assignment recognition to not only his offense, but the defense as well. This alone will expedite the implementation of expanding the offense. Now, he can concentrate on timing with his offense rather than having to focus on the basics. It's the maturity of the offense that is vital to its development.

Not only is Alex the focus, but what about these questions beginning with the rooks:
Davis and Iupati? They seem to be handling their own against the second teamers. I remember reading that Mitchell couldn't go anywhere against Davis. Iupati seems to be able to "pull" well, too. Basically, both have met or exceeded expectations concerning how quickly they could assimilate. They are doing just fine.

Mays?--Seems to be handling the adjustment well and seems to be covering well, too. I know, it is against the third teamers, but coverage is as coverage does.

Bowman? Where does he fit? Manusky is using him as MIKE and TED. What I have read pleases me. It seems as though he really has a nose for the ball and can use his speed inside to blitz. Based on his limited clips, you can see him slice and dice in the backfield to get to the ball. I believe this guy is the steal of the draft given expectations and draft placement, a 1st rd talent in the 3rd.

Dixon? Well one thing is for sure, this kids brings it ALL all the time. He simply burned out and the coaches didn't want to continue his diminishing stamina. Still, he seems to be what the coaches wanted, a big boy with speed and hands. He will compliment Gore and Coffee very well. No combo of Thunder and lightening. Instead, its Thunder, Thunder, and Thunder! I like it a lot especially in the 4th!

Williams? Nice catch! Another sixth rd WR who can immediately contribute. He will be invaluable in the Slot and ST. Like they said, we don't have a WR with his skill set and he's getting valuable time in the slot, too. He even said he feels natural there. With more practice in fielding punts, he will get acclimated to the winds for more concentration.

Vann? He's my hope for the team. I like it that he made some plays on defense and that he stayed later to practice catching punts when everyone else left. That's how you make the team and demonstrate the work ethic necessary to succeed in the NFL. I really hope he shows more in TC!

Ginn? Hey, he muffed some, but came back strong. He needs to work with Davis catching after practice...over and over and over. Still, his speed will allow us to spread the defense as they will have to respect the edge. Just the fact that he can fly will allow others to get open in the middle or short. I still think he was a great addition for the price.

All in all, it looks like we are on pace or just exceeding it a bit. We are definitely not behind this year so that in itself is a bonus.

I can't wait to see these guys in pads. One thing is for certain, Coach Singletary is beaming about these kids. You remember 1981 and 1986 when the rookies dictated the "feel" of camp, young and full of energy. I think we are about to see the same from this class.

I can't wait to see Davis and Iupati doing nutcracker drills

Blind homerism, at it's finest.

Why do you say that??

Just too much optimism for me to handle at this time of the year. To say anyone is doing anything "well" at this point solely by reading OTA reports is kind of ridiculous. Marcus Maxwell did "well" at OTA's.

It's fine to be excited about the team, but to say "Kyle Williams will be invaluable" and that Dixon "brings it ALL the time" ... well, you're drinking some mighty Kool-Aid at this point in the offseason. Lots of crowning going on.

My response had nothing to do with the "Davis doing nutcracker drills" btw.

Originally posted by NickSh49:

Originally posted by Kolohe:

Originally posted by NickSh49:

Originally posted by lamontb:

Originally posted by ninertico:
After reading all the info on our OTA's, seeing the pics and videos and listening to NFL analysts, I see some definite improvement on our squad especially the offense. I see that Alex Smith finally has total control of this offense and is wielding his power and respect with authority barking out assignment recognition to not only his offense, but the defense as well. This alone will expedite the implementation of expanding the offense. Now, he can concentrate on timing with his offense rather than having to focus on the basics. It's the maturity of the offense that is vital to its development.

Not only is Alex the focus, but what about these questions beginning with the rooks:
Davis and Iupati? They seem to be handling their own against the second teamers. I remember reading that Mitchell couldn't go anywhere against Davis. Iupati seems to be able to "pull" well, too. Basically, both have met or exceeded expectations concerning how quickly they could assimilate. They are doing just fine.

