Is Manny Lawson Onboard with the 49ers New Culture?

Originally posted by NCommand:
Obviously not given he was pulled last year from the Hybrid defense and this year for the pass rush downs. He's not a "complete SAM" and that's pretty well stated throughout this post. Could he become a dominant and complete SAM? There is no evidence to suggest this esp. in the main responsibility of the SAM (and WILL) and that is the pass rush.

He's not a complete Sam because it's been said in this post? LOL. Like anything could matter less.

Originally posted by NCommand:
In short, give me some evidence for why you think Manny will suddenly become a #1 dominant pass rusher (QB pressures, hits forced fumbles, etc.), #2 remains excellent against the run and sets the edge & #3 drops back in zones effectively and sniffs out screens and boxes in speedy RB's out of the backfield (TE's are NOT his assignments). Just curious, my friend.

I don't think he needs to be a dominant passrusher, just a very good one. I don't think he ever will be dominant but I think he's already pretty good and he's gotten better at it every year he's played (he's only played three seasons) despite not being asked to rush the passer much his rookie year or 2008, and not too much in 2009. And well, to be an all around high quality Sam LB, that is more than good enough to get the job done if your #2 and #3 criteria has been met, which Manny does.

Given he has gotten better every year, and actually has produced a consistent passrush when actually asked to, there is no reason he wouldn't be able to continue to improve at it and put up better numbers if Manusky leaves him for more snaps.

It sounds like you want a perfect player. You want the Sam linebacker that knows every play before the ball is snapped, is the best passrusher in the league, NEVER makes a mistake or is out of position, and can cover receivers like Champ Bailey. That guy has not been born yet, sir.

I also wonder who you point to that you want Manny to be. What dominant passrushing OLB is there in the NFL right now that also gets TFLs, sets the edge, blocks punts and FGs, and can drop back into coverage like Manny. Was Julien Peterson not good enough either? Just wondering...

Originally posted by Wodwo:
First, we'll have to agree to disagree that pass rush is the main responsibility of the SAM position. We've discussed that already and while we both agree it would be ideal to have both sides dominate rushing the QB, we disagree about the importance of the role relative to the WILL...

Gentlemen, let's just agree to disagree on this matter and for the teams sake, I genuinely hope you are right!

I've already shown evidence that 3-4 OLB's are the main contributors in the total teams sacks, QB pressures, hits, etc. This is more of a "duh" statement equal to saying Willis will lead the team in tackles each year; that's how the defense is designed and in particular, what his position requires as a #1 responsibility. I showed you that Lawson and Haralson both pass rushed more then anything last year (788 combined snaps) and of the combined (752) plays they defended the run, how many of them were initially pass rush plays where they were forced to stop the run instead?

So yes, the #1 priority of both the SAM and WILL is to pass rush and while pass rushing, recognize the play and adjust (to a run, screen pass, cover the RB out in flat) and finally, to confuse the QB, drop back in zone coverage while a blitz is brought from another area of the field.

The goal is to have both a SAM & a WILL (such as Pittsburgh) who collectively gathered 24 sacks combined and helped lead the league in defense last year. With THREE players at the SAM & WILL we only 18.5 and this design is way too predictable.

Originally posted by Gavintech:
...(he's only played three seasons) despite not being asked to rush the passer much his rookie year or 2008, and not too much in 2009. And well, to be an all around high quality Sam LB, that is more than good enough to get the job done if your #2 and #3 criteria has been met, which Manny does.

Given he has gotten better every year...

You need to go back and re-read my posts, my friend. It was already discussed that Manny was drafted to be a pass rusher, in his rookie year was exclusively asked to do this at the WILL position, failed miserably, was sat for a few games and then moved to the SAM permanently. That's ALL Manny was asked to do last year (was pass rush) until it became obvious he was ineffective (hence the Brooks insertion).

I have already stated that Manny is good at setting the edge and making stops but then again, the consensus around here is that Haralson is terrible at this (b/c of the Chris Johnson play) but I showed that the difference is minimal between the two versus the run and really doesn't justify NOT trying to find a true every down OLB with true pass rushing abilities (at both positions). Manny's been insignificant to below average in coverage over the past two years.

Each year Manny has played he was benched, moved from the WILL to the SAM, then was pulled in the Hybrid defense and then last year was pulled for a better pass rusher in Brooks who put up the same numbers he did with half the opportunities in much more predictable downs. He went from being an above average guy in coverage to relatively insignificant (as evidenced by passes defended, fewer snaps on passing plays, pulled completely on passing downs in the Hybrid and 3rd downs last year, we're collectively terrible on screen derfense, RB's and TE's catch balls all day out of the backfield on both sides of the field, etc.).

