Originally posted by foamingatdamouth: Smith was drafted #1 overall, with an expectation to show the ability to play in the league and lead his team to a quick turn around. He was expected to show the same kind of production fellow #1 QBs Vick, Carson Palmer, Matt Ryan and Matt Stafford had displayed early in their career.
At no point did Nolan and McCloughan state that he's going to take time to develop and eventually get lead the team to the playoffs 6 years down the line. That's not how the NFL works.
The comparison with Vick is valid, it doesn't matter how he accomplished his goal and with what talents, he managed to lead his team to victories.
I'm hearing the same excuses, but I'm not being presented with accomplishments that Alex's Smith career can stands on.
Yes, the expectation was for Smith to turn the franchise around. But I don't think that the expectation was to take a 4 win team to the playoffs in his 2nd year after having the worst rookie QB campaign ever. If that was your expectation, then I repeat myself again. YOU set yourself up for disappointment. I'm sensing a pattern here.
You bring up Palmer, Ryan, Vick and Stafford. If you compare each QBs 2nd year, with the exception of Palmer, Smith produced similar stats. I'm going off a hunch, prove me wrong.
No, it was not the expectation that Smith was to lead the team to the playoffs after 6 years. But it's a little hard to lead your team to the playoffs when you're on IR, isn't it? He's played 43 games. He's entering his 4th year as a STARTER. Let's get that straight before you misuse statistics.
Finally. I don't see any point in debating with you or any point in anybody else debating with you, if the only retort that you can provide when people do bring up reasons why Smith may have a good year next year is that they are 'the same excuses'.
In that case, we might be done. Cheers.
-9fA
[ Edited by 9erfanAUS on May 29, 2010 at 3:44 PM ]
I'm not going to argue about this with you kid. Your point of view is filled with if's and but's and it ignores the actual results of Alex's play. I have no interest in arguing these types of make believe hypotheticals.
Now, if you want to look at facts. Lets talk.
Fact 1 Pee Wee League Caliber Receivers for most of his career.
Fact 2 Inconsistency at the OC position.
Exasperated by...
Fact 3 an Offensive Line that couldn't keep him upright for longer than 2 seconds on the average.
Oh and how about fact 4? That the Opposing Defenses KNOW fact 1-3 and pinned their ears back on every down.
You claim D by your screen name but you don't give Opposing teams credit for knowing our weaknesses.
So apparently you DON'T wish to discuss facts only stats. If you want stats how bout this factoid,
Alex has gotten BETTER every year that he's been the unquestioned starter for a full season AND last year bested his 2nd year stats and only had 10.5 games on the field as the Starter. Oh and how bout this stat he contributed 10 TDs' to Davis's career year.
Do you want more or should I just leave you alone since you only wish to discuss "facts"?
~Ceadder
I'd settle for a single fact instead of the BS your trying to pass off here...
I think D-Drop, Crabs, Morgan, Battle, Conway, and Bryant (just to name a few) are all better than Pee Wee league... Made up Fact # 1... DEBUNKED!
The whole consistency card was played out when Hos was named OC a couple of years ago. Hostler was promoted so that Alex didn't have to learn a new system and would be able to finally have consistency? We all see how well that went. Made up Fact # 2... DEBUNKED!
Here's another link strait from Alex's own mouth...
If Alex couldn't stay up longer than 2 seconds but Shaun Hill could stay up for over 3, why is it all the O-Lines fault? Alex is, in part, to blame as well as the line. Made up Fact # 3... DEBUNKED!
Opposing Ds first priority was to shut down Gore and stop the run, so made up Fact # 4... DEBUNKED!
So now that all your made up BS wanna-be facts have been Debunked, maybe you should use those reading skill you were taught a couple of years ago and read what I posted. "I think Alex has improved and will continue to improve"; but I'm sure you're not going to read this far into my post and will continue to try and make me look like somebody who hates Alex.
As for only wanting to discuss facts, did you read the kids posts, the one that was trying to argue with me? It's full of "If you add" and "he would've gone" type statements; yet, it ignores the actual results of Alex's play. Now if you want to provide and discuss actual facts of Alex's performance, I'm all for it. If you want to continue to make excuses and look for sympathy from me, you might as well not respond to this at all. I don't care to play this what if game; the past has already been written...
Debunked?!!!
Dude you are FoS.
Period.
Fact 1 with NO TE support and ONE Receiver how in the hell can any QB succeed. You debunked nothing except possibly the "pee wee squad ANALOGY"
Fact 2 you didn't debunk this at all. I surmise that having NO OC would have been better than The Hostler. My dead grandma could call a better game. A Rookie OC (even one to keep continuity) don't Debunk SHAT bro.