Mays?--Seems to be handling the adjustment well and seems to be covering well, too. I know, it is against the third teamers, but coverage is as coverage does.

Bowman? Where does he fit? Manusky is using him as MIKE and TED. What I have read pleases me. It seems as though he really has a nose for the ball and can use his speed inside to blitz. Based on his limited clips, you can see him slice and dice in the backfield to get to the ball. I believe this guy is the steal of the draft given expectations and draft placement, a 1st rd talent in the 3rd.

Dixon? Well one thing is for sure, this kids brings it ALL all the time. He simply burned out and the coaches didn't want to continue his diminishing stamina. Still, he seems to be what the coaches wanted, a big boy with speed and hands. He will compliment Gore and Coffee very well. No combo of Thunder and lightening. Instead, its Thunder, Thunder, and Thunder! I like it a lot especially in the 4th!

Williams? Nice catch! Another sixth rd WR who can immediately contribute. He will be invaluable in the Slot and ST. Like they said, we don't have a WR with his skill set and he's getting valuable time in the slot, too. He even said he feels natural there. With more practice in fielding punts, he will get acclimated to the winds for more concentration.

Vann? He's my hope for the team. I like it that he made some plays on defense and that he stayed later to practice catching punts when everyone else left. That's how you make the team and demonstrate the work ethic necessary to succeed in the NFL. I really hope he shows more in TC!

Ginn? Hey, he muffed some, but came back strong. He needs to work with Davis catching after practice...over and over and over. Still, his speed will allow us to spread the defense as they will have to respect the edge. Just the fact that he can fly will allow others to get open in the middle or short. I still think he was a great addition for the price.

All in all, it looks like we are on pace or just exceeding it a bit. We are definitely not behind this year so that in itself is a bonus.

I can't wait to see these guys in pads. One thing is for certain, Coach Singletary is beaming about these kids. You remember 1981 and 1986 when the rookies dictated the "feel" of camp, young and full of energy. I think we are about to see the same from this class.

I can't wait to see Davis and Iupati doing nutcracker drills

Blind homerism, at it's finest.

Why do you say that??

Just too much optimism for me to handle at this time of the year. To say anyone is doing anything "well" at this point solely by reading OTA reports is kind of ridiculous. Marcus Maxwell did "well" at OTA's.

It's fine to be excited about the team, but to say "Kyle Williams will be invaluable" and that Dixon "brings it ALL the time" ... well, you're drinking some mighty Kool-Aid at this point in the offseason. Lots of crowning going on.

My response had nothing to do with the "Davis doing nutcracker drills" btw.

Oh in that case I have to agree with you, because your right, its pretty hard to gauge most players without the pads on and without it being open to the public. But nonetheless Tico is just offering up his opinion, sure he might be overly optimistic at some points, but at this point in the season that's mostly all we got to go by.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by foreign49er:


I think you're getting a little too defensive and I'm not sure what I said to set you off, settle down and lets talk some football. You think the combination of Solari and the offensive continuity will be enough?

Please forgive the cadence here...

I'm not frustrated but I've read a lot of warranted criticism about the team. However, I strongly believe the "run run pass punt" simply isn't one of them with Smith at QB. I think its an over-simplification of the real 49er problems on offense. I agree with you that blocking for either run or pass wasn't consistent so why then expose your QB the more with a 3 wide set leaving Adam Snyder to block for you? I think the solutions you propose aren't as simple as just running that particular play. I think it required more than what the team could consistently execute last year.

Sorry if this came across as defensive.

So, in your mind, what will fix the problems this year? I'm offering these suggestions because, from what I'm hearing out of OTA's(even though it's only OTAs) we are doing the exact same things we were last year on offense. From what I saw last year, that offensive game-plan is very one-dimensional and imo if we were able to spread the field a bit it would be a nice change-of-pace. Any offense that becomes too predictable becomes easy to stop imo.