So, no, I don't see how you see Manny improving each year...it may be just the opposite. Let's just call it what it is - he's a good to above average player against the run on 1st and 2nd downs and will make a play here and there on special teams and in the pass rush. But he's NOT a complete OLB that is best suited for the SAM or WILL (as of today).

He CAN be upgraded for sure with a pure every down 3-4 pass rushing OLB with little, if anything lost in the run support game. You can't replace his ST play though. I'll give you that!

Originally posted by NCommand:
You need to go back and re-read my posts, my friend. It was already discussed that Manny was drafted to be a pass rusher, in his rookie year was exclusively asked to do this at the WILL position, failed miserably, was sat for a few games and then moved to the SAM permanently. That's ALL Manny was asked to do last year (was pass rush) until it became obvious he was ineffective (hence the Brooks insertion).

I don't really care what's already been discussed in a thread on a WZ, that doesn't make it a fact. I'm going to go ahead and stop reading here because you obviously have not been paying attention since you say thats ALL Manny was asked to do last year.

Originally posted by Gavintech:

Originally posted by NCommand:
You need to go back and re-read my posts, my friend. It was already discussed that Manny was drafted to be a pass rusher, in his rookie year was exclusively asked to do this at the WILL position, failed miserably, was sat for a few games and then moved to the SAM permanently. That's ALL Manny was asked to do last year (was pass rush) until it became obvious he was ineffective (hence the Brooks insertion).

I don't really care what's already been discussed in a thread on a WZ, that doesn't make it a fact. I'm going to go ahead and stop reading here because you obviously have not been paying attention since you say thats ALL Manny was asked to do last year.

Should I have said "his primary responsibility on his way to guarding against the run and pass?"

I've CLEARLY stated some opinions based on research and analysis and by closely watching and re-watching every Niner game since the dawn of time...but over the past few years, my focus has shifted from the offensive side of the ball to the defensive side of the ball and in particular, the 3-4 defense (and across the NFL). I have taken a particular interest in our 4 LB's and analyze them very closely and in particular, how Manusky uses them.

So what I'm asking you is what evidence do you put forth to support your opinion and actually, what is your opionion (in general).

You think we should upgrade the WILL position but you're fine with Manny starting at the SAM on 1st and 2nd downs and Brooks on 3rd downs? You'd like to see Manny get all the snaps and focus even more on pass rushing this year? So instead of 369 snaps as a pass rusher, say maybe 430+? You'd like to sign him to a LT contract? Think he'd be an ideal backup?

You're quick to argue my points but have yet to state your own and support it in any way. I've done the research for both of you and even supported Manny's positive attributes.

If it's just a hunch or an opinion of what you see as his current value or hope his value to be in the future, that's fine too...I just want to know what IT is from a fellow fans perspective.

...Still, the club would like to see more from Lawson, who hasn't been the pass-rush threat the team envisioned.

49ers Needs: Rising Team Lacks Star at Vital Positions

Same was said about Haralson as well. Another "duh" article.

Originally posted by NCommand:

You're quick to argue my points but have yet to state your own and support it in any way. I've done the research for both of you and even supported Manny's positive attributes.

I'm sorry... are you referring to me as well?

Considering you failed to acknowledge 90% of my last post, I think that would be a little silly....

What team other than the Steelers can you give an example of a dominant SAM pass rusher? Looking at the stats from last season, I am not finding any. As a matter of fact, Woodley is the only SAM to produce more sacks than our combination of Lawson and Brooks. Lawson alone rates well when compared to the sack numbers from other SAM LBs.

Again, seems to me the problem is with the WILL and not so much with the SAM.

Originally posted by Wodwo:
What team other than the Steelers can you give an example of a dominant SAM pass rusher? Looking at the stats from last season, I am not finding any. As a matter of fact, Woodley is the only SAM to produce more sacks than our combination of Lawson and Brooks. Lawson alone rates well when compared to the sack numbers from other SAM LBs.

Again, seems to me the problem is with the WILL and not so much with the SAM.

I thought you said you wanted to agree to disagree? N/p! Which post did you want me to respond too?

