The "We have to sign our guys" smoke screen

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

To your point about replacing our lost FAs, everyone you mentioned was already under contract. Baalke could have been dead since last month and the result would have been the same.

Just because I wont give credit to Baalke if we win doesn't mean I'm filled with Baalke hate. I just think he hasn't done anything, so he doesn't get credit. Now, if his draft picks do very well, then i will give him credit. But as far as the FA portion of his job discription, he currently gets an F.

^ Oakland-Niner, you edited this into your discussion with SofaKing, but I assume this was actually intended for me.

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
To your point about replacing our lost FAs, everyone you mentioned was already under contract. Baalke could have been dead since last month and the result would have been the same.

1. If our GM believes we have a capable replacement already on the roster, why would we turn to free agency for replacements? You also didn't address the fact that 4 of those holes might be filled with players we drafted (a 1st rounder, a 2nd rounder, two 3rd rounders, and a 7th rounder). Whats the point of drafting future starters if you're never gonna let them start?

2. The fact that we have replacements already on our roster shows that this was planned for. If anything, I think this shows preparation. Last year we drafted a SAFETY in the 2nd round, an INSIDE LINEBACKER in the 3rd round, and an OUTSIDE LINEBACKER with the #7 overall pick this year. We also happen to be losing a SAFETY, an INSIDE LINEBACKER, and an OUTSIDE LINEBACKER due to free agency. Coincidence?

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Just because I wont give credit to Baalke if we win doesn't mean I'm filled with Baalke hate.

Its not that you won't give credit that makes you look like a Baalke hater, its the fact that you already decided that our success will be ONLY due to Harbaugh's coaching and our failure will be due to Baalke's GM abilities. Your feelings toward Baalke are pre-determined and we haven't even played a down yet.

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
I just think he hasn't done anything, so he doesn't get credit.

1. I agree that he hasn't done anything, so he shouldn't get credit yet. But since he hasn't done anything yet, why the negativity towards him? This is the point I tried to make earlier...its too early to jump to conclusions. We don't know if he's a good/bad GM yet.

2. Its his 2nd year as our GM. What did you expect him to accomplish at this point?

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Now, if his draft picks do very well, then i will give him credit. But as far as the FA portion of his job discription, he currently gets an F.

If his draft picks do well, that means he made the right choice to lay low in free agency. Instead of signing free agents, some of our draft picks are getting a chance to play. If our picks/replacements do well, would you still give him an F for not signing players to plug holes that our replacements already filled?

[ Edited by candlestick49er on Aug 2, 2011 at 21:45:30 ]

Originally posted by jimmy49erfan:

Originally posted by 5280High:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by SofaKing:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by candlestick49er:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by candlestick49er:
Just because the players we let go were on our team the previous years doesn't necessarily mean they're "our guys". If they don't fit into the team's future plans than they aren't our guys. Maybe to our previous coaching staff they were, but obviously not under Harbaugh.

Also...

Originally posted by baltien:
you can't judge Baalke's/Harbaugh effectiveness because you haven't see the results of their decisions.

While its possible that our team gets worse with the loss of our previous starters, its also possible that our unproven players end up becoming solid (maybe even good) replacements. What if our young guys step up in their bigger roles? What if the guys we let go play poorly on their new teams? What if the free agents our fans wanted become busts? That's a lot of "what ifs", but the point is that nobody knows how this will work out in the future. If Baalke/Harbaugh's plan fails then they deserve to get criticized. But right now its still too early to determine if we're making the right/wrong moves.

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
If Baalke needs to "evaluate the current roster" he should be fired immediately. This dude was our head scout for a couple of years before taking over. Hes been with the team, he should know the talent. Just more BS from the front office.

Baalke knows our talent under Singletary's staff. Players respond differently to different coaches. Players who look good under Singletary's coaching style might not work with Harbaugh's, and players who look bad under Singletary's style might be good in Harbaugh's system. He isn't just evaluating talent itself, I'm sure he knows enough about a player's skillset. I think at this point he's projecting how the players will perform under Harbaugh and his staff.

And the excuses go on and on.

What excuses did I make? My post says 3 things:

1. Players who fit into Singletary's future plans may not fit into Harbaugh's future plans

2. Nobody knows for sure if we are making the right/wrong moves as of now (you might be right about everything but it can't be proven until we actually see it happen)

3. Baalke is evaluating our talent under a new coaching staff. If he isn't doing that, then he shouldn't be a GM. I can't believe you said he doesn't need to be evaluating the current roster. Do you honestly believe GMs should evaluate talent alone and not consider the team's system?

Once again, what excuses did I make?

I'm far too bitter to argue at this point. The bottom line is if Harbaugh can win with this team this year, it's not because we have a good front office, it's because he's that good. Trust me, if by some miracle of God we actually do ok or make the playoffs I will not be giving Baalke credit. Why should he? All he has done is let players go and not replace them. s**t, the Niners can pay me a quarter of his salary and I'll be happy to take over and do the same thing.

Honestly, I think the jury is still out if he's even a good personnel person. I'm not head over heels for any of our drafts the last few years.

I completely disagree. Harbaugh and Baalke have orchestrated this off-season in unison. If Harbaugh went to Baalke and said "I want Franklin back!" he would have done it. Harbaugh is fully on board with what Baalke is doing. It's what they BOTH have planned. If we make the playoffs Harbaugh deserves a ton of credit as does Baalke.

Name two things he gets credit for?

IF we make the playoffs the list is actually pretty long...

Harbaugh, extending VD & Willis, getting Gore back into camp without a media circus, not over paying vets who ended up getting much less attention than originally planned, sticking to his convictions even though fans and media alike are crucifying him before Free agency is even over or a regular season game has been played...

Hes being crucified because we seen this s**t before with the same losing results. Damn near 10 years of not overpaying and draft building & we still have the same problems on offense and defense. You know if they had a plan that didnt look like Ericksons, Nolans, and Sings the media and fans wouldnt be upset.

The frustration is understandable, but for some zoners its borderline obsessive hatred with no real justification towards Baalke. Theres discussion, debate and then there is hate filled rants, and the latter is just getting old and unnecessary after the 10th thread of "Baalke is teh suxorz".

The Yorks deserve much of the criticism and blame, and that is completely justified based on their track record of horrible decision making. But whether fans like it or not Baalke is here as long as Harbaugh is here. They are tied at the hip and this is a new start for the Niners. It sucks to hear that after 8 years of losing but its the truth. The Mclueless/Nolan/ Sing reign sunk this franchise for 6 years based off on the #1 pick and lack of focus to BOTH sides of the football team.

The Baalke/Harbaugh plan is now in effect and to call it a bust this early is similar to calling all first year rookies who struggle a bust. Draft picks need to develop, schemes need to be adjusted, etc.

If people will just let this whole offseason go and wait till the end of the year, then they can either say at the end of the season A) See I knew I had a better plan than these tools! or B) Holy sh*T that plan worked

Now we need to sign guys out of the whoever is left group just to fill our holes.

Originally posted by Psinex:

Originally posted by 5280High:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by 5280High:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by SofaKing:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by candlestick49er:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by candlestick49er:
Just because the players we let go were on our team the previous years doesn't necessarily mean they're "our guys". If they don't fit into the team's future plans than they aren't our guys. Maybe to our previous coaching staff they were, but obviously not under Harbaugh.

Also...

Originally posted by baltien:
you can't judge Baalke's/Harbaugh effectiveness because you haven't see the results of their decisions.

While its possible that our team gets worse with the loss of our previous starters, its also possible that our unproven players end up becoming solid (maybe even good) replacements. What if our young guys step up in their bigger roles? What if the guys we let go play poorly on their new teams? What if the free agents our fans wanted become busts? That's a lot of "what ifs", but the point is that nobody knows how this will work out in the future. If Baalke/Harbaugh's plan fails then they deserve to get criticized. But right now its still too early to determine if we're making the right/wrong moves.

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
If Baalke needs to "evaluate the current roster" he should be fired immediately. This dude was our head scout for a couple of years before taking over. Hes been with the team, he should know the talent. Just more BS from the front office.

Baalke knows our talent under Singletary's staff. Players respond differently to different coaches. Players who look good under Singletary's coaching style might not work with Harbaugh's, and players who look bad under Singletary's style might be good in Harbaugh's system. He isn't just evaluating talent itself, I'm sure he knows enough about a player's skillset. I think at this point he's projecting how the players will perform under Harbaugh and his staff.

And the excuses go on and on.

What excuses did I make? My post says 3 things:

1. Players who fit into Singletary's future plans may not fit into Harbaugh's future plans

2. Nobody knows for sure if we are making the right/wrong moves as of now (you might be right about everything but it can't be proven until we actually see it happen)

3. Baalke is evaluating our talent under a new coaching staff. If he isn't doing that, then he shouldn't be a GM. I can't believe you said he doesn't need to be evaluating the current roster. Do you honestly believe GMs should evaluate talent alone and not consider the team's system?

Once again, what excuses did I make?