I agree with not leaving Snyder to block alone, why I would suggest keeping Gore in the backfield to block or putting Smith in the shotgun. They brought in the best OL coach in the league and spent two first round picks on the OL but it's impossible to put somebody in the slot for a 5 yard route because Smith won't have time? You make it seem as though it's impossible and I guess I don't understand what's so impossible about it.

Originally posted by NickSh49:

Originally posted by Kolohe:

Originally posted by NickSh49:

Originally posted by lamontb:

Originally posted by ninertico:
After reading all the info on our OTA's, seeing the pics and videos and listening to NFL analysts, I see some definite improvement on our squad especially the offense. I see that Alex Smith finally has total control of this offense and is wielding his power and respect with authority barking out assignment recognition to not only his offense, but the defense as well. This alone will expedite the implementation of expanding the offense. Now, he can concentrate on timing with his offense rather than having to focus on the basics. It's the maturity of the offense that is vital to its development.

Not only is Alex the focus, but what about these questions beginning with the rooks:
Davis and Iupati? They seem to be handling their own against the second teamers. I remember reading that Mitchell couldn't go anywhere against Davis. Iupati seems to be able to "pull" well, too. Basically, both have met or exceeded expectations concerning how quickly they could assimilate. They are doing just fine.

Mays?--Seems to be handling the adjustment well and seems to be covering well, too. I know, it is against the third teamers, but coverage is as coverage does.

Bowman? Where does he fit? Manusky is using him as MIKE and TED. What I have read pleases me. It seems as though he really has a nose for the ball and can use his speed inside to blitz. Based on his limited clips, you can see him slice and dice in the backfield to get to the ball. I believe this guy is the steal of the draft given expectations and draft placement, a 1st rd talent in the 3rd.

Dixon? Well one thing is for sure, this kids brings it ALL all the time. He simply burned out and the coaches didn't want to continue his diminishing stamina. Still, he seems to be what the coaches wanted, a big boy with speed and hands. He will compliment Gore and Coffee very well. No combo of Thunder and lightening. Instead, its Thunder, Thunder, and Thunder! I like it a lot especially in the 4th!

Williams? Nice catch! Another sixth rd WR who can immediately contribute. He will be invaluable in the Slot and ST. Like they said, we don't have a WR with his skill set and he's getting valuable time in the slot, too. He even said he feels natural there. With more practice in fielding punts, he will get acclimated to the winds for more concentration.

Vann? He's my hope for the team. I like it that he made some plays on defense and that he stayed later to practice catching punts when everyone else left. That's how you make the team and demonstrate the work ethic necessary to succeed in the NFL. I really hope he shows more in TC!

Ginn? Hey, he muffed some, but came back strong. He needs to work with Davis catching after practice...over and over and over. Still, his speed will allow us to spread the defense as they will have to respect the edge. Just the fact that he can fly will allow others to get open in the middle or short. I still think he was a great addition for the price.

All in all, it looks like we are on pace or just exceeding it a bit. We are definitely not behind this year so that in itself is a bonus.

I can't wait to see these guys in pads. One thing is for certain, Coach Singletary is beaming about these kids. You remember 1981 and 1986 when the rookies dictated the "feel" of camp, young and full of energy. I think we are about to see the same from this class.

I can't wait to see Davis and Iupati doing nutcracker drills

Blind homerism, at it's finest.

Why do you say that??

Just too much optimism for me to handle at this time of the year. To say anyone is doing anything "well" at this point solely by reading OTA reports is kind of ridiculous. Marcus Maxwell did "well" at OTA's.

It's fine to be excited about the team, but to say "Kyle Williams will be invaluable" and that Dixon "brings it ALL the time" ... well, you're drinking some mighty Kool-Aid at this point in the offseason. Lots of crowning going on.

My response had nothing to do with the "Davis doing nutcracker drills" btw.