As to this question, hard to say b/c Manusky uses the SAM & WILL differently compared to most 3-4 coordinators. He tends to use them more as pseudo DE's in a more vanilla scheme up at the LOS. Most experienced 3-4 coordinators rotate their SAM and WILL's often to create confusion and attack weaknesses along the o-line. The Steelers should be our benchmark (both in execution and scheme ala Jets) b/c those two OLB's do exactly what their position calls for which allows them also to attack from other positions; this is why they generally lead the league in total sacks and total defense each year (or top 5). The Chargers and Pats used to do this as well when they were running on all cylinders, Ravens in their 3-4 (and Hybrid)...even the Cowboys move Ware all over the place. Merriman was constantly standing up, moving back and forth behind the LOS shooting gaps and Phillips was dominant.

We have "starters" now that are decent. Now we need upgrades at BOTH positions. You and I are in perfect agreement about Haralson and the WILL position but to be an elite defense, IMHO, both the SAM and WILL need to be dominant and every down players and do what the 3-4 defense is designed to do and attack and attack with disguise (hence why they drop back in zone coverage here and there). And right now, this thread is about Manny. I'd be more then happy to talk about anyone else in the front 7 if you'd like.

Don't get me wrong, having one guy such as Dumerveil at the WILL spot dominate would really open things up for all of our defense but having both the SAM and WILL dominate and produce consistently (big issue with us in pass rushing) creates an endless number of schemes Manusky can use. Having both Lawson and Haralson may have dumbed-down his blitzing scheme (or he's still growing into his own role - hard to say - perhaps a combination of both?).

Keep in mind, I'm merely focusing on what is ideal and required of these two positions in order for us to have a top 5 defense. If this was a 4-3 defense, I'd be saying the same thing about the two DE's. THIS is where the pressure is supposed to come from and come from often. Right now, our 15th ranked defense goes as they both go - average!

Originally posted by NinerGM:
NC - again, brilliant post. Remind me again not to get into an football argument with you!!!

LMAO...and likewise!

Originally posted by NCommand:


I thought you said you wanted to agree to disagree? N/p! Which post did you want me to respond too?

As to this question, hard to say b/c Manusky uses the SAM & WILL differently compared to most 3-4 coordinators. He tends to use them more as pseudo DE's in a more vanilla scheme up at the LOS. Most experienced 3-4 coordinators rotate their SAM and WILL's often to create confusion and attack weaknesses along the o-line. The Steelers should be our benchmark (both in execution and scheme ala Jets) b/c those two OLB's do exactly what their position calls for which allows them also to attack from other positions; this is why they generally lead the league in total sacks and total defense each year (or top 5). The Chargers and Pats used to do this as well when they were running on all cylinders, Ravens in their 3-4 (and Hybrid)...even the Cowboys move Ware all over the place. Merriman was constantly standing up, moving back and forth behind the LOS shooting gaps and Phillips was dominant.

We have "starters" now that are decent. Now we need upgrades at BOTH positions. You and I are in perfect agreement about Haralson and the WILL position but to be an elite defense, IMHO, both the SAM and WILL need to be dominant and every down players and do what the 3-4 defense is designed to do and attack and attack with disguise (hence why they drop back in zone coverage here and there). And right now, this thread is about Manny. I'd be more then happy to talk about anyone else in the front 7 if you'd like.

Don't get me wrong, having one guy such as Dumerveil at the WILL spot dominate would really open things up for all of our defense but having both the SAM and WILL dominate and produce consistently (big issue with us in pass rushing) creates an endless number of schemes Manusky can use. Having both Lawson and Haralson may have dumbed-down his blitzing scheme (or he's still growing into his own role - hard to say - perhaps a combination of both?).

Keep in mind, I'm merely focusing on what is ideal and required of these two positions in order for us to have a top 5 defense. If this was a 4-3 defense, I'd be saying the same thing about the two DE's. THIS is where the pressure is supposed to come from and come from often. Right now, our 15th ranked defense goes as they both go - average!

Ok, you just did a great job of avoiding answering my question.

I already agreed that the ideal would be to have dominant pass rush on both sides. I wanted you to show an example of this outside the Steelers. The only SAM you mentioned is Phillips and, I'm sorry, but I fail to see how you can consider him being dominant through his career. He's only surpassed 10 sacks once in his career and every other year he's had comparable numbers to Lawson last season.

My point is that, while having what the Steelers have is ideal, it isn't essential, and that replacing Lawson shouldn't be the priority. Getting a dominant WILL should be. The players you mention that get moved around are dominant pass rushing WILL linebackers.

