Who is the Most Underrated 49er?

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by BrodieFan:
TAKEO SPIKES:"You see runs up the middle and the running back will cut it back; Aubrayo will make the play but not make the tackle," Spikes said. "The running back will have to cut it back because of his presence. He's one of the best nose guards I've seen who manhandles the center."

OLDMAN9ER: "He's an awful NT."

I'll go with Spikes. That doesn't seem like "gloss" to me. It seems pretty specific.

That is your right, of course. I'm gonna go ahead and trust my own eyes. I'm not demanding that anyone believe me. I DVR'd and watched these games repeatedly, specifically the NT spot. I wouldn't hold such a strong stance on this if there were any doubt in my mind. Now can he get better? I can't say absolutely no... but I do think he has hit his ceiling, and that ceiling is still not good enough. The fact that he gets these types of props are really indicative of how few really analyze his game. All they remember is the few decent plays a game he makes... while somehow forgetting the rest where he gets shoved off the LOS or stood up and useless in pushing the pocket.

Can we go back a few years and take wilfork like i wanted to, rather then passing on him twice by trading back. he was there even on the second trade. we were sitting right in front of the pats and i was screeming give me my nose, then we trade back again and the pats take him and we take woods. GOD! Of coarse then ngata comes along at 345 POUNDS! and im screeming again. Then Bj this season im like lord let it happen. Then one pick away one fing pick. Then are's which im pumped cause we got crab and he's clearly the best wr hands down with or without a 40 time kids a gamer. BUT I WANT A NOSE. Every year a sick guy to play nose comes out we take someone else. or as in bj just didn't get any luck but come on nolan screwed us twice on getting a nose...

Originally posted by WheresWaldo:

Originally posted by waiting4number6:
I'd go Patrick Willis.

Yeah he's wayyy underrated.

Ya I know. I mean perfect example having freaking Beason over him for 1st team All-pro and Beason starting in the Pro Bowl last year, I heard some foo even say EJ Henderson was better than Willis, it's amazing Willis is the MLB in the game maybe even the best LB or best defensive player in the game yet he's underrated it's ridiculous.

I would be curious to get the opinion of someone who has legitimate experience watching DT on tape. Some positions are easy to observe (QB, WR, RB, LB, etc.), however its very difficult to objectively judge a DT, especially a 3-4 NT. And normally what I go off of, is either sacks by the OLBs --which is a good reflection of the DL as a hole, but could be misleading due to the quality of the OLBs themselves--and the media coverage. Based on these two metrics, Franklin is nothing special. The niners are pathetic at rushing the passer, but our D-line does not exactly get much recognition from the media. Borrows's most recent article, for example, talks about how the team would like to replace Franklin as a starter. So, I would like to know. Is he very underrated and the kind of NT that can be the anchor of a dominant defense, or are his defensive teammates simply saying that to drive home the point that he's not as bad as everyone thinks he is? If he's truly as good as some of the lines in that article indicate, we are one pass rusher, and a starting quality CB away from having a very dominant defense

Originally posted by waiting4number6:

Originally posted by WheresWaldo:

Originally posted by waiting4number6:
I'd go Patrick Willis.

Yeah he's wayyy underrated.

Ya I know. I mean perfect example having freaking Beason over him for 1st team All-pro and Beason starting in the Pro Bowl last year, I heard some foo even say EJ Henderson was better than Willis, it's amazing Willis is the MLB in the game maybe even the best LB or best defensive player in the game yet he's underrated it's ridiculous.

Yea i don't get that one either.

Ok let's compare.

Jon Plays in a 4-3 So he can pad his stats.
Willis, or Black Jesus. Plays in a 3-4.

Jon's first season 2007. 140 tackles, six Pass knocked down. one int that went 0 yards. 0 FUMBLES FORCE OR RECOVERED! 0 sacks

Black Jesus (willis), first season also 2007. nfl counts 174 but the niners say 226, WTF? That's a major discrepancy. four sacks, two forced fumbles, one fumble recovery and six passes defensed. nfl.com doesn't show the fumbles and the have one less pass knocked down they have him at four.