Frickin' ay, a guy can't be optimistic w/o the "Kool-aid" or "crowning" BS. I can't enjoy my team? I can't be pumped about the OTA's or specific players?



This is a 49er forum? We as fans root for our team, right? So why get your 49er panties in a bunch?

The bottom line is I have some serious hope and a vision as to where these kids I mentioned will end up. Williams will be invaluable because of his "type" of WR, we don't have a true slot and he catches punts which happen to the be the best amongst the four PRs. And the Dixon comment is just a relay of what the media have mentioned and what I discerned from all of it given his scouting reports. He tweeked something and wanted to continue, but the coaches told him no. He will be a true wrecking ball when the time comes and he too will be invaluable.

This rookie class as I said before is one that Singletary enjoyed over the last few practices, he said it not me. I get pumped up when any amount of positive feedback comes our way. I believe that this squad is different and I am very excited about the immediate future.

I hear where you are coming from because every year I have some negative "yahoo" wanting to pee on my cheerios.



Oh wait, IT'S THE FRICKIN' OFF-SEASON!!! GET OVER IT!!!

Let a brother rejoice...PPPPPPPlllllleeease.

Originally posted by ninertico:

Originally posted by NickSh49:

Originally posted by Kolohe:

Originally posted by NickSh49:

Originally posted by lamontb:

Originally posted by ninertico:
After reading all the info on our OTA's, seeing the pics and videos and listening to NFL analysts, I see some definite improvement on our squad especially the offense. I see that Alex Smith finally has total control of this offense and is wielding his power and respect with authority barking out assignment recognition to not only his offense, but the defense as well. This alone will expedite the implementation of expanding the offense. Now, he can concentrate on timing with his offense rather than having to focus on the basics. It's the maturity of the offense that is vital to its development.

Not only is Alex the focus, but what about these questions beginning with the rooks:
Davis and Iupati? They seem to be handling their own against the second teamers. I remember reading that Mitchell couldn't go anywhere against Davis. Iupati seems to be able to "pull" well, too. Basically, both have met or exceeded expectations concerning how quickly they could assimilate. They are doing just fine.

Mays?--Seems to be handling the adjustment well and seems to be covering well, too. I know, it is against the third teamers, but coverage is as coverage does.

Bowman? Where does he fit? Manusky is using him as MIKE and TED. What I have read pleases me. It seems as though he really has a nose for the ball and can use his speed inside to blitz. Based on his limited clips, you can see him slice and dice in the backfield to get to the ball. I believe this guy is the steal of the draft given expectations and draft placement, a 1st rd talent in the 3rd.

Dixon? Well one thing is for sure, this kids brings it ALL all the time. He simply burned out and the coaches didn't want to continue his diminishing stamina. Still, he seems to be what the coaches wanted, a big boy with speed and hands. He will compliment Gore and Coffee very well. No combo of Thunder and lightening. Instead, its Thunder, Thunder, and Thunder! I like it a lot especially in the 4th!

Williams? Nice catch! Another sixth rd WR who can immediately contribute. He will be invaluable in the Slot and ST. Like they said, we don't have a WR with his skill set and he's getting valuable time in the slot, too. He even said he feels natural there. With more practice in fielding punts, he will get acclimated to the winds for more concentration.

Vann? He's my hope for the team. I like it that he made some plays on defense and that he stayed later to practice catching punts when everyone else left. That's how you make the team and demonstrate the work ethic necessary to succeed in the NFL. I really hope he shows more in TC!

Ginn? Hey, he muffed some, but came back strong. He needs to work with Davis catching after practice...over and over and over. Still, his speed will allow us to spread the defense as they will have to respect the edge. Just the fact that he can fly will allow others to get open in the middle or short. I still think he was a great addition for the price.

All in all, it looks like we are on pace or just exceeding it a bit. We are definitely not behind this year so that in itself is a bonus.

