QB Competition

Originally posted by Jersey9er:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by Jersey9er:

Originally posted by oldman9er:
This was to go in the now-locked thread, so I'm just sticking it here instead. Not trying for an argument... it's just something I was thinking of in response to a comment.

Originally posted by alanbeez22:
numbers game. how often does a pass go for over 30 yards? not often right? and shaun hill is accurate between the 5-30 yards right? so if he's accurate for 90% of the game and alex smith is not accurate between the 5-30 yard range. then what does arm strength really matter if you're RARELY THROWING A LONG BOMB! ALL THIS STUPID ARM STRENGTH TALK IS BULLSHHHHHHHHH-it. ACCURACY IS WHAT MATTERS IN THE LEAGUE! NOT SOMEONE WHO COULD LAUNCH IT! if we wanted a person who could throw the long ball we would go and trade for jamarcus russell! he has a arm. not accurate! that's why garcia is fighting for the #1 spot for the raiders! NO STRONG ARM! accurate between 5-30 yards!

YES IM MAD!

It's not so much about how often deeper passes are thrown... it's about the threat of having a deep ball thrown on any given pass play. Whether it actually happens often or not doesn't matter.

Assume for the moment that all things are equal with our two QB's in regard to accuracy and vision...

If Hill is under center, it would make sense for DBs to play closer to their man/LOS. This would lessen the cushion and room that Hill could squeeze in the short and intermediate passes... therefore daring Hill to try one deep. ( makes it tougher for your run game too ) CBs can play more inside of their man and dare Hill to try and throw the sideline patterns... can he get the needed velocity on those out-passes before the CB can jump on it?

If Alex is under center, it would make sense for DBs to play their game more honestly (i.e. less press, more off). This would open up more room because the deep ball becomes more of a threat on any given pass play. ( also, opens up room for your RB ) It affects the very playcall, due to deciding where your safeties are needed. CBs must account more for every inch of the field, as an accurate and stronger arm can fire the ball in anywhere with less chance of INT-floaters.

So all things equal? [b]You want the stronger arm (duh, I know).[/b]

Right there with ya brotha. on a post that just got closed, someone said which would you rather have, a weak armed accurate qb or a strong armed inaccurate one. Well if anyone read about what was said, by smith, sing, scotty, and above all hill himself since the beginning of this offseason, says that smith´s arm hasnt looked this good in a long time, accurate passes with zip. So to the person that wrote the 2 options, it should say as a current up to date assessment, words from Sing, both men are on the same playing level. So now it should read; weak arm accurate qb, or strong arm accurate qb. And i dont think i have to say which one it should be. But for the crazies out there, that misinterpret, it should be the stronger arm, just like you said old man:)

I'm the one that wrote that, and I agree that if Smith's accuracy, ability to read the D, ability to lead, and speed of release are the same as Hill's then Smith (because of the stronger arm) should start.

The thing is, I don't think all things are equal... And obviously neither does Sing. he's stated that if he had to choose one of these guys to go with right now, It would be Hill...

Of course it would be silly billy gum drops, sorry watching blankman wit my son. He did finish the season, so by DEFAULT, he would be the starter. 'Can you imagine the headlines if it read qb thats been out for 2 years, wows em in OTA´S and is named the starter, over the guy that helped us finish the season. We´d definitely be the laughing stock of the league. And if your words were true, then you would also be saying that sing is blowing smoke like nolan, and we all agree he´s a man of truth, conviction, and no bs. So if by his standards it´s equal then thats good enough for me. So come on brotha d, throw in the towel on this one.

Wait, what do I need to throw in the towel on? I agreed with you, that if all things were equal then Smith should start. I think that everybody knows that all things are not equal though...

Originally posted by D_Niner:


Wait, what do I need to throw in the towel on? I agreed with you, that if all things were equal then Smith should start. I think that everybody knows that all things are not equal though...

You think wrong... in fact, NO ONE knows whether things are equal or not in terms of accuracy and field vision. I do agree that if Hill is THAT much superior in these things when week 3 of preseason comes? Then Hill should start. At this point, all things are on equal footing... says Mikey S.

Originally posted by Leathaface:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by swim4speed:
We all know that Alex Smith's best season was in 2006 with Norv Turner. That season he threw 16 TD's, but also 16 interceptions. That is not good. With more attempts, he would have thrown over 20 interceptions. His completion % was 58. That is not good. His QB rating was 74, I think. That is mediocre.

His first 3 games of 2007, he played poorly. He still looked very mediocre and in fact looked like he got worse from 2006. They won 2 games DESPITE alex's poor performances.