Jon's Second Season 2008. 138 tackles, eight pass knocked down. three int's 17.3 no td's. 0 forced fumbles and recovered. 0 sacks

Willis Second Season 2008. 141 tackles, one sack, Ten passes knocked down. one int 86 yards and a Td. nfl says no recovered or forced fumbles but i remember the fumble he force in against the bill and i remember seeing him pick up one, and the 49ers.com says he also picked one up against the saints.

Everything that's bolded the player was better at. Really though the niners and the nfl need to get on the phone and go back to his rookie season and count together.

[ Edited by TheGoldDiggerrrr on Jun 27, 2009 at 23:36:03 ]

Originally posted by TheGoldDiggerrrr:

Originally posted by waiting4number6:

Originally posted by WheresWaldo:

Originally posted by waiting4number6:
I'd go Patrick Willis.

Yeah he's wayyy underrated.

Ya I know. I mean perfect example having freaking Beason over him for 1st team All-pro and Beason starting in the Pro Bowl last year, I heard some foo even say EJ Henderson was better than Willis, it's amazing Willis is the MLB in the game maybe even the best LB or best defensive player in the game yet he's underrated it's ridiculous.

Really though the niners and the nfl need to get on the phone and go back to his rookie season and count together.

Ha Ha yeah, it's kinda like the Deacon Jones factor, he had more sacks than any other player in the history of the game, granted it's even worse for Deacon cuz they didn't count sacks back then, but still both cases are severely messed up.

Nolan got one right WOOT!

Originally posted by TheGoldDiggerrrr:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by BrodieFan:
TAKEO SPIKES:"You see runs up the middle and the running back will cut it back; Aubrayo will make the play but not make the tackle," Spikes said. "The running back will have to cut it back because of his presence. He's one of the best nose guards I've seen who manhandles the center."

OLDMAN9ER: "He's an awful NT."

I'll go with Spikes. That doesn't seem like "gloss" to me. It seems pretty specific.

That is your right, of course. I'm gonna go ahead and trust my own eyes. I'm not demanding that anyone believe me. I DVR'd and watched these games repeatedly, specifically the NT spot. I wouldn't hold such a strong stance on this if there were any doubt in my mind. Now can he get better? I can't say absolutely no... but I do think he has hit his ceiling, and that ceiling is still not good enough. The fact that he gets these types of props are really indicative of how few really analyze his game. All they remember is the few decent plays a game he makes... while somehow forgetting the rest where he gets shoved off the LOS or stood up and useless in pushing the pocket.

Can we go back a few years and take wilfork like i wanted to, rather then passing on him twice by trading back. he was there even on the second trade. we were sitting right in front of the pats and i was screeming give me my nose, then we trade back again and the pats take him and we take woods. GOD! Of coarse then ngata comes along at 345 POUNDS! and im screeming again. Then Bj this season im like lord let it happen. Then one pick away one fing pick. Then are's which im pumped cause we got crab and he's clearly the best wr hands down with or without a 40 time kids a gamer. BUT I WANT A NOSE. Every year a sick guy to play nose comes out we take someone else. or as in bj just didn't get any luck but come on nolan screwed us twice on getting a nose...

Here's your NOSE



A chada da CHA

[ Edited by wysiwyg on Jun 28, 2009 at 01:11:35 ]

Originally posted by wysiwyg:

Originally posted by TheGoldDiggerrrr:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by BrodieFan:
TAKEO SPIKES:"You see runs up the middle and the running back will cut it back; Aubrayo will make the play but not make the tackle," Spikes said. "The running back will have to cut it back because of his presence. He's one of the best nose guards I've seen who manhandles the center."

OLDMAN9ER: "He's an awful NT."