I can't wait to see these guys in pads. One thing is for certain, Coach Singletary is beaming about these kids. You remember 1981 and 1986 when the rookies dictated the "feel" of camp, young and full of energy. I think we are about to see the same from this class.

I can't wait to see Davis and Iupati doing nutcracker drills

Blind homerism, at it's finest.

Why do you say that??

Just too much optimism for me to handle at this time of the year. To say anyone is doing anything "well" at this point solely by reading OTA reports is kind of ridiculous. Marcus Maxwell did "well" at OTA's.

It's fine to be excited about the team, but to say "Kyle Williams will be invaluable" and that Dixon "brings it ALL the time" ... well, you're drinking some mighty Kool-Aid at this point in the offseason. Lots of crowning going on.

My response had nothing to do with the "Davis doing nutcracker drills" btw.

Frickin' ay, a guy can't be optimistic w/o the "Kool-aid" or "crowning" BS. I can't enjoy my team? I can't be pumped about the OTA's or specific players?



This is a 49er forum? We as fans root for our team, right? So why get your 49er panties in a bunch?

The bottom line is I have some serious hope and a vision as to where these kids I mentioned will end up. Williams will be invaluable because of his "type" of WR, we don't have a true slot and he catches punts which happen to the be the best amongst the four PRs. And the Dixon comment is just a relay of what the media have mentioned and what I discerned from all of it given his scouting reports. He tweeked something and wanted to continue, but the coaches told him no. He will be a true wrecking ball when the time comes and he too will be invaluable.

This rookie class as I said before is one that Singletary enjoyed over the last few practices, he said it not me. I get pumped up when any amount of positive feedback comes our way. I believe that this squad is different and I am very excited about the immediate future.

I hear where you are coming from because every year I have some negative "yahoo" wanting to pee on my cheerios.



Oh wait, IT'S THE FRICKIN' OFF-SEASON!!! GET OVER IT!!!

Let a brother rejoice...PPPPPPPlllllleeease.

Lemme put it this way... I hope you are right on all accounts.

Wrong thread.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by foreign49er:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by foreign49er:


I think you're getting a little too defensive and I'm not sure what I said to set you off, settle down and lets talk some football. You think the combination of Solari and the offensive continuity will be enough?

Please forgive the cadence here...

I'm not frustrated but I've read a lot of warranted criticism about the team. However, I strongly believe the "run run pass punt" simply isn't one of them with Smith at QB. I think its an over-simplification of the real 49er problems on offense. I agree with you that blocking for either run or pass wasn't consistent so why then expose your QB the more with a 3 wide set leaving Adam Snyder to block for you? I think the solutions you propose aren't as simple as just running that particular play. I think it required more than what the team could consistently execute last year.

Sorry if this came across as defensive.

So, in your mind, what will fix the problems this year? I'm offering these suggestions because, from what I'm hearing out of OTA's(even though it's only OTAs) we are doing the exact same things we were last year on offense. From what I saw last year, that offensive game-plan is very one-dimensional and imo if we were able to spread the field a bit it would be a nice change-of-pace. Any offense that becomes too predictable becomes easy to stop imo.

I agree with not leaving Snyder to block alone, why I would suggest keeping Gore in the backfield to block or putting Smith in the shotgun. They brought in the best OL coach in the league and spent two first round picks on the OL but it's impossible to put somebody in the slot for a 5 yard route because Smith won't have time? You make it seem as though it's impossible and I guess I don't understand what's so impossible about it.

This is where we disagree. I don't think our offense was one dimensional evidenced by sending a TE to the Pro Bowl who tied the season record for receptions by a TE. We had a rookie WR who in just 11 games had 625 yards and 48 receptions with no training camp and just flying by the seat of his pants. I think we attempted or would have liked to do some things on offense but was very limited by an inability to execute. I don't think what you're suggesting is impossible, I just don't think the team was able to execute it consistently. I don't think Solari is the "best OL coach in the league" but he's one of the better OL coaches and will help with getting the guys to block a bit better than they have. I'm looking forward to him improving our blocking.