Fact 3 Hill couldn't stay upright for 2 seconds either. That's why his head was getting kicked in. Go back and look at the film. Also prior to last year Hill was an UNKNOWN, he had zero reps dropping back to Pass. I surmise it's harder to play against someone you haven't strategized for. And oops looks like again you debunk NOTHING.
Oh and that "Made up fact 4?" Apparently you don't watch many 9er games. Too busy chugging Brews(or Lattes possibly?) in the parking lot I imagine. But lemme break it down for you. Two things the exchange takes LESS time than dropping back letting a play develop. Gore constantly makes something out of nothing. But...
He's probably the most successful RB to constantly get submarined behind the LoS. That is a FACT you didn't think about if you even paid attention bro.
Look man face facts you don't want to give Smith a chance to rip your heart out and take a dump on it. I get it. Yaaaaaaaaay D Niner. But you have to let the past go man or it's gonna get you from the inside out.
Again you didn't debunk ANYTHING.
But here's where I can assist you.
Fact 1 doesn't apply anymore because this team has some solid young talent on the verge.
Fact 2 doesn't apply anymore because Raye is an EXPERIENCED Coordinator with a solid track record. You may not like how last season shaped up, but having an Experienced OC for a 2nd year in a row is just short of a modern miracle. Could you imagine if we'dve had to sit through another year of Hostler? I don't believe in suicide, but I think I would have definitely contemplated it by the 4th game.
Fact 3 with more weapons at Alex's disposal Frank may have his best season yet. Because it takes the pressure off him when you have a QB that can throw the ball 40 yards without it dropping like a wounded duck to the turf.
Fact 4 Not made up. If you can stop the Run on 1st and 2nd and longs, and continue to pin your ears back and get after the ball carrier(no matter whom) and you know the Line in front of you is SHAT you're gonna do that. So again you debunked NOTHING.
~Ceadder
Yup Ceadder, you fail again...
Your inability to understand the definition of the word fact defies logic. On top of that, your unwillingness to read the entirety of peoples posts makes you miss a persons true position on the issues being discussed.
As a friend, I'm asking you to please stop this. You're a good poster; but, it's kinda embarrassing to watch you self destruct here...
Hmmm ironically I was thinking the same about you.
Point is the Receivers that Alex had couldn't catch a cold after a freak blizzard in August. Battle was the BEST Receiver he had had over the course of those 3 seasons. That is straight up unadulterated FACT my friend.
~Ceadder:drink:
He had a Pro Bowl caliber player in Antonio Bryant his 2nd season, who missed the last two games. Look at the NO game in 06' VD and Bryant were open downfield against NOs old DBs but Smith kept overthrowing them.
Hmm... I clearly remember Antonio Bryant having a 48-yard touchdown vs. New Orleans. Maybe you don't remember that? I also remember Reggie Bush scoring 4 touchdowns in that game, but I'm sure Alex can play MLB too.
You just have an interesting way of trying to spin a season dude. We're done now.
I remember the saints game where bryant tripped on one route leading to a pick, then didnt make much of an effort to go for ball on deep pass, allowing the cornerback mckenzie to go over his back to pick off what was actually a well thrown deep pass...bryant didnt always make a great effort....he also cost msith another pick in bear game letting a pass go through his hands after a catch (originally called a fumble, then changed post game to a pick)
Originally posted by foamingatdamouth: Smith was drafted #1 overall, with an expectation to show the ability to play in the league and lead his team to a quick turn around. He was expected to show the same kind of production fellow #1 QBs Vick, Carson Palmer, Matt Ryan and Matt Stafford had displayed early in their career.
At no point did Nolan and McCloughan state that he's going to take time to develop and eventually get lead the team to the playoffs 6 years down the line. That's not how the NFL works.
The comparison with Vick is valid, it doesn't matter how he accomplished his goal and with what talents, he managed to lead his team to victories.
I'm hearing the same excuses, but I'm not being presented with accomplishments that Alex's Smith career can stands on.
Yes, the expectation was for Smith to turn the franchise around. But I don't think that the expectation was to take a 4 win team to the playoffs in his 2nd year after having the worst rookie QB campaign ever. If that was your expectation, then I repeat myself again. YOU set yourself up for disappointment. I'm sensing a pattern here.
You bring up Palmer, Ryan, Vick and Stafford. If you compare each QBs 2nd year, with the exception of Palmer, Smith produced similar stats. I'm going off a hunch, prove me wrong.
No, it was not the expectation that Smith was to lead the team to the playoffs after 6 years. But it's a little hard to lead your team to the playoffs when you're on IR, isn't it? He's played 43 games. He's entering his 4th year as a STARTER. Let's get that straight before you misuse statistics.
Finally. I don't see any point in debating with you or any point in anybody else debating with you, if the only retort that you can provide when people do bring up reasons why Smith may have a good year next year is that they are 'the same excuses'.