Lastly, your point that in order to be an elite defense, we must have two dominant pass rushing OLBs is just bogus. Jets had no elite pass rushers. They ranked 18th in the league in sacks. They have the best corner in the league and aggressive schemed blitzes. Also, the Steeler's defense may be ranked 5th overall, but they were 3rd against the run and 16th against the pass. We're talking a difference of around 200 yards over the season between our pass defense and theirs. A total difference of about 20 yards a game both run and pass. However, we ranked 4th overall in points per game, while the Steelers were 12th. A difference of a field goal per game. The Jets had the top PPG on defense and the best pass defense and the best total yardage defense... without even one dominant pass rusher at OLB.

Originally posted by Wodwo:
Ok, you just did a great job of avoiding answering my question.

I already agreed that the ideal would be to have dominant pass rush on both sides. I wanted you to show an example of this outside the Steelers. The only SAM you mentioned is Phillips and, I'm sorry, but I fail to see how you can consider him being dominant through his career. He's only surpassed 10 sacks once in his career and every other year he's had comparable numbers to Lawson last season.

My point is that, while having what the Steelers have is ideal, it isn't essential, and that replacing Lawson shouldn't be the priority. Getting a dominant WILL should be. The players you mention that get moved around are dominant pass rushing WILL linebackers.

Lastly, your point that in order to be an elite defense, we must have two dominant pass rushing OLBs is just bogus. Jets had no elite pass rushers. They ranked 18th in the league in sacks. They have the best corner in the league and aggressive schemed blitzes. Also, the Steeler's defense may be ranked 5th overall, but they were 3rd against the run and 16th against the pass. We're talking a difference of around 200 yards over the season between our pass defense and theirs. A total difference of about 20 yards a game both run and pass. However, we ranked 4th overall in points per game, while the Steelers were 12th. A difference of a field goal per game. The Jets had the top PPG on defense and the best pass defense and the best total yardage defense... without even one dominant pass rusher at OLB.

Hey Wodwo - sorry it took me so long to get back to you. Here should be some interesting things for you...(and good points BTW)

OLB sacks (including specialists), accounts for injuries, relative to total team sacks and percentages.

Per official websites depth charts & official stats via NFL.com

Overall Defensive Ranking - Through week 17 2009 (Final Update)

#11 - Patriots:
Pierre Woods/Adalius Thomas (3)
Derrick Burgess (5)/Tully Banta-Cain (10)/Rob Ninkovich (1) = 19 of their 31 sacks (61%)

#22 - Dolphins:
Jason Taylor/Joey Porter (16)
Cameron Wake (5.5)/Quentin Moses(1)/Charlie Anderson (2)/Erik Walden (0) = 24.5 of their 44 sacks (56%)

#7 - Broncos:
Mario Haggan/Elvis Dumervil (18)
Darrell Reid (4)/Robert Ayers (0) = 22 of their 39 sacks (56%)

#5 - Steelers:
LaMarr Woodley/James Harrison (23.5)
Andre Frazier (0)/Patrick Bailey (0) = 23.5 of their 47 sacks (50%)

#2 - Packers:
Aaron Kampman/Brady Poppinga (4.5)
Jeremy Thompson (0)/Clay Matthews (10)/Brad Jones (4) = 18.5 of their 37 sacks (50%)

#30 - Chiefs:
Mike Vrabel/Tamba Hali (10.5)
Andy Studebaker (0)/Pierre Walters (0) = 10.5 of their 22 sacks (48%)

#16 - Chargers: Jamal Williams out all season
Shawne Merriman/Shaun Phillips = (11)
Marques Harris (2)/Larry English (2)/Jyles Tucker (0) = 15 of their 35 sacks (43%)

#9 - Cowboys:
DeMarcus Ware/Anthony Spencer (15)
Curtis Johnson (0)/Steve Octavien (0)/Victor Butler (3) = 18 of their 42 sacks (43%)

#3 - Ravens (Hybrid):
Terrell Suggs/Jarret Johnson (10.5)
Antwan Barnes (3)/Paul Kruger (0) = 13.5 of their 32 sacks (42%)

#20 - Cardinals:
Chike Okeafor/Clark Haggans (9.5)
Will Davis (2)/Bertrand Berry (6) = 17.5 of their 43 sacks (41%)

#15 - 49ers:
Parys Haralson/Manny Lawson (11.5)
Diyral Briggs (0)/ Ahmad Brooks (6) = 17.5 of their 44 sacks (40%)

#31 - Browns:
Kamerion Wimbley/David Bowens (12)
Jason Trusnik (2.5)/Alex Hall (0) = 14.5 of their 40 sacks (36%)

#1 - Jets:
Vernon Gholston/Bryan Thomas (2)
Calvin Pace (8)/Marques Murrell (0) = 10 of their 32 sacks (31%)

Not surprisingly, team defense goes as the OLB’s go in the 3-4 defenses just as the effectiveness of your DE’s are tied to the success of 4-3 defenses. It appears that 50% is the key number here. Teams that generate 50% or more of their sacks from the OLB positions are also ranking in the top 10 in defense with the exception of the Ravens (though they use a Hybrid defense and generate pressure from the DE’s too) and the Jets (who generate a tremendous scheme). The Cowboys were the only top 10 defense that didn’t reach the 50% but generate plenty of pressure from Ware & Spencer with 15 sacks combined. Note that there are some teams who rank low in overall defense but high in production from the OLB’s. Could that be poor scheme, major holes in talent in other areas, missing a dominant NT, etc.?