I'll go with Spikes. That doesn't seem like "gloss" to me. It seems pretty specific.

That is your right, of course. I'm gonna go ahead and trust my own eyes. I'm not demanding that anyone believe me. I DVR'd and watched these games repeatedly, specifically the NT spot. I wouldn't hold such a strong stance on this if there were any doubt in my mind. Now can he get better? I can't say absolutely no... but I do think he has hit his ceiling, and that ceiling is still not good enough. The fact that he gets these types of props are really indicative of how few really analyze his game. All they remember is the few decent plays a game he makes... while somehow forgetting the rest where he gets shoved off the LOS or stood up and useless in pushing the pocket.

Can we go back a few years and take wilfork like i wanted to, rather then passing on him twice by trading back. he was there even on the second trade. we were sitting right in front of the pats and i was screeming give me my nose, then we trade back again and the pats take him and we take woods. GOD! Of coarse then ngata comes along at 345 POUNDS! and im screeming again. Then Bj this season im like lord let it happen. Then one pick away one fing pick. Then are's which im pumped cause we got crab and he's clearly the best wr hands down with or without a 40 time kids a gamer. BUT I WANT A NOSE. Every year a sick guy to play nose comes out we take someone else. or as in bj just didn't get any luck but come on nolan screwed us twice on getting a nose...

Here's your NOSE



A chada da CHA

My buddy is a dallas fan die hard. Every year he laughs at me until this year, because he laughed at who the packers took and said there goes your dt. He didn't laugh about crabtree. He said atleast the eagles didn't get him, then he laughed cause all and his speed, and said all davis must be trying to win the Special Olympics. He stormed out of my house we they passed on stephen jackson, Chris perry and Kevin jones and took
Julis jones.

i laugh we they traded away this years pick.

I've been screaming about a tackle since Robertson went to the rams, he turned out to be a bus,t but since before bryant young retired if you know him when we lost stubafield this has all i wanted.

[ Edited by TheGoldDiggerrrr on Jun 28, 2009 at 01:28:18 ]

Originally posted by TheGoldDiggerrrr:

Originally posted by wysiwyg:

Originally posted by TheGoldDiggerrrr:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by BrodieFan:
TAKEO SPIKES:"You see runs up the middle and the running back will cut it back; Aubrayo will make the play but not make the tackle," Spikes said. "The running back will have to cut it back because of his presence. He's one of the best nose guards I've seen who manhandles the center."

OLDMAN9ER: "He's an awful NT."

I'll go with Spikes. That doesn't seem like "gloss" to me. It seems pretty specific.

That is your right, of course. I'm gonna go ahead and trust my own eyes. I'm not demanding that anyone believe me. I DVR'd and watched these games repeatedly, specifically the NT spot. I wouldn't hold such a strong stance on this if there were any doubt in my mind. Now can he get better? I can't say absolutely no... but I do think he has hit his ceiling, and that ceiling is still not good enough. The fact that he gets these types of props are really indicative of how few really analyze his game. All they remember is the few decent plays a game he makes... while somehow forgetting the rest where he gets shoved off the LOS or stood up and useless in pushing the pocket.

Can we go back a few years and take wilfork like i wanted to, rather then passing on him twice by trading back. he was there even on the second trade. we were sitting right in front of the pats and i was screeming give me my nose, then we trade back again and the pats take him and we take woods. GOD! Of coarse then ngata comes along at 345 POUNDS! and im screeming again. Then Bj this season im like lord let it happen. Then one pick away one fing pick. Then are's which im pumped cause we got crab and he's clearly the best wr hands down with or without a 40 time kids a gamer. BUT I WANT A NOSE. Every year a sick guy to play nose comes out we take someone else. or as in bj just didn't get any luck but come on nolan screwed us twice on getting a nose...

