NY Jets HC-Robert Saleh

Originally posted by LasVegasWally:

IMO, he has to prove himself this year.

It is "Show Time" for JL/KS and it's now or never for Saleh.

Hell be another Fangio with Ford and Bosa comming off the edges.

This is Kyle talking about the LBs:

Q: When Smith gets worked back in, is he a SAM or WILL or do you have all those guys sort of rotated?
"With us doing, our guys are, you know in the past here when we didn't play many nine techniques at all our SAM linebacker was always on the ball. That's why I always kind of talked about him in more of a three-four standpoint. It's just how offensive guys view it. When you mix in a lot more nines and stuff you have three linebackers off the ball, which makes those guys a lot more interchangeable. So, now it's just true two outside backers and you've got a MIKE who plays in the middle. We can still put guys on the ball, whether it's the SAM or the WILL, depends if they're to the three technique or the bubble. But, it's a lot, they're all the same bodies now. That SAM linebacker had been, it's more what we went to in the year, when we started playing more [LB Mark] Nzeocha, Malcolm, when we traded [Buffalo Bills LB] Eli [Harold]. And now that we are playing more nines we can put them a lot more off the ball so they're a lot more interchangeable."
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When Kocurek was hired he brought with him in depth knowledge of the wide 9 but I didn't think the team would employ it in base fronts. Based on Kyle's comments above, it looks like they are moving towards base wide 9, and less 4-3under. That puts 3 LBs off the ball for a 4 man front instead of a 5 man front like the 4-3 under.
Of the LBs, the SAM seems the most impacted here as he would not line up over an inline TE when the front 4 DL is playing wide 9. The 49ers did play Over fronts where the SAM was also off the ball, but it appears as though the frequency of the SAM being off the ball will increase in 2019.

Thanks for posting that, thl. I missed that part of the presser. That's interesting. I guess we can expect to see more wide 9/overs in base.

Man, i hope so, Giedi. It is just that with the NFL's most innovative OC/HC on one side and a, somewhat inexperienced , DC on the other, it is hard to fathom the two juxtaposed. The D will be better this yr, primarily based on some really top flite talent thru FA, draft, and trade. But if the D doesn't become more "Kyle-like" and show not just improvement, but huge gains, and some thotful , clever, workable surprises...then i can see change coming.

The Kocurek and Woods hires are very welcome, and hopefully we see giant strides made on D. But if not, well, we have potential upgrades in place, just as Kyle has RBs who are WRs, FB who is WR, as well as others who are tweeners ...and maybe that's what the Kocurek and Woods hires are...ie, somewhere between DB and DL coaches and heir apparents. If the additional specialized advice and guidance doesn't work, then kyle is now better positioned to bring in an in house upgrade. Frankly, i hope the new DB pass pro coach and the new DL coach are just exactly what we need to make this D not just great but gritty ...awesome.. But if in several months we are not seeing substantial D results ...then time to move on.

Kyle and JL recognized poor coaching at both DB and DL, and got rid of it...good moves. Based on what we had until this yr, it seems incongruous to have the NFLs best coached O but a laggard D, in part due to inexperienced D coaching. It is hard to see that lasting very much longer ...if we don't make huge giant steps on D.

IMO, only.

Best pic I could find online of what Kyle is talking about. He says they can still put the SAM or WILL on the ball to the 3t side or the bubble (between the 1t and the RDE). But that's what a base 4-3 wide 9 would look like. 4 man front. A wider front means runs up the middle must be met with aggressiveness from the LBs. The two DTs have to be stout to buy a tick more time for the LBs to fill.
Saleh always talks about setting the edge. Everything is funneled to the inside here and that's why the DTs and LBs have to shine for the run defense to be good.

Originally posted by thl408:

This is Kyle talking about the LBs:

Q: When Smith gets worked back in, is he a SAM or WILL or do you have all those guys sort of rotated?
"With us doing, our guys are, you know in the past here when we didn't play many nine techniques at all our SAM linebacker was always on the ball. That's why I always kind of talked about him in more of a three-four standpoint. It's just how offensive guys view it. When you mix in a lot more nines and stuff you have three linebackers off the ball, which makes those guys a lot more interchangeable. So, now it's just true two outside backers and you've got a MIKE who plays in the middle. We can still put guys on the ball, whether it's the SAM or the WILL, depends if they're to the three technique or the bubble. But, it's a lot, they're all the same bodies now. That SAM linebacker had been, it's more what we went to in the year, when we started playing more [LB Mark] Nzeocha, Malcolm, when we traded [Buffalo Bills LB] Eli [Harold]. And now that we are playing more nines we can put them a lot more off the ball so they're a lot more interchangeable."
-------------
When Kocurek was hired he brought with him in depth knowledge of the wide 9 but I didn't think the team would employ it in base fronts. Based on Kyle's comments above, it looks like they are moving towards base wide 9, and less 4-3under. That puts 3 LBs off the ball for a 4 man front instead of a 5 man front like the 4-3 under.
Of the LBs, the SAM seems the most impacted here as he would not line up over an inline TE when the front 4 DL is playing wide 9. The 49ers did play Over fronts where the SAM was also off the ball, but it appears as though the frequency of the SAM being off the ball will increase in 2019.

The harbinger of a 4-2-5 defense with a front four that can dominate the LOS *and* rush the passer.

Having said that, it feels like they are going more towards the Kiffen defense and a straight 4-3, vs a seifert/Carroll 3-4 under. If they go Kiffen, next year I'd love for them to draft a strong safety/linebacker hybrid like John Lynch was when he played that dungey defense.

Originally posted by thl408:

Best pic I could find online of what Kyle is talking about. He says they can still put the SAM or WILL on the ball to the 3t side or the bubble (between the 1t and the RDE). But that's what a base 4-3 wide 9 would look like. 4 man front. A wider front means runs up the middle must be met with aggressiveness from the LBs. The two DTs have to be stout to buy a tick more time for the LBs to fill.
Saleh always talks about setting the edge. Everything is funneled to the inside here and that's why the DTs and LBs have to shine for the run defense to be good.

If that's what they do, they're going to have to adjust their cover 3 LB zone assignments in coverage, no?

I wonder if they move Fred to Will this season to allow him to play alley to flat like he did in college.

Originally posted by Heroism:
If that's what they do, they're going to have to adjust their cover 3 LB zone assignments in coverage, no?

I wonder if they move Fred to Will this season to allow him to play alley to flat like he did in college.

If I'm visualizing it correctly, I think the pic above and a 4-3 Over front will have similar zone assignments for the LