When will Michael Crabtree be signed?

Originally posted by AB83Rules:
who else is getting sick and tired of Crabtree and Parker and there anticts, he is what 22, and hasnt proven a damn thing, and should take 10th pick money, idk about anyone else, but im sick of punk kids coming out of college and demandind more than most top vets get.

whatd he do this time?

Originally posted by AB83Rules:
who else is getting sick and tired of Crabtree and Parker and there anticts, he is what 22, and hasnt proven a damn thing, and should take 10th pick money, idk about anyone else, but im sick of punk kids coming out of college and demandind more than most top vets get.

If the wr's play great on friday then the 9ers will have more leverage and expect Crabs to sign sooner than later. it still sucks though

Originally posted by DownSouth:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
You are only looking at guaranteed money, which is certainly one way to slice it. However, slotting is not simply based on this idea. It is also based on average salary per year.

. . .

Further, I have always stated that the notion that Crabtree should simply bow to the sanctity of the slotting, which does not exist, would be foolish. There are circumstances where players, for some reason, either gain an imbalance in either their total contract numbers, annual salary, or guaranteed money.

I disagree with you. The contract slotting does exist. It's clear that the guaranteed money overwhelming follows the slotted system. It's equally clear that the "average yearly salary" does not.

The difference is that the guaranteed money (and generally the first 3 or 3 years of the deal) are real numbers and the AYS is a largely meaningless number (as in, made up or "imaginary").

As you know, the AYS is reached by dividing the total value of the contract by the contract length (# years). However, the total contract value is an almost meaningless number b/c few (if any) rookies will ever actually receive most of (let alone all of) the total contract value. Few, if any, ever hit all the incentives, receive all the bonuses, and make all the "total contract value" they signed on for. That's why it's a meaningless number.

For example, look at Clements' deal. His AYS is huge, but in reality he'll never get that much money. His actual AYS is still big, but its not nearly as big as the AYS # would indicate. That's why his AYS is a "made up number", just like those of the rookies'.

Based on that, I guess, i'd be happy to give Crab a 6 year deal with the last year having a nonguaranteed roster bonus of 25mill. WOW. Then he'd have a top 3 AYS, but his actual guaranteed money and the first 4 or 5 years of his deal (the "real" numbers he's likely to receive) fit within the #10 slot. THEN there will be idiots crowing about how his deal blew out the slotting system b/c of how big his AYS was, when in reality, it did nothing of the kind. It would still set a bad precedent b/c every year the "fake year numbers" would get bigger and bigger, thereby shortening the legitimate contract length.

The guaranteed figures (including the "log" bonus) and the first few years' salary are really the only numbers that matter. The AYS is largely a meaningless number.

You provide some good points, and have obviously done some homework. Well-done. Here is my response below:

I have never argued that slotting does not exist. Here is what I stated earlier in this thread:
I have argued for some time now that Crabtree's contract is going to be unusual at the end. Either it is going to have more guaranteed money than some of the players drafted above him, or his annual salary will surpass players drafted above him.

Further, I have always stated that the notion that Crabtree should simply bow to the sanctity of the slotting, which does not exist, would be foolish. There are circumstances where players, for some reason, either gain an imbalance in either their total contract numbers, annual salary, or guaranteed money

My argument has never been that the majority of players do not fall into a certain line in guaranteed money. It is the concept that the slotting we see is some form of sacred institution, that it is never broken. We see multiple situations and circumstances every year in the first round that show that this is not a concrete structure. There are clearly exceptions.

As for the annual salary, while it is true that many players have hard-to-reach incentives, many also have fairly easy-to-reach incentives. Larry Fitzgerald had a challenging road to reach his incentives, but at the end of the day, his contract proved to be larger than both Robert Gallery and Eli Manning.
His contract was larger.

Barry Sanders hit his incentives, and had a superior contract to the pick above him, Tony Manderich. The Browns are on the hook for $10 million for Brady Quinn. Darrelle Revis is making far more money on his contract than the guys above him. Matt Ryan made more in guarantees and will probably hit all incentives to make more per year than anyone else in the 2008 draft. In the end, Dustin Keller will make more money in the five year contract than four or five guys drafted above him. The list is long of guys who had average salaries that bettered players above them.

As I have stated before in this thread, I believe Crabtree will have a contract that is better than someone above him, whether in guaranteed money, or in reachable incentives/escalator clauses built into his contract.

The argument I keep hearing from others, is that Crabtree should just accept the normal contract tucked between the 9th and 11th overall. These people need to leave the fantasy world. It is NOT going to happen, and I have clearly stated the reasons/circumstances why his agent (unless Crabtree pulls the plug on Parker's desire for an unusual contract) has a strong case.