Here's your NOSE



A chada da CHA

My buddy is a dallas fan die hard. Every year he laughs at me until this year, because he laughed at who the packers took and said there goes your dt. He didn't laugh about crabtree. He said atleast the eagles didn't get him, then he laughed cause all and his speed, and said all davis must be trying to win the Special Olympics. He stormed out of my house we they passed on stephen jackson, Chris perry and Kevin jones and took
Julis jones.

i laugh we they traded away this years pick.

I've been screaming about a tackle since Robertson went to the rams, he turned out to be a bus,t but since before bryant young retired if you know him when we lost stubafield this has all i wanted.

I remember Archie Reese, Pete Kugler, Michael Carter, and Louie Kelcher (lol) manning the nose. I am aware of the importance of a good nose tackle in the 3-4.

We passed on Wilfork (2X) for Woods, Ngata for Davis, and almost had Raji. I, too, am happy that Crabtree fell to us at 10.

I didn't want to spend $100 million for Haynesworth. I scratched my head when we didn't get Jenkins or Shaun Rogers. Or pick up Gravy Jackson (pun intended) off the waiver wire.

This "Franklin is a Pro Bowler" smacks a little of Dilfer's "Hostler is a Superstar Coordinator".

Takeo has been a great addition to the team but his neck is a tire and he has suffered a lot of traumatic brain injury playing LB for 10 years in the NFL. As Dilfer had so many concussions.

I was pleased that Franklin played better after losing weight and after being confined to (his forte) a 1 gap scheme. I too wanted Raji but not at the expense of Crabs.

Lets hope Balmer / Soap can form a good NT / LT rotation. Franklin can play well in spurts so he should not be a 3 down player.

[ Edited by wysiwyg on Jun 28, 2009 at 01:46:34 ]

When I read the article it sounded like the players thought he was more underappreciated than underrated.

I would have to say Shaun Hill. The guy has a 7-3 record as a starter, and half of the zoners, in addition to half of the columnists in football believe that we serious issues at Quarterback. Sure, he has not started for an entire season, and his upside may be limited, does any other statistic really matter?

Originally posted by jta854:
When I read the article it sounded like the players thought he was more underappreciated than underrated.

Not sure there is a difference.

Underrate--- not recognize, or underestimate, the extent, value, or importance of.

Under appreciate --- not recognize, or underestimate, the value or significance of

Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
I would be curious to get the opinion of someone who has legitimate experience watching DT on tape. Some positions are easy to observe (QB, WR, RB, LB, etc.), however its very difficult to objectively judge a DT, especially a 3-4 NT. And normally what I go off of, is either sacks by the OLBs --which is a good reflection of the DL as a hole, but could be misleading due to the quality of the OLBs themselves--and the media coverage. Based on these two metrics, Franklin is nothing special. The niners are pathetic at rushing the passer, but our D-line does not exactly get much recognition from the media. Borrows's most recent article, for example, talks about how the team would like to replace Franklin as a starter. So, I would like to know. Is he very underrated and the kind of NT that can be the anchor of a dominant defense, or are his defensive teammates simply saying that to drive home the point that he's not as bad as everyone thinks he is? If he's truly as good as some of the lines in that article indicate, we are one pass rusher, and a starting quality CB away from having a very dominant defense

Look at the article again. Spikes says that he thinks Franklin is better than most of the guys that made it to the ProBowl. Thats a far cry from saying, "he's not as bad as everyone thinks he is."

Originally posted by buck:

Originally posted by jta854:
When I read the article it sounded like the players thought he was more underappreciated than underrated.

Not sure there is a difference.

Underrate--- not recognize, or underestimate, the extent, value, or importance of.

Under appreciate --- not recognize, or underestimate, the value or significance of

To me underrated is more about how good of a player they are.

Underappreciated is about your deeds going unnoticed.

Originally posted by RollinWith21n52:
I would be curious to get the opinion of someone who has legitimate experience watching DT on tape.

Watch the Niners in the mid to late 80's - Michael Carter! The guy seemed almost impossible to move out of there. Low center of gravity; incredibly strong.