Originally posted by foamingatdamouth: Smith was drafted #1 overall, with an expectation to show the ability to play in the league and lead his team to a quick turn around. He was expected to show the same kind of production fellow #1 QBs Vick, Carson Palmer, Matt Ryan and Matt Stafford had displayed early in their career.
At no point did Nolan and McCloughan state that he's going to take time to develop and eventually get lead the team to the playoffs 6 years down the line. That's not how the NFL works.
The comparison with Vick is valid, it doesn't matter how he accomplished his goal and with what talents, he managed to lead his team to victories.
I'm hearing the same excuses, but I'm not being presented with accomplishments that Alex's Smith career can stands on.
Yes, the expectation was for Smith to turn the franchise around. But I don't think that the expectation was to take a 4 win team to the playoffs in his 2nd year after having the worst rookie QB campaign ever. If that was your expectation, then I repeat myself again. YOU set yourself up for disappointment. I'm sensing a pattern here.
You bring up Palmer, Ryan, Vick and Stafford. If you compare each QBs 2nd year, with the exception of Palmer, Smith produced similar stats. I'm going off a hunch, prove me wrong.
No, it was not the expectation that Smith was to lead the team to the playoffs after 6 years. But it's a little hard to lead your team to the playoffs when you're on IR, isn't it? He's played 43 games. He's entering his 4th year as a STARTER. Let's get that straight before you misuse statistics.
Finally. I don't see any point in debating with you or any point in anybody else debating with you, if the only retort that you can provide when people do bring up reasons why Smith may have a good year next year is that they are 'the same excuses'.
Originally posted by foamingatdamouth: Smith was drafted #1 overall, with an expectation to show the ability to play in the league and lead his team to a quick turn around. He was expected to show the same kind of production fellow #1 QBs Vick, Carson Palmer, Matt Ryan and Matt Stafford had displayed early in their career.
At no point did Nolan and McCloughan state that he's going to take time to develop and eventually get lead the team to the playoffs 6 years down the line. That's not how the NFL works.
The comparison with Vick is valid, it doesn't matter how he accomplished his goal and with what talents, he managed to lead his team to victories.
I'm hearing the same excuses, but I'm not being presented with accomplishments that Alex's Smith career can stands on.
Yes, the expectation was for Smith to turn the franchise around. But I don't think that the expectation was to take a 4 win team to the playoffs in his 2nd year after having the worst rookie QB campaign ever. If that was your expectation, then I repeat myself again. YOU set yourself up for disappointment. I'm sensing a pattern here.
You bring up Palmer, Ryan, Vick and Stafford. If you compare each QBs 2nd year, with the exception of Palmer, Smith produced similar stats. I'm going off a hunch, prove me wrong.
No, it was not the expectation that Smith was to lead the team to the playoffs after 6 years. But it's a little hard to lead your team to the playoffs when you're on IR, isn't it? He's played 43 games. He's entering his 4th year as a STARTER. Let's get that straight before you misuse statistics.
Finally. I don't see any point in debating with you or any point in anybody else debating with you, if the only retort that you can provide when people do bring up reasons why Smith may have a good year next year is that they are 'the same excuses'.
In that case, we might be done. Cheers.
-9fA
Wow, he agrees that Alex Smith had the worst rookie campaign ever.
He states that the other QBs had equal stats to Smith (wrong, theirs were superior in the td & int department) and admits to not verifying the info.
Smith 2nd yr 58.1% completions 2,890 yards 16 tds 16 ints sacked 74.8 qb rating
Ryan 2nd yr 58.3% completions 2,916 yards 22 tds 14 ints 80.9% rating
Most importantly, while Vick & Ryan led their teams to the 5th & 13th offensive rankings, Smith led the team to 24th ranked offense despite Gores 1,595 yard season. This gives a good indication that 3rd downs were not converted and drives were not sustained. That's the job of the QB.
He also argues that despite being taken #1 overall and given a 6 yr $59 million $24 guaranteed contract, Alex Smith wasn't expected to turn around the team quickly.
If that was the case, then why did Nolan hang the"Win the West" banners in the locker room from the beginning of the 2nd season?
I'm comparing Smith to 4 QBs who had been drafted by teams that were bad enough to be in the position to take the #1 overall player in the draft.
Yet, those QBs lived up to their #1 status by helping lead their respective teams to the playoffs and elevating the talent around them.
Alex Smith has not lived up to the #1 overall status, it doesn't matter if he gave he $ back, he still isn't a franchise QB.
No one has still made a credible argument for Smith, only subjective conjecture that Alex Smith is improving there for he's going to get such and such stats and be a pro bowler.