P.S. There is one flaw with your AYS case study. In the case of most first round rookies, they are going to play out their original contract (five or six years). If incentives are met, the annual salary can be a basis of comparing the final terms of the contract.

In the case of Clements, he is not going to complete the length of his contract. The Niners inflate the back end of his contract, knowing that he will not be a part of the team in the final year(s). This allows the team to cut him at any point, and not pay the remainder of the salary.

[ Edited by MadDog49er on Aug 10, 2009 at 19:07:04 ]

Originally posted by 5TIME49:

Originally posted by buck:
Here I have signing for this ranked by average yearly salary. There are two players that do not fit into a "slotted" structure. Both are quarterbacks.

Mark Sanchez drafted 5th has the third highest average salary.

Jason Freeman drafted 17th is 12th in average salary.

1 Matthew Stafford 6 years $72,000,000 overall $12,000,000 average
2 Jason Smith 5 years $61,775,000 overall $12,355,000 average
5 Mark Sanchez 5 year $60,000,000 overall $12,000,000 average
3 Tyson Jackson 5 $57,000,000 $11,400,000
4 Aaron Curry 6 years $60,000,000 overall $10,000,000 average
6 Andre Smith
7 Darrius Heyward-Bey 5 $38,250,000 $7,650,000
8 Eugene Monroe
9 B.J. Raji
10 Michael Crabtree
11 Aaron Maybin
17 Josh Freeman 5 years $36,000,000 overall $7,200,000 average
12 Knowshon Moreno 5 years $23,000,000 overall $4,600,000 average
13 Brian Orakpo 5 years $20,000,000 overall $4,000,000 average
14 Malcolm Jenkins 5 years $19,000,000 overall $3,800,000 average
15 Brian Cushing 5 years $18,000,000 overall $3,600,000 average
16 Larry English 5 years $17,800,000 overall $3,560,000 average
18 Robert Ayers 5 years numbers unkown
19 Jeremy Maclin 5 years $15,500,000 overall $3,100,000 average
21 Alex Mack 5 years $15,000,000 overall $3,000,000 average
20 Brandon Pettigrew 5 yars $14,600,000 overall $2,920,000 average
22 Percy Harvin 5 years $14,250,000 overall $2,850,000 average
25 Vontae Davis 5 years $13,300,000 overall $2,660,000 average
24 Peria Jerry 5 years $13,250,000 overall $2,650,000 average
26 Clay Matthews 5 years $13,200,000 overall $2,640,000 average
23 Michael Oher 5 years $13,000,000 overall $2,600,000 average
28 Eric Wood 5 years $13,000,000 overall $2,600,000 average
27 Donald Brown 5 years $12,835,000 overall $2,567,000
29 Hakeem Nicks 5 years $12,540,000 overall $2,508,000
30 Kenny Britt 5 years $12,250,000 overall $2,450,000
31 Chris Wells 5 years $11,800,000 overall $2,360,000
32 EvanderHood 5 years $11,300,000 overall $2,260,000

I hope this chart is readable.

I have another chart with the players ranked by average guaranteed salary. I will post that later.

Now this is so much more accurate than that crap maddog comes up with. I dont understand how he cant understand this.
Thank you, well done.

Crap? Impressive. Maybe you can't read well enough to understand my argument. Have you thought about that one? Read above, genius!

[ Edited by MadDog49er on Aug 10, 2009 at 19:02:17 ]

I have provided some stats, but now I would like to venture an opinion on the debate on the "sanctity" of slotting.

First, as there is no rookie salary structure, no such sanctity exists. Furthermore, even if there was a de facto system there are times when the right thing to do is to violate that implicit, and by implicit I do mean to imply illicit, structure.

I feel that football skills of Crabtree warrants a moderate violation of the presumed slotting structure. I have no real proof to offer in defense of my feeling, except the joy and elation felt by most when he feel to us.

I seriously anticipate that Crabtree's contract will be comprise that vindicates the assumption that, and this is an assumption not only held Crabtree himself, he is a better WR than Hayward-Bey.

My underlying vision of this debate revolves around a clear grasp of the difference between the reality of the world that I live in and the reality of the world of the NFL. Put it this way, I work like a dog, I am good, and quite conceivably excellent, at what I do, and I have never earned more than $60,000 (including benefits) a year.

In many ways, I just can not understand the difference between making 3 million and making 6 million a year. I would love to have the chance to experience that difference.

Given my absolute incapacity to grasp the money earned by NFL players, I only hope the best for the team. It does not bother me if Crabtree makes out like a bandit, if he proves to be a critical factor in taking us to that promised land of super bowl victories.

As to this debate on our forum. I have done my research. I have formed my opinion. I have not found it necessary, useful, or even remotely justified to insult those who do not, or who might not, share my vision.