Statistically speaking he did get worse. I created some trend charts for various QB stats and in all categories that I looked at, Alex started regressing or wearing down over the second 1/2 of 2006. Unfortunately this trend continued into the beginning of 2007 (before the injury).

This is precisely what I've been saying in about 20 Alex Smith threads now...

Alex PEAKED in the first quarter of the 2006 season. Since then, he has lost all confidence and has regressed. Of course he made some good plays in the rest of the '06 season (as you'd expect in those many games), but his play overall took a turn for the worst.

I hear ya leather. I'm not sure where I got the idea to look this up; but, it was probably from one of your earlier posts...

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by D_Niner:


Wait, what do I need to throw in the towel on? I agreed with you, that if all things were equal then Smith should start. I think that everybody knows that all things are not equal though...

You think wrong... in fact, NO ONE knows whether things are equal or not in terms of accuracy and field vision. I do agree that if Hill is THAT much superior in these things when week 3 of preseason comes? Then Hill should start. At this point, all things are on equal footing... says Mikey S.

Huh?... The fact that there's a competition means that everyone involved agrees that all things are not equal. If they were all equal then it's a no brainer; you would go with the stronger QB.

Originally posted by Leathaface:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by swim4speed:
We all know that Alex Smith's best season was in 2006 with Norv Turner. That season he threw 16 TD's, but also 16 interceptions. That is not good. With more attempts, he would have thrown over 20 interceptions. His completion % was 58. That is not good. His QB rating was 74, I think. That is mediocre.

His first 3 games of 2007, he played poorly. He still looked very mediocre and in fact looked like he got worse from 2006. They won 2 games DESPITE alex's poor performances.

Statistically speaking he did get worse. I created some trend charts for various QB stats and in all categories that I looked at, Alex started regressing or wearing down over the second 1/2 of 2006. Unfortunately this trend continued into the beginning of 2007 (before the injury).

This is precisely what I've been saying in about 20 Alex Smith threads now...

Alex PEAKED in the first quarter of the 2006 season. Since then, he has lost all confidence and has regressed. Of course he made some good plays in the rest of the '06 season (as you'd expect in those many games), but his play overall took a turn for the worst.

his play overall took a turn for the worst

Like someone mentioned in a previous post, Smith doesn't have the "IT" factor. You look around the league at the starting QBs of successful teams.. Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, etc..., They all have that "IT" factor that allow them to take control of their offense and their teams, have their teammates and coaches believe in them, go out on the field, make plays, come back in the 4th quarter to win games, and win games in general.

I don't see ANY of these qualities in Alex Smith.

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by D_Niner:


Wait, what do I need to throw in the towel on? I agreed with you, that if all things were equal then Smith should start. I think that everybody knows that all things are not equal though...

You think wrong... in fact, NO ONE knows whether things are equal or not in terms of accuracy and field vision. I do agree that if Hill is THAT much superior in these things when week 3 of preseason comes? Then Hill should start. At this point, all things are on equal footing... says Mikey S.

Huh?... The fact that there's a competition means that everyone involved agrees that all things are not equal. If they were all equal then it's a no brainer; you would go with the stronger QB.

Okay, not wording it well, I guess. First, Mike needed to see if Alex could prove to have his shoulder back... check. Then he needed to see if he could get his basic accuracy back... check. Now, he simply needs to see if Alex can keep said accuracy while facing a real pass rush... TBD (to be determined). As of now, Hill gets the slight nod. If we look at it in kid's terms... Madden terms... they are even in overall, but for different reasons. While Alex has the superior arm strength... Hill has the more up to date proven pocket presence. The scheme is familiar and uncomplicated, so they both should be level there. So all that's left is to see if Alex can prove pocket presence under live bullets. If he can, then he is our starting QB.

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by D_Niner:


Wait, what do I need to throw in the towel on? I agreed with you, that if all things were equal then Smith should start. I think that everybody knows that all things are not equal though...

You think wrong... in fact, NO ONE knows whether things are equal or not in terms of accuracy and field vision. I do agree that if Hill is THAT much superior in these things when week 3 of preseason comes? Then Hill should start. At this point, all things are on equal footing... says Mikey S.

Huh?... The fact that there's a competition means that everyone involved agrees that all things are not equal. If they were all equal then it's a no brainer; you would go with the stronger QB.