We did have players in the slot last season, and I guess your suggestion assumes the talent in the slot is good enough to get open on a consistent basis and it's again something we can execute without turning the ball over (slot throwing to a high traffic area in the middle of the field).

When we go 3-wide it would most likely mean Davis is on the sidelines. I don't know if that's something the coaches will regularly buy given he was our most consistent scoring threat. Furthermore, slot only becomes effective when your outside receivers pose a significant threat (I'm assuming by your suggestion above, a slot receiver will run some sort of crossing route verses some versions of a deep(er) seam route or skinny post)

IMHO, my suggestion would be to continue to refine what they attempted to do last season (balance) rather than focusing on trying something new. I like the idea of refining a few set of bread-and-butter plays that have a very high-percentage effectiveness against an defense than 1,000 plays that are half-assed practiced/executed on Sundays. I'm from the school of "keep doing it until they stop it, then branch out". Being unpredictable shouldn't, IMHO, outweigh the ability to effectively execute.

I agree, I am not asking for 4 WR sets with Alex in the Shotgun, with deep bombs left and right. What happens when running out of a power formation (sorry, 21 personnel) fails? Do we then decide to spread the field (3WR, 1TE, 1HB) more? So instead of having a back-up plan that we've learned to execute in the off-season we're going to change mid-season? I'd prefer to have a back-up plan in case the run doesn't work, in case we run into the exact same scenario we had last year.

Yes we have a lot of weapons in the passing game, as you mentioned, exactly why I'd like to see them used more. You assume that Vernon would be taken off the field. Why? Wouldn't we be replacing Norris with a WR(as I mentioned)? Whoever is in the slot (Jones, Hill, Williams, Ginn) has the ability to stretch the field also, they don't just need to run curls and slant, they could run seams and take defenders with them, clearing out space for Vernon and Crabtree underneath. Why not get creative and even try Crabtree in the slot? Isn't his main asset his abilities after the catch and his ability to go get the ball?


I'm not expecting to see the 49ers do that but my point is, why are we boxing ourselves in offensively? It's almost like we're determined not to be creative. I completely agree, I want balance. I didn't see balance last year, I essentially saw 4 formations and many times I was able to call the play out before it happened it was that predictable. If there's no space up the middle and our run-game fails again, then do we start to try something else? I'm from the school of, I'd rather have a back-up plan before I go in than have to think of one on the fly.

I also want them to refine a few plays, I never asked for 1,000 plays. Maybe I'm wrong and they're designing creative plays and I'll be blown away come game 1. Imo though, I'm going to be watching the game anticipating every move Jimmy Raye makes. And if I know what he's going to do, I'd imagine the other team does too. In the NFL executions is a minimum requirement, not a luxury that wins big games. The Saints and Colts (two teams you mentioned as big passing teams) won the Super Bowl because their run games were superb in the playoffs. They had a dangerous passing game and a deadly run game, we only have a deadly run game. Do you understand my concerns here? I'm not saying we need to adopt those teams' play-books but we have to acknowledge, imo, that we need to be able to do 2 things well not just 1 (in the even that 1 gets shut-down).

From what I understand, this is where we disagree. I believe they need to be more creative and you believe they were already creative enough, they just didn't have the right pieces. I'm not convinced yet but then again I've yet to see them play a game. I hope you're right because that would mean a deep playoff run, I'm just nervous that I'm right and this team will be hindered by a stubborn coaching staff.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by foreign49er:


From what I understand, this is where we disagree. I believe they need to be more creative and you believe they were already creative enough, they just didn't have the right pieces. I'm not convinced yet but then again I've yet to see them play a game. I hope you're right because that would mean a deep playoff run, I'm just nervous that I'm right and this team will be hindered by a stubborn coaching staff.