If we want rational reasoned discussion, it our responsibly to impose that not only on other, but also, and much more importantly, on ourselves.

Specifically, in this debate Maddog is more correct than not, but dam I just can not stand his way of arguing his point.

[ Edited by buck on Aug 10, 2009 at 19:15:47 ]

Originally posted by buck:
I have provided some stats, but now I would like to venture an opinion on the debate on the "sanctity" of slotting.

First, as there is no rookie salary structure, no such sanctity exists. Furthermore, even if there was a de facto system there are times when the right thing to do is to violate that implicit, and by implicit I do mean to imply illicit, structure.

I feel that football skills of Crabtree warrants a moderate violation of the presumed slotting structure. I have no real proof to offer in defense of my feeling, except the joy and elation felt by most when he feel to us.

I seriously anticipate that Crabtree's contract will be comprise that vindicates an assumption, an assumption held not only by Crabtree himself, is a better WR than Hayward-Bey.

My underlying vision of this debate revolves around a clear grasp of the difference between the reality of the world that I live in and the reality of the world of the NFL. Put it this way, I work like a dog, I am good, and quite conceivably excellent, at what I do, and I have never earned more than $60,000 (including benefits) a year.

In many ways, I just can not understand the difference between making 3 million and making 6 million a year. I would to have the chance to experence that difference.

Given my absolute incapacity to grasp these earning, I only hope the best for the team. It does not bother me if Crabtree makes out like a bandit, if he proves to be a critical factor in taking us to that promised land of super bowl victories.

As to this debate on our forum. I have done my research. I have formed my opinion. I have not found it necessary, useful, or even remotely justified to insult those who do not, or who might not, share my vision.

If we want rational reasoned discussion, it our responsibly to impose that not only on other, but also, and much more importantly, on ourselves.

Specifically, in this debate Maddog is more correct than not, but dam I just can not stand his way of arguing his point.

Thanks for your thoughts. For the record, I am not a Crabtree fan. I don't have a jersey, nor intend to buy one.

I joined this debate to debunk the idea that Crabtree should automatically fall in line with the normal economic system, agree with management, and sign on the dotted line. I believe that based upon his circumstances, his agent, Eugene Parker, who many think to be, and have since called an idiot, have a strong case for an unusual contract. Furthermore, as more individuals in the media began to dogpile on Team Crabtree with rumors of contract "demands" (is it Top 3, Top 5, more than DHB??? Everyone has their own subjective feeling), nobody in the media seemed to acknowledge that there are contracts in the NFL every year that are unusual. These same individuals have castigated Crabtree without even attempting to present the opposing viewpoint. Is that Fair and Balanced?

To show the folly of these individuals in their devotion to the sanctity of the slot, I listed the long line of players who received higher compensation either in guarantees or average salary per year.

I am rarely pleasant when confronted with such overt bias, and I do have a tendency to belittle the press, especially when individuals who read such journalists parrot their response, without ever thinking.

Any rational person would have taken some time, before getting lathered up to write another hit piece on Crabtree and Parker, to do a bit of research. Parker is not delusional as some have suggested, and Crabtree is not necessarily greedy, just because his contract is not signed. As stated before, some of the nicest guys in the league have Parker as their agent, and some of the nicest players in the NFL don't appear in camp until their contract is finalized, and they receive what they believe as just compensation.

[ Edited by MadDog49er on Aug 10, 2009 at 19:23:12 ]

Whoever did this did a great photoshop job!



[ Edited by Dajanksta on Aug 10, 2009 at 19:42:41 ]

Originally posted by Dajanksta:

Originally posted by King49er:

Originally posted by Dajanksta:

2nd

Originally posted by King49er:

Originally posted by Dajanksta:

lol for what?

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by King49er:

Originally posted by Dajanksta:

2nd

wtf?

Originally posted by cestmoi:

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by King49er:

Originally posted by Dajanksta:

2nd

wtf?

they must not be crabtree fans! which is weird since he is a NINER

Originally posted by Dajanksta:

Originally posted by cestmoi:

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by King49er:

Originally posted by Dajanksta:

2nd

wtf?

they must not be crabtree fans! which is weird since he is a NINER

Thats a sick picture! Come on Crabtree sign already!!!!!!!! btw where did you find that original picture? Never seen that picture of Crabtree anywhere but it's awsome.

Originally posted by Dajanksta:


Whoever did this did a great photoshop job!

That is bad ass... here's my cover :)

Originally posted by Dajanksta:

Originally posted by cestmoi:

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by King49er:

Originally posted by Dajanksta:

2nd

wtf?

they must not be crabtree fans! which is weird since he is a NINER

no actually hes not