Okay, not wording it well, I guess. First, Mike needed to see if Alex could prove to have his shoulder back... check. Then he needed to see if he could get his basic accuracy back... check. Now, he simply needs to see if Alex can keep said accuracy while facing a real pass rush... TBD (to be determined). As of now, Hill gets the slight nod. If we look at it in kid's terms... Madden terms... they are even in overall, but for different reasons. While Alex has the superior arm strength... Hill has the more up to date proven pocket presence. The scheme is familiar and uncomplicated, so they both should be level there. So all that's left is to see if Alex can prove pocket presence under live bullets. If he can, then he is our starting QB.

Ok, I get it. You're arguing a completely different point than the one we were discussing. We were discussing that if two QB's had the same accuracy, the same decision making ability, the same pocket presence, etc... But; only had one difference (ability to throw the deep ball), then you automatically go with the strong arm guy that can get it down the field...

Now onto your point, I agree with you. The QB's are not equal in all these areas. That's why we have the competition. Alex has strengths that Hill lacks and Hill has strengths that Smith lacks. When you weight it all out they are a lot closer then some on here care to admit.

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by D_Niner:


Wait, what do I need to throw in the towel on? I agreed with you, that if all things were equal then Smith should start. I think that everybody knows that all things are not equal though...

You think wrong... in fact, NO ONE knows whether things are equal or not in terms of accuracy and field vision. I do agree that if Hill is THAT much superior in these things when week 3 of preseason comes? Then Hill should start. At this point, all things are on equal footing... says Mikey S.

Huh?... The fact that there's a competition means that everyone involved agrees that all things are not equal. If they were all equal then it's a no brainer; you would go with the stronger QB.

Okay, not wording it well, I guess. First, Mike needed to see if Alex could prove to have his shoulder back... check. Then he needed to see if he could get his basic accuracy back... check. Now, he simply needs to see if Alex can keep said accuracy while facing a real pass rush... TBD (to be determined). As of now, Hill gets the slight nod. If we look at it in kid's terms... Madden terms... they are even in overall, but for different reasons. While Alex has the superior arm strength... Hill has the more up to date proven pocket presence. The scheme is familiar and uncomplicated, so they both should be level there. So all that's left is to see if Alex can prove pocket presence under live bullets. If he can, then he is our starting QB.

Ok, I get it. You're arguing a completely different point than the one we were discussing. We were discussing that if two QB's had the same accuracy, the same decision making ability, the same pocket presence, etc... But; only had one difference (ability to throw the deep ball), then you automatically go with the strong arm guy that can get it down the field...

Now onto your point, I agree with you. The QB's are not equal in all these areas. That's why we have the competition. Alex has a proven strength (arm strength) that Hill lacks and Hill has strengths that Smith might lack. When you weight it all out they are a lot closer then some on here care to admit.

fixed with bolded?

Originally posted by bigmike55:

Originally posted by Leathaface:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by swim4speed:
We all know that Alex Smith's best season was in 2006 with Norv Turner. That season he threw 16 TD's, but also 16 interceptions. That is not good. With more attempts, he would have thrown over 20 interceptions. His completion % was 58. That is not good. His QB rating was 74, I think. That is mediocre.

His first 3 games of 2007, he played poorly. He still looked very mediocre and in fact looked like he got worse from 2006. They won 2 games DESPITE alex's poor performances.

Statistically speaking he did get worse. I created some trend charts for various QB stats and in all categories that I looked at, Alex started regressing or wearing down over the second 1/2 of 2006. Unfortunately this trend continued into the beginning of 2007 (before the injury).

This is precisely what I've been saying in about 20 Alex Smith threads now...

Alex PEAKED in the first quarter of the 2006 season. Since then, he has lost all confidence and has regressed. Of course he made some good plays in the rest of the '06 season (as you'd expect in those many games), but his play overall took a turn for the worst.

his play overall took a turn for the worst

Like someone mentioned in a previous post, Smith doesn't have the "IT" factor. You look around the league at the starting QBs of successful teams.. Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, etc..., They all have that "IT" factor that allow them to take control of their offense and their teams, have their teammates and coaches believe in them, go out on the field, make plays, come back in the 4th quarter to win games, and win games in general.

I don't see ANY of these qualities in Alex Smith.

Would you agree he has the BUST factor?

Originally posted by NinerGM:
Wow then Singletary must SUCK A$$ as a coach even giving Alex Smith a chance to compete. Raye and his coaches are absolute MORONS. I mean really. WTF are they doing?

According to D_Niner, Singletary should just LOOK AT THE FACTS and realize he's not qualified to make the most basic decision a head coach can make about the team - choosing a starting QB. Rather, he's going to allow a scrub like Smith to compete.

................. because that's what you guys are really saying.