Please forgive my being defensive, but this is not what I'm saying at all. I'm not saying they're already creative. I'm saying you have to learn how to walk before you can run. The team needs to be able to understand how to consistently execute successful plays against a defense, maintain drives, etc before they'll be able to consistently throw a WR in the slot in a 3-WIDE set. Doing something "creative" on offense IMHO, is only effective when you've proven you can do hurt a defense on the basics. You're countering their response. We haven't yet proven we can do the "non-creative" stuff yet. Every offense has a staple, and identity. The 49ers need on before they can innovate scheme.

Just my 2 cents.

Fair enough. I'm not saying they need to consistently go into a 3-wide set, I'd love to see them run all over a defense, but I would like to see it be considered as an alternative in case the run isn't working. I don't see a lot of thought going into, "what if this doesn't go exactly as planned" on offense and it's worrying. Nothing I can do about it though.

Originally posted by foreign49er:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by foreign49er:


From what I understand, this is where we disagree. I believe they need to be more creative and you believe they were already creative enough, they just didn't have the right pieces. I'm not convinced yet but then again I've yet to see them play a game. I hope you're right because that would mean a deep playoff run, I'm just nervous that I'm right and this team will be hindered by a stubborn coaching staff.

Please forgive my being defensive, but this is not what I'm saying at all. I'm not saying they're already creative. I'm saying you have to learn how to walk before you can run. The team needs to be able to understand how to consistently execute successful plays against a defense, maintain drives, etc before they'll be able to consistently throw a WR in the slot in a 3-WIDE set. Doing something "creative" on offense IMHO, is only effective when you've proven you can do hurt a defense on the basics. You're countering their response. We haven't yet proven we can do the "non-creative" stuff yet. Every offense has a staple, and identity. The 49ers need on before they can innovate scheme.

Just my 2 cents.

Fair enough. I'm not saying they need to consistently go into a 3-wide set, I'd love to see them run all over a defense, but I would like to see it be considered as an alternative in case the run isn't working. I don't see a lot of thought going into, "what if this doesn't go exactly as planned" on offense and it's worrying. Nothing I can do about it though.

All you have to do is look at last year homie. Now you might not like what you see but it was apparent that the smash mouth wasn't working thus they inserted Smith and the spread. Problem is it took to dam long to realize that. So the thing is how soon do they pull the plug on that this year. Or do they come out with the spread, and smash mouth meshed together to keep defensive off balance. It can't be like last year where the team had 2 separate offensive identities. Which lead to a lot of predictability. The progression of this offense has to mainly be from overly predictable to having some form of disguise. I have no problem with smash mouth, but I want to see how they compliment the smash mouth b/c this is a passing league 1st, and foremost. Gotta be able to burn the defense out of all formations instead of it being run 98% of the time when set up in traditional run offensive sets. and conversely when in the spread the team needs to utilize Gore or quick passes to keep the defense from setting back in coverage and overloading the A gap's and blitzing right up the middle.

More for your viewing pleasure...

Originally posted by foreign49er:
In the NFL executions is a minimum requirement, not a luxury that wins big games. The Saints and Colts (two teams you mentioned as big passing teams) won the Super Bowl because their run games were superb in the playoffs. They had a dangerous passing game and a deadly run game, we only have a deadly run game.

Just for the record, the Saints got to the Super Bowl and then won it primarily because two dangerous quarterbacks made uncharacteristic bonehead plays (interceptions on really bad throws), Favre when the game would almost certainly have been won on an easy field goal in the next few seconds, and Manning on a drive that would have at least tied the game, as it was pretty clear that the exhausted Saints defense had no answer to the Colts' offense. Though it does validate your statement that execution is probably the most important determinant of success in the game.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by lamontb:

Originally posted by foreign49er:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by foreign49er:


From what I understand, this is where we disagree. I believe they need to be more creative and you believe they were already creative enough, they just didn't have the right pieces. I'm not convinced yet but then again I've yet to see them play a game. I hope you're right because that would mean a deep playoff run, I'm just nervous that I'm right and this team will be hindered by a stubborn coaching staff.