Your support for Alex Smith isn't based on anything credible. He's a mediocre QB, prove otherwise.
Originally posted by foamingatdamouth: Smith was drafted #1 overall, with an expectation to show the ability to play in the league and lead his team to a quick turn around. He was expected to show the same kind of production fellow #1 QBs Vick, Carson Palmer, Matt Ryan and Matt Stafford had displayed early in their career.
At no point did Nolan and McCloughan state that he's going to take time to develop and eventually get lead the team to the playoffs 6 years down the line. That's not how the NFL works.
The comparison with Vick is valid, it doesn't matter how he accomplished his goal and with what talents, he managed to lead his team to victories.
I'm hearing the same excuses, but I'm not being presented with accomplishments that Alex's Smith career can stands on.
Yes, the expectation was for Smith to turn the franchise around. But I don't think that the expectation was to take a 4 win team to the playoffs in his 2nd year after having the worst rookie QB campaign ever. If that was your expectation, then I repeat myself again. YOU set yourself up for disappointment. I'm sensing a pattern here.
You bring up Palmer, Ryan, Vick and Stafford. If you compare each QBs 2nd year, with the exception of Palmer, Smith produced similar stats. I'm going off a hunch, prove me wrong.
No, it was not the expectation that Smith was to lead the team to the playoffs after 6 years. But it's a little hard to lead your team to the playoffs when you're on IR, isn't it? He's played 43 games. He's entering his 4th year as a STARTER. Let's get that straight before you misuse statistics.
Finally. I don't see any point in debating with you or any point in anybody else debating with you, if the only retort that you can provide when people do bring up reasons why Smith may have a good year next year is that they are 'the same excuses'.
In that case, we might be done. Cheers.
-9fA
Wow, he agrees that Alex Smith had the worst rookie campaign ever.
He states that the other QBs had equal stats to Smith (wrong, theirs were superior in the td & int department) and admits to not verifying the info.
Smith 2nd yr 58.1% completions 2,890 yards 16 tds 16 ints sacked 74.8 qb rating
Ryan 2nd yr 58.3% completions 2,916 yards 22 tds 14 ints 80.9% rating
Most importantly, while Vick & Ryan led their teams to the 5th & 13th offensive rankings, Smith led the team to 24th ranked offense despite Gores 1,595 yard season. This gives a good indication that 3rd downs were not converted and drives were not sustained. That's the job of the QB.
He also argues that despite being taken #1 overall and given a 6 yr $59 million $24 guaranteed contract, Alex Smith wasn't expected to turn around the team quickly.
If that was the case, then why did Nolan hang the"Win the West" banners in the locker room from the beginning of the 2nd season?
I'm comparing Smith to 4 QBs who had been drafted by teams that were bad enough to be in the position to take the #1 overall player in the draft.
Yet, those QBs lived up to their #1 status by helping lead their respective teams to the playoffs and elevating the talent around them.
Alex Smith has not lived up to the #1 overall status, it doesn't matter if he gave he $ back, he still isn't a franchise QB.
No one has still made a credible argument for Smith, only subjective conjecture that Alex Smith is improving there for he's going to get such and such stats and be a pro bowler.
Your support for Alex Smith isn't based on anything credible. He's a mediocre QB, prove otherwise.
Now you're changing your argument... now he's a mediocre QB?
And no, Alex WASN'T expected to turn around the team quickly. He's was in the same situations as Stafford and now Bradford... terrible teams that needed a signal caller. And you're looking for logic from Nolan? Please...
Don't you even consider that the 2005 49ers have almost no players left in 2010 from that squad? Maybe Jennings, Lee, and Nedney, but besides them it's pretty much Alex and only Alex. The team was awful in 2005 and wasn't much better in 2006. You are ignoring the rest of the 52 men on that roster in what everyone knows is a TEAM sport.
But yes, please put ALL of 2006 on Alex. Forget the o-line, defense, and skill positions. Forget all of Mo Hick's fumbles, Kwame's holding penalties, and Vernon's false starts. It's all on Alex.
Originally posted by foamingatdamouth: Smith was drafted #1 overall, with an expectation to show the ability to play in the league and lead his team to a quick turn around. He was expected to show the same kind of production fellow #1 QBs Vick, Carson Palmer, Matt Ryan and Matt Stafford had displayed early in their career.
At no point did Nolan and McCloughan state that he's going to take time to develop and eventually get lead the team to the playoffs 6 years down the line. That's not how the NFL works.
The comparison with Vick is valid, it doesn't matter how he accomplished his goal and with what talents, he managed to lead his team to victories.
I'm hearing the same excuses, but I'm not being presented with accomplishments that Alex's Smith career can stands on.