I'm far too bitter to argue at this point. The bottom line is if Harbaugh can win with this team this year, it's not because we have a good front office, it's because he's that good. Trust me, if by some miracle of God we actually do ok or make the playoffs I will not be giving Baalke credit. Why should he? All he has done is let players go and not replace them. s**t, the Niners can pay me a quarter of his salary and I'll be happy to take over and do the same thing.

Honestly, I think the jury is still out if he's even a good personnel person. I'm not head over heels for any of our drafts the last few years.

I completely disagree. Harbaugh and Baalke have orchestrated this off-season in unison. If Harbaugh went to Baalke and said "I want Franklin back!" he would have done it. Harbaugh is fully on board with what Baalke is doing. It's what they BOTH have planned. If we make the playoffs Harbaugh deserves a ton of credit as does Baalke.

Name two things he gets credit for?

IF we make the playoffs the list is actually pretty long...

Harbaugh, extending VD & Willis, getting Gore back into camp without a media circus, [b]not over paying vets who ended up getting much less attention than originally planned, sticking to his convictions even though fans and media alike are crucifying him before Free agency is even over or a regular season game has been played...

[/b]

This post is full of speculation.

Uh yeah... the quote you originally highlighted "If we make the playoffs Harbaugh deserves a ton of credit as does Baalke" was based on speculation, and you asked what he would then deserve credit for in the event this big "IF" happens. If you highlight a quote based on an "IF" any response given would then be based on speculation.

Ah, no. He is speculating that;

Harbaugh wouldn't of come here if Baalke wasn't the GM.

Baalke was the primary force for getting Frank back into camp. The articles today make it seem as if Harbaugh was the primary reason, not to mention Gore loves the gam. And trust, the circus would have started if it lasted too much longer.

I still dont think you can give Baalke props for letting guys walk when he did nothing to replace them. Also, I dont think over paying would of been an issue based on the contracts signed. To be honest, I really dont care if the Yorks pocket an extra 10 million a year for "not over paying." We have more than enough cap space.

[ Edited by Oakland-Niner on Aug 2, 2011 at 21:34:06 ]

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by 5280High:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by 5280High:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by SofaKing:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by candlestick49er:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by candlestick49er:
Just because the players we let go were on our team the previous years doesn't necessarily mean they're "our guys". If they don't fit into the team's future plans than they aren't our guys. Maybe to our previous coaching staff they were, but obviously not under Harbaugh.

Also...

Originally posted by baltien:
you can't judge Baalke's/Harbaugh effectiveness because you haven't see the results of their decisions.

While its possible that our team gets worse with the loss of our previous starters, its also possible that our unproven players end up becoming solid (maybe even good) replacements. What if our young guys step up in their bigger roles? What if the guys we let go play poorly on their new teams? What if the free agents our fans wanted become busts? That's a lot of "what ifs", but the point is that nobody knows how this will work out in the future. If Baalke/Harbaugh's plan fails then they deserve to get criticized. But right now its still too early to determine if we're making the right/wrong moves.

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
If Baalke needs to "evaluate the current roster" he should be fired immediately. This dude was our head scout for a couple of years before taking over. Hes been with the team, he should know the talent. Just more BS from the front office.

Baalke knows our talent under Singletary's staff. Players respond differently to different coaches. Players who look good under Singletary's coaching style might not work with Harbaugh's, and players who look bad under Singletary's style might be good in Harbaugh's system. He isn't just evaluating talent itself, I'm sure he knows enough about a player's skillset. I think at this point he's projecting how the players will perform under Harbaugh and his staff.

And the excuses go on and on.

What excuses did I make? My post says 3 things:

1. Players who fit into Singletary's future plans may not fit into Harbaugh's future plans

2. Nobody knows for sure if we are making the right/wrong moves as of now (you might be right about everything but it can't be proven until we actually see it happen)

3. Baalke is evaluating our talent under a new coaching staff. If he isn't doing that, then he shouldn't be a GM. I can't believe you said he doesn't need to be evaluating the current roster. Do you honestly believe GMs should evaluate talent alone and not consider the team's system?

Once again, what excuses did I make?

I'm far too bitter to argue at this point. The bottom line is if Harbaugh can win with this team this year, it's not because we have a good front office, it's because he's that good. Trust me, if by some miracle of God we actually do ok or make the playoffs I will not be giving Baalke credit. Why should he? All he has done is let players go and not replace them. s**t, the Niners can pay me a quarter of his salary and I'll be happy to take over and do the same thing.

Honestly, I think the jury is still out if he's even a good personnel person. I'm not head over heels for any of our drafts the last few years.