Please forgive my being defensive, but this is not what I'm saying at all. I'm not saying they're already creative. I'm saying you have to learn how to walk before you can run. The team needs to be able to understand how to consistently execute successful plays against a defense, maintain drives, etc before they'll be able to consistently throw a WR in the slot in a 3-WIDE set. Doing something "creative" on offense IMHO, is only effective when you've proven you can do hurt a defense on the basics. You're countering their response. We haven't yet proven we can do the "non-creative" stuff yet. Every offense has a staple, and identity. The 49ers need on before they can innovate scheme.

Just my 2 cents.

Fair enough. I'm not saying they need to consistently go into a 3-wide set, I'd love to see them run all over a defense, but I would like to see it be considered as an alternative in case the run isn't working. I don't see a lot of thought going into, "what if this doesn't go exactly as planned" on offense and it's worrying. Nothing I can do about it though.

All you have to do is look at last year homie. Now you might not like what you see but it was apparent that the smash mouth wasn't working thus they inserted Smith and the spread. Problem is it took to dam long to realize that. So the thing is how soon do they pull the plug on that this year. Or do they come out with the spread, and smash mouth meshed together to keep defensive off balance. It can't be like last year where the team had 2 separate offensive identities. Which lead to a lot of predictability. The progression of this offense has to mainly be from overly predictable to having some form of disguise. I have no problem with smash mouth, but I want to see how they compliment the smash mouth b/c this is a passing league 1st, and foremost. Gotta be able to burn the defense out of all formations instead of it being run 98% of the time when set up in traditional run offensive sets. and conversely when in the spread the team needs to utilize Gore or quick passes to keep the defense from setting back in coverage and overloading the A gap's and blitzing right up the middle.

Good discussion lamontb ....

I think the bigger question is "why wasn't smash mouth working?" I think regardless of offensive philosophy you must have the personnel to run it. Agreed you must burn the defense when they overload to stop one approach or the other - this is just as true for passing as for running as you pointed out. I just wanted us to get away from the "smash mouth is inherently bad" assumption because there are teams that have that philosophy and win consistently with it.

What Singletary wanted and what his guys could actually do were two different things. I chalk it up to a new OC being told "run this offense" and Raye saying "oh sure man I can do it" without really knowing the talent level he had. This is where I'm so hard on the position coaches, particularly Forester. If it's true that Singletary had so much respect for Forester, then when does he say in the off-season "hey coach, we don't have the horses to run this kind of offense."

I think for the first time in quite a long time, we have the OC who's actually much more familiar with the talent level and understands their strengths and weaknesses - why I think Hill was replaced mid-season. The offense was stalling not simply because they were predictable but also because Hill couldn't take advantage of the defense as much as Smith could. WCO vs Digit System (Dallas Cowboys 90's-style).

It can work, you just need a lot more talent than we had on the OL. Will it change this season up front? I hopeful because IMHO, Forester didn't innovate (it's not all on the OC). If blocking improves just by 10 percent on 3rd downs, the 49ers sustain drives that will win them games (on offense). I'm hopeful.

You make some excellent points GM.

The lack of talent on the OL, plus their inablity to execute consistently (talent and coaching deficiencies) caused them to have to abandon the pro set offense and go to what appeared to be a spread offense. It became the only way to move the chains.

The problem was the OL talent and the OL execution, though, not the origninal scheme. Too often we saw the failure to just get any positive yardage, much less a two or three yard gain, on a run play last season.

Raye should be given some credit for being able to adjust, midseason, and run the spread.

The spread won't work long term, though, because its too one dimensional. Teams double Crabs and VD, stunt on Rachal and Snyder, and Smith then has to bail out and run right . . . and you know the rest.

It comes down to OL play, and credit Singletary, and Raye, for seeing that and making moves to improve the OL. Solari and Brown may prove to be a Godsend. The fact that Solari and Raye worked together before at KC should help.

I think your analysis shows alot of thought and insight. Thank you.