Yes, the expectation was for Smith to turn the franchise around. But I don't think that the expectation was to take a 4 win team to the playoffs in his 2nd year after having the worst rookie QB campaign ever. If that was your expectation, then I repeat myself again. YOU set yourself up for disappointment. I'm sensing a pattern here.
You bring up Palmer, Ryan, Vick and Stafford. If you compare each QBs 2nd year, with the exception of Palmer, Smith produced similar stats. I'm going off a hunch, prove me wrong.
No, it was not the expectation that Smith was to lead the team to the playoffs after 6 years. But it's a little hard to lead your team to the playoffs when you're on IR, isn't it? He's played 43 games. He's entering his 4th year as a STARTER. Let's get that straight before you misuse statistics.
Finally. I don't see any point in debating with you or any point in anybody else debating with you, if the only retort that you can provide when people do bring up reasons why Smith may have a good year next year is that they are 'the same excuses'.
In that case, we might be done. Cheers.
-9fA
Wow, he agrees that Alex Smith had the worst rookie campaign ever.
He states that the other QBs had equal stats to Smith (wrong, theirs were superior in the td & int department) and admits to not verifying the info.
Smith 2nd yr 58.1% completions 2,890 yards 16 tds 16 ints sacked 74.8 qb rating
Ryan 2nd yr 58.3% completions 2,916 yards 22 tds 14 ints 80.9% rating
Most importantly, while Vick & Ryan led their teams to the 5th & 13th offensive rankings, Smith led the team to 24th ranked offense despite Gores 1,595 yard season. This gives a good indication that 3rd downs were not converted and drives were not sustained. That's the job of the QB.
He also argues that despite being taken #1 overall and given a 6 yr $59 million $24 guaranteed contract, Alex Smith wasn't expected to turn around the team quickly.
If that was the case, then why did Nolan hang the"Win the West" banners in the locker room from the beginning of the 2nd season?
I'm comparing Smith to 4 QBs who had been drafted by teams that were bad enough to be in the position to take the #1 overall player in the draft.
Yet, those QBs lived up to their #1 status by helping lead their respective teams to the playoffs and elevating the talent around them.
Alex Smith has not lived up to the #1 overall status, it doesn't matter if he gave he $ back, he still isn't a franchise QB.
No one has still made a credible argument for Smith, only subjective conjecture that Alex Smith is improving there for he's going to get such and such stats and be a pro bowler.
Your support for Alex Smith isn't based on anything credible. He's a mediocre QB, prove otherwise.
Now you're changing your argument... now he's a mediocre QB?
And no, Alex WASN'T expected to turn around the team quickly. He's was in the same situations as Stafford and now Bradford... terrible teams that needed a signal caller. And you're looking for logic from Nolan? Please...
Don't you even consider that the 2005 49ers have almost no players left in 2010 from that squad? Maybe Jennings, Lee, and Nedney, but besides them it's pretty much Alex and only Alex. The team was awful in 2005 and wasn't much better in 2006. You are ignoring the rest of the 52 men on that roster in what everyone knows is a TEAM sport.
But yes, please put ALL of 2006 on Alex. Forget the o-line, defense, and skill positions. Forget all of Mo Hick's fumbles, Kwame's holding penalties, and Vernon's false starts. It's all on Alex.
Oh the irony, you criticize Nolan's decision making, but vehemently defend his first and most fateful choice, drafting Alex Smith.
Also if you noticed all the players and coaches criticized have been held accountable and dismissed. After this season we'll probably be saying the same about Smith.
Originally posted by foamingatdamouth: No one has still made a credible argument for Smith, only subjective conjecture that Alex Smith is improving there for he's going to get such and such stats and be a pro bowler.
Your support for Alex Smith isn't based on anything credible. He's a mediocre QB, prove otherwise.
This shows the flaws in this entire "debate."
1. FANS don't HAVE to make a "credible argument for Smith" or base their support on "anything credible." They are fans of the TEAM and thus some, by extension, the team's players. Fandom is, by it's very definition, subjective. Thus, the name of this thread - BANDWAGON. It suggests irrationality. You cannot argue with irrationality so, if your goal is this thread is to get people off the bandwagon, you're not going to prevail.
2. You have been provided with facts and statistics - not subjective conjecture - showing that Smith has fairly steadily improved over the course of his 43 game (that's less than 3 seasons) career. You choose to disregard them. That is some evidence that he will continue to improve.
3. There are far too many variables involved, including past and future luck, to predict future success with certainty. Past performance is no guarantee of future success. Every team and every year is different. Many players destined for greatness have become one year wonders and many players who looked mediocre have improved. Things change. Arguing about what has not happened and cannot be predicted is silly.
4. Not everyone can be lumped into the boom or bust groups as you suggest. Smith has been mediocre. I would be shocked if he made the Pro Bowl this year and, frankly, see such talk as fantasy. I'd love to see it, however, as he has worked hard, overcome some bad luck and circumstance, and, most importantly, because it would likely mean that the team had a successful 2010 campaign. More realistically, however, I think that Smith will continue his trend of improvement and have a solid year. The basis for that opinion is, essentially, three-fold: (a) past trends (toward improvement); (b) continuity of system (and the resulting comfort level for a person who, admittedly, needs to know it all before he can function); and (c) the best surrounding TEAM (this is a team sport) that Smith has ever had. Bottom line: Smith is being set up to succeed. I think that he will. If he does not, however, he should not get any more chances - the team will need to make a drastic change.
Originally posted by foamingatdamouth: Smith was drafted #1 overall, with an expectation to show the ability to play in the league and lead his team to a quick turn around. He was expected to show the same kind of production fellow #1 QBs Vick, Carson Palmer, Matt Ryan and Matt Stafford had displayed early in their career.
At no point did Nolan and McCloughan state that he's going to take time to develop and eventually get lead the team to the playoffs 6 years down the line. That's not how the NFL works.
The comparison with Vick is valid, it doesn't matter how he accomplished his goal and with what talents, he managed to lead his team to victories.
I'm hearing the same excuses, but I'm not being presented with accomplishments that Alex's Smith career can stands on.
Yes, the expectation was for Smith to turn the franchise around. But I don't think that the expectation was to take a 4 win team to the playoffs in his 2nd year after having the worst rookie QB campaign ever. If that was your expectation, then I repeat myself again. YOU set yourself up for disappointment. I'm sensing a pattern here.
You bring up Palmer, Ryan, Vick and Stafford. If you compare each QBs 2nd year, with the exception of Palmer, Smith produced similar stats. I'm going off a hunch, prove me wrong.
No, it was not the expectation that Smith was to lead the team to the playoffs after 6 years. But it's a little hard to lead your team to the playoffs when you're on IR, isn't it? He's played 43 games. He's entering his 4th year as a STARTER. Let's get that straight before you misuse statistics.
Finally. I don't see any point in debating with you or any point in anybody else debating with you, if the only retort that you can provide when people do bring up reasons why Smith may have a good year next year is that they are 'the same excuses'.
In that case, we might be done. Cheers.
-9fA
Wow, he agrees that Alex Smith had the worst rookie campaign ever.
He states that the other QBs had equal stats to Smith (wrong, theirs were superior in the td & int department) and admits to not verifying the info.
Smith 2nd yr 58.1% completions 2,890 yards 16 tds 16 ints sacked 74.8 qb rating
Ryan 2nd yr 58.3% completions 2,916 yards 22 tds 14 ints 80.9% rating
Most importantly, while Vick & Ryan led their teams to the 5th & 13th offensive rankings, Smith led the team to 24th ranked offense despite Gores 1,595 yard season. This gives a good indication that 3rd downs were not converted and drives were not sustained. That's the job of the QB.
He also argues that despite being taken #1 overall and given a 6 yr $59 million $24 guaranteed contract, Alex Smith wasn't expected to turn around the team quickly.
If that was the case, then why did Nolan hang the"Win the West" banners in the locker room from the beginning of the 2nd season?
I'm comparing Smith to 4 QBs who had been drafted by teams that were bad enough to be in the position to take the #1 overall player in the draft.
Yet, those QBs lived up to their #1 status by helping lead their respective teams to the playoffs and elevating the talent around them.
Alex Smith has not lived up to the #1 overall status, it doesn't matter if he gave he $ back, he still isn't a franchise QB.
No one has still made a credible argument for Smith, only subjective conjecture that Alex Smith is improving there for he's going to get such and such stats and be a pro bowler.
Your support for Alex Smith isn't based on anything credible. He's a mediocre QB, prove otherwise.
Now you're changing your argument... now he's a mediocre QB?
And no, Alex WASN'T expected to turn around the team quickly. He's was in the same situations as Stafford and now Bradford... terrible teams that needed a signal caller. And you're looking for logic from Nolan? Please...
Don't you even consider that the 2005 49ers have almost no players left in 2010 from that squad? Maybe Jennings, Lee, and Nedney, but besides them it's pretty much Alex and only Alex. The team was awful in 2005 and wasn't much better in 2006. You are ignoring the rest of the 52 men on that roster in what everyone knows is a TEAM sport.
But yes, please put ALL of 2006 on Alex. Forget the o-line, defense, and skill positions. Forget all of Mo Hick's fumbles, Kwame's holding penalties, and Vernon's false starts. It's all on Alex.
Oh the irony, you criticize Nolan's decision making, but vehemently defend his first and most fateful choice, drafting Alex Smith.