I completely disagree. Harbaugh and Baalke have orchestrated this off-season in unison. If Harbaugh went to Baalke and said "I want Franklin back!" he would have done it. Harbaugh is fully on board with what Baalke is doing. It's what they BOTH have planned. If we make the playoffs Harbaugh deserves a ton of credit as does Baalke.

Name two things he gets credit for?

IF we make the playoffs the list is actually pretty long...

Harbaugh, extending VD & Willis, getting Gore back into camp without a media circus, [b]not over paying vets who ended up getting much less attention than originally planned, sticking to his convictions even though fans and media alike are crucifying him before Free agency is even over or a regular season game has been played...

[/b]

This post is full of speculation.

Uh yeah... the quote you originally highlighted "If we make the playoffs Harbaugh deserves a ton of credit as does Baalke" was based on speculation, and you asked what he would then deserve credit for in the event this big "IF" happens. If you highlight a quote based on an "IF" any response given would then be based on speculation.

Ah, no. He is speculating that;

Harbaugh wouldn't of come here if Baalke wasn't the GM.

Baalke was the primary force for getting Frank back into camp. The articles today make it seem as if Harbaugh was the primary reason, not to mention Gore loves the game.

I still dont think you can give Baalke props for letting guys walk when he did nothing to replace them. Also, I dont think over paying would of been an issue based on the contracts signed. To be honest, I really dont care if the Yorks pocket an extra 10 million a year for "not over paying." We have more than enough cap space.

Well in 2013 that will all change, The yorks will actually have to start spending money! THANK GOD THE NFL GAVE US SOME WHAT OF A CHANCE!!!

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
I still dont think you can give Baalke props for letting guys walk when he did nothing to replace them.

I addressed this in my post that you ignored (reply 153) but I'll respond again anyways.

We don't need to sign a free agent to replace a player if our GM/HC feels that we have a replacement already on the roster. We lost a MLB, S, and OLB to free agency this year. Last year we drafted a MLB (3rd round), S (2nd round), and an OLB (1st round) this year. Obviously our front office anticipated the loss of Spikes, Lawson, and Goldson. Baalke drafted players in rounds 1, 2, and 3 to fill those holes and it was done before we even lost those players. Looks like preparation to me. I'm not saying Baalke's plan will work (because it may not), but at least acknowledge the fact he is replacing the players we let go.

Should Baalke get credit for this? No, not yet. Should Baalke get criticized for this? No, not yet. Its unreasonable to praise/criticize Baalke at this point because we haven't seen the results of his decisions yet.

Originally posted by candlestick49er:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
I still dont think you can give Baalke props for letting guys walk when he did nothing to replace them.

I addressed this in my post that you ignored (reply 153) but I'll respond again anyways.

We don't need to sign a free agent to replace a player if our GM/HC feels that we have a replacement already on the roster. We lost a MLB, S, and OLB to free agency this year. Last year we drafted a MLB (3rd round), S (2nd round), and an OLB (1st round) this year. Obviously our front office anticipated the loss of Spikes, Lawson, and Goldson. Baalke drafted players in rounds 1, 2, and 3 to fill those holes and it was done before we even lost those players. Looks like preparation to me. I'm not saying Baalke's plan will work (because it may not), but at least acknowledge the fact he is replacing the players we let go.

Should Baalke get credit for this? No, not yet. Should Baalke get criticized for this? No, not yet. Its unreasonable to praise/criticize Baalke at this point because we haven't seen the results of his decisions yet.

You win. I lose.

/thread

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by candlestick49er:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
I still dont think you can give Baalke props for letting guys walk when he did nothing to replace them.

I addressed this in my post that you ignored (reply 153) but I'll respond again anyways.

We don't need to sign a free agent to replace a player if our GM/HC feels that we have a replacement already on the roster. We lost a MLB, S, and OLB to free agency this year. Last year we drafted a MLB (3rd round), S (2nd round), and an OLB (1st round) this year. Obviously our front office anticipated the loss of Spikes, Lawson, and Goldson. Baalke drafted players in rounds 1, 2, and 3 to fill those holes and it was done before we even lost those players. Looks like preparation to me. I'm not saying Baalke's plan will work (because it may not), but at least acknowledge the fact he is replacing the players we let go.

Should Baalke get credit for this? No, not yet. Should Baalke get criticized for this? No, not yet. Its unreasonable to praise/criticize Baalke at this point because we haven't seen the results of his decisions yet.

You win. I lose.

/thread

Lol. Nobody wins/loses here, just a disagreement of opinions. I just care about the 49ers winning and I'm sure thats something we all agree on.

Go 49ers!