And one thing holds true as well ~ all the top 3-4 defenses have at least one dominant pass rusher at either the SAM or WILL. Even if the starter is ineffective, there tends to be another player who steps up as a specialist or starter d/t injury or other reason. So, in order to take our defense to the next level, we will need to get at least one dominant pass rusher (duh?) and continue to improve our scheme (Manusky, see Jets). As long as we maintain pressure from the other areas like we are we’ll remain an average defense but scheme and at least one dominant pass rusher should push us towards the top in 2010. I think this is why many fans want us to draft Graham and/or insert Brooks into a FT role.

Brooks helped to boost the % for us last year though we remain at the bottom. Note that our starters are putting up sack numbers that some of other team’s backups are.

You can see a down-year for some of the proven starters last year d/t key injuries and other reasons.

So to answer your question…who would I choose over Manny? Just about any starter, including some backups from the list above as most of these guys have all “proven” they can be effective and are consistent pass rushers whereas Manny never has unless you consider 6.5 sporadic sacks “proven” in 2009. Even Haralson has only proven effective coming in off the bench in limited snaps (same with Brooks). Remember, the WILL & SAM are interchangeable in most 3-4 defenses and therefore, there would be a lot of players I’d choose over Manny (and Haralson).

One more thing - what about consistency of sacks which has been a HUGE issue for our team, in general?

Manny had 6.5 sacks:
1 in week 4 against the Rams
1 in week 7 against Houston
1 in week 9 against the Titans
Brooks inserted into the lineup more here
1 in week 11 against the Packers
1 in week 12 against Jacksonville
1 in week 13 against Seattle
.5 sacks in week 17 against the Rams

Remember, 2009 was declared Manny’s year ~ his big breakout year! He was 100% healthy, we hired a pass rushing specialist coach for the OLB’s and others and gave Manny and Haralson free reign to rush the passer the mass majority of the time!

11.5 collective sacks isn’t terrible…it isn’t great either. 44 sacks IS great though so now that we are not rebuilding anymore, the goal will be to upgrade the SAM & WILL positions like the Steelers have who do not have to rely on 3rd down specialists (50% production) along with a scheme such as the Jets combined with a total sack production of the 49ers which comes mostly from the d-line, inside LB blitzes mixed in with a few CB & safety blitzes ~ that is, if we want to take the next step and improve our chances of being a top 10 defense.

Manny Lawson is in the last year of his contract and no talk about an extension has been discussed. I would not be surprised if he is traded between now and the draft.

Originally posted by susweel:
Manny Lawson is in the last year of his contract and no talk about an extension has been discussed. I would not be surprised if he is traded between now and the draft.

I have been thinking about that as well and it has been brought up before...a 4-3 team would be ideal for him and would probably get us a high draft choice. I believe if he left next year, he'd also get us a decent comp pick b/c of his 1st round draft status. playing time, along with the rest of that formula; could be wrong. What value would he be in trade talks?

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by susweel:
Manny Lawson is in the last year of his contract and no talk about an extension has been discussed. I would not be surprised if he is traded between now and the draft.

I have been thinking about that as well and it has been brought up before...a 4-3 team would be ideal for him and would probably get us a high draft choice. I believe if he left next year, he'd also get us a decent comp pick b/c of his 1st round draft status. playing time, along with the rest of that formula; could be wrong. What value would he be in trade talks?

Probably a 4th round pick at best.

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by susweel:
Manny Lawson is in the last year of his contract and no talk about an extension has been discussed. I would not be surprised if he is traded between now and the draft.

I have been thinking about that as well and it has been brought up before...a 4-3 team would be ideal for him and would probably get us a high draft choice. I believe if he left next year, he'd also get us a decent comp pick b/c of his 1st round draft status. playing time, along with the rest of that formula; could be wrong. What value would he be in trade talks?

Probably a 4th round pick at best.

That would be my guess given we just got a 1st rounder for a 5th ourselves.