Also if you noticed all the players and coaches criticized have been held accountable and dismissed. After this season we'll probably be saying the same about Smith.
Whats even more ironic is your use of stats to support your agenda after shamelessly accusing Smiths '09 stats as being misleading and skewed...
I think I get what foaming is trying to say, and I'll try to put it in a different way. I don't think I've seen any of the pro Alex Smith people say they think he has performed at the level he should be as of yet, but that he has the talent and has shown improvement and will get there once a certain list of other things are in place.
There are all kinds of reasons or excuses (depending on which side of the argument you are on) as to why Alex Smith has not lived up to expectations to date. We all know those and have seen them many times over and over again so I won't repeat them. We also know that others think those are merely excuses and that if Alex was the QB he should be, he would overcome those things. Again, I won't repeat all of those arguments either.
But what I think is at the core of foaming's argument is that the supporters mostly seem to speak of these potential reasons as if it is commonly known fact that Alex is a very good QB and that it is obvious that without those obsticals, if he were on a good team with continuity, then he would most definitely be considered a very good/great QB. That he would have already reached the level that we all want him to be. That he would have led that team to the playoffs multiple times, and maybe even to a Super Bowl win or two.
That is all well and good except for one very important thing, there is absoultely no way to definitively correlate those things into how Alex Smith would have performed if situations had been different. He may be a great QB right now if he had decent blocking. He may be a great QB right now if he had a good OC for more than one season. He may be a great QB if he had talented receivers that didn't drop so many balls. Those are a lot of "if"s.
And you know what, personally, I don't have any problems with individuals looking at those "if"s and coming to the conclusion that we should keep Alex Smith and see what he can do now that he's got some of those things in place. No problem at all. However, it is also perfectly understandable that some out there have the opposite view, that regardless of the problems facing him, Alex Smith has just not gotten there and maybe they wish the Niners would finally move on.
You are not talking about anything that Smith has actually done. Your main arguments are what the other players or coaches around him have or have not done. "Alex would have performed better if he had real talent around him." Maybe those opinions are based on some decent and valid statistics about how many dropped passes receivers had or how little time Alex had to get rid of the ball. But those statistics belong to other people and cannot be directly correlated in the argument with any degree of certainty to make it fact.
That's like asking a bunch of pot smokers if they've ever drank milk. And when they all say yes, concluding that drinking milk leads to smoking pot.
Originally posted by foamingatdamouth: Smith was drafted #1 overall, with an expectation to show the ability to play in the league and lead his team to a quick turn around. He was expected to show the same kind of production fellow #1 QBs Vick, Carson Palmer, Matt Ryan and Matt Stafford had displayed early in their career.
At no point did Nolan and McCloughan state that he's going to take time to develop and eventually get lead the team to the playoffs 6 years down the line. That's not how the NFL works.
The comparison with Vick is valid, it doesn't matter how he accomplished his goal and with what talents, he managed to lead his team to victories.
I'm hearing the same excuses, but I'm not being presented with accomplishments that Alex's Smith career can stands on.
Yes, the expectation was for Smith to turn the franchise around. But I don't think that the expectation was to take a 4 win team to the playoffs in his 2nd year after having the worst rookie QB campaign ever. If that was your expectation, then I repeat myself again. YOU set yourself up for disappointment. I'm sensing a pattern here.
You bring up Palmer, Ryan, Vick and Stafford. If you compare each QBs 2nd year, with the exception of Palmer, Smith produced similar stats. I'm going off a hunch, prove me wrong.
No, it was not the expectation that Smith was to lead the team to the playoffs after 6 years. But it's a little hard to lead your team to the playoffs when you're on IR, isn't it? He's played 43 games. He's entering his 4th year as a STARTER. Let's get that straight before you misuse statistics.
Finally. I don't see any point in debating with you or any point in anybody else debating with you, if the only retort that you can provide when people do bring up reasons why Smith may have a good year next year is that they are 'the same excuses'.
In that case, we might be done. Cheers.
-9fA
Wow, he agrees that Alex Smith had the worst rookie campaign ever.
He states that the other QBs had equal stats to Smith (wrong, theirs were superior in the td & int department) and admits to not verifying the info.
Smith 2nd yr 58.1% completions 2,890 yards 16 tds 16 ints sacked 74.8 qb rating
Ryan 2nd yr 58.3% completions 2,916 yards 22 tds 14 ints 80.9% rating
Most importantly, while Vick & Ryan led their teams to the 5th & 13th offensive rankings, Smith led the team to 24th ranked offense despite Gores 1,595 yard season. This gives a good indication that 3rd downs were not converted and drives were not sustained. That's the job of the QB.
He also argues that despite being taken #1 overall and given a 6 yr $59 million $24 guaranteed contract, Alex Smith wasn't expected to turn around the team quickly.