You can't like the coach but hate the process by which he's using to determine starters on the team.

So this is what I don't understand about Smith haters - if you're so sure he's a bust, then doesn't this competition make all the offensive coaches idiots? I mean why don't you just really take the next logical step in the argument.

I'll tell you why - because none of you will question Singletary's football knowledge or question the team's decisions. ... because ultimately it's a decision made by the coaches and the staff.

So don't just end the "analysis" of facts there - take it to it's logical conclusion.

Singletary sucks.

Which I know most of you (and I don't) believe for one minute.

Well there's an easy answer to that, the people that say Smith is a bust and doesn't deserve a shot are obviously smarter than Singletary.

I really hope QB Alex Smith does prove himself this year to all the nay-sayers! I can't wait to see how many of you eat crow and are suddenly on Alex's bandwagon again. You'll all be singing a different tune! MARK MY WORDS... If I am wrong, I'll admit it. I'm a man of my word, but I have not given up on Alex Smith. I think he can still do it.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by PA9erFaithful:

Originally posted by NinerGM:
Wow then Singletary must SUCK A$$ as a coach even giving Alex Smith a chance to compete. Raye and his coaches are absolute MORONS. I mean really. WTF are they doing?

According to D_Niner, Singletary should just LOOK AT THE FACTS and realize he's not qualified to make the most basic decision a head coach can make about the team - choosing a starting QB. Rather, he's going to allow a scrub like Smith to compete.

................. because that's what you guys are really saying.

You can't like the coach but hate the process by which he's using to determine starters on the team.

So this is what I don't understand about Smith haters - if you're so sure he's a bust, then doesn't this competition make all the offensive coaches idiots? I mean why don't you just really take the next logical step in the argument.

I'll tell you why - because none of you will question Singletary's football knowledge or question the team's decisions. ... because ultimately it's a decision made by the coaches and the staff.

So don't just end the "analysis" of facts there - take it to it's logical conclusion.

Singletary sucks.

Which I know most of you (and I don't) believe for one minute.

Well there's an easy answer to that, the people that say Smith is a bust and doesn't deserve a shot are obviously smarter than Singletary.

And how does that make them look...?

aaaaah... now you get it.

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by swim4speed:
We all know that Alex Smith's best season was in 2006 with Norv Turner. That season he threw 16 TD's, but also 16 interceptions. That is not good. With more attempts, he would have thrown over 20 interceptions. His completion % was 58. That is not good. His QB rating was 74, I think. That is mediocre.

His first 3 games of 2007, he played poorly. He still looked very mediocre and in fact looked like he got worse from 2006. They won 2 games DESPITE alex's poor performances.

Statistically speaking he did get worse. I created some trend charts for various QB stats and in all categories that I looked at, Alex started regressing or wearing down over the second 1/2 of 2006. Unfortunately this trend continued into the beginning of 2007 (before the injury).

Statistically speaking, the whole offense got worse.

-9fA

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by D_Niner:


Wait, what do I need to throw in the towel on? I agreed with you, that if all things were equal then Smith should start. I think that everybody knows that all things are not equal though...

You think wrong... in fact, NO ONE knows whether things are equal or not in terms of accuracy and field vision. I do agree that if Hill is THAT much superior in these things when week 3 of preseason comes? Then Hill should start. At this point, all things are on equal footing... says Mikey S.

Huh?... The fact that there's a competition means that everyone involved agrees that all things are not equal. If they were all equal then it's a no brainer; you would go with the stronger QB.

Okay, not wording it well, I guess. First, Mike needed to see if Alex could prove to have his shoulder back... check. Then he needed to see if he could get his basic accuracy back... check. Now, he simply needs to see if Alex can keep said accuracy while facing a real pass rush... TBD (to be determined). As of now, Hill gets the slight nod. If we look at it in kid's terms... Madden terms... they are even in overall, but for different reasons. While Alex has the superior arm strength... Hill has the more up to date proven pocket presence. The scheme is familiar and uncomplicated, so they both should be level there. So all that's left is to see if Alex can prove pocket presence under live bullets. If he can, then he is our starting QB.

I got a feeling you're right. I've been thinking Hill will start, but I more and more I'm thinking Singletary will go with Smith, IF Smith shows that pocket presence, and that he can move the chains with a short, medium passing game. I'd be curious to see what a poll of zoners say about who they think will get the nod (rather than who they think deserves it).

While I strongly defend and support Smith, I do feel the chances are not high that he starts the season for us. I prefer this though, to lessen the pressure.

I think Alex will come in whenever Hill gets hurt or plays poorly/mediocre.