If that was the case, then why did Nolan hang the"Win the West" banners in the locker room from the beginning of the 2nd season?
I'm comparing Smith to 4 QBs who had been drafted by teams that were bad enough to be in the position to take the #1 overall player in the draft.
Yet, those QBs lived up to their #1 status by helping lead their respective teams to the playoffs and elevating the talent around them.
Alex Smith has not lived up to the #1 overall status, it doesn't matter if he gave he $ back, he still isn't a franchise QB.
No one has still made a credible argument for Smith, only subjective conjecture that Alex Smith is improving there for he's going to get such and such stats and be a pro bowler.
Your support for Alex Smith isn't based on anything credible. He's a mediocre QB, prove otherwise.
Mediocre?
Did you actually SEE what he did when he had a credible team surrounding him while standing behind that SHAT Line las season?
If that's F$CK!N mediocre, gimme more. You think Shaun Hill could have done that? Now see THERE is a Mediocre QB in the history of mediocre QBs'.
Alex was tied for the 2nd most accurate Passer with Brett Favre last season.
You people are arguing semantics when you know damn good and well that the Offensive weapons on this team were tier 2 at best.
Besides Frank who was this guy supposed to use that was TRULY worth a damn? I mean guys that showed they were worth keeping around for longer than a season?
Eric Johnson? Please don't insult your intelligence you have to be smart enough to realize that EJ was an off an on player cause he was injury prone and would have a decent season getting our hopes up and get CRUSHED out for the next then would get our hopes up the following season then get CRUSHED...
You want to know the one guy that proved he was worth wearing the Red and Gold? Arnaz FREAKIN Battle.
That was the one Receiver over that span of time that Alex COULD count on. And we all know Battle was tier 2.
Behind Frank, WHO?!!!
You guys act like he was sposed to be Joe Montana and make CRAP look like Caviar.
The difference here being...
Montana = 13 year Vet with 4 Championships under his belt, and a solid Offensive foundation to work with since '81 and a Line that for the most part could protect him against the CRAP teams in the League and could hold at the PoA for longer than 3 seconds. And HoF talent surrounding him.
Alex = young, wet behind the ears 3 year player with NONE of that around him. If you took a microphone out there on the field and stood right behind the kid you'dve heard...
The OC position was always in a state of Flux. F@CK Hostler. Your OC is SUPPOSED to have some idea of what plays to Run. At least better than any 5 year old with a controller and a Copy of Madden. Hostler was LOST as an OC. How many of the plays he ran fooled you before they even took the snap on them? ZERO, not one of his calls. It wasn't until Tollner was brought back did he even have ANY true success calling plays. Even then it didn't matter cause Tollner wasn't really any better.
I can't believe the amount of BULLSHAT being spewed about Smith from guys that are USED to success at every position on this team and that CLAIM that Smith is "mediocre at best".
Really? Mediocre at best? What gives you a clear indication of that and how did you come by that knowledge from years of watching Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Terrell Owens(I still hate that asspunk) Roger Craig, Tom Rathman and Brent Jones on the field? When we had Druckenmiller, now THAT was a clear indicator that guy sucked ass. 1 win in his entire career as a 9er. But he was given his walking papers cause his personal life was a mess. Not because of his performance on the field. And people have the stones to compare Smith to Druck? What??!!!
You guys sound like this retard...
The guy acts like he's a life long 9er fan. Go to his homepage and he Reppin Seagull Shat on it. Far as I'm concerned you don't get to talk shat about anyone on my team so long as you root for another team with a really bad history. Sheattle has had no more than a handful of good seasons and no Championships. One GOOD QB in that Span and one that could play on most any team. Warren Moon was a Journeyman and his time was done by time he hooked up with them.
If you feel like this guy then move along nothing to see here cause you know SHAT about Football. It's a team sport and as much as your supporting case rely on you, you rely more so on THEM. When plays started breaking down? Only ONE guy consistently went WCO and that was Battle. Everyone else gave up on plays, half assed them and laid it all out on the field at every snap. One! Arnaz freakin Battle. El cocaracha himself.
You want to know why Battle stuck with this team for so long? Cause he was consistent and COULD be counted on. Even in his injury shorted seasons.
As I said if you feel like NFL Retard get the hell out and don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.
Smith mediocre.
~Ceadder
Alex says "F@CK YOUR FATALITY" and "F@CK THAT CHUMP FIGHTER TYSON" he gonna PWN you haters this season.
[ Edited by Ceadderman on May 31, 2010 at 8:51 AM ]
) in the parking lot I imagine. But lemme break it down for you. Two things the exchange takes LESS time than dropping back letting a play develop. Gore constantly makes something out of nothing. But...
But you have to let the past go man or it's gonna get you from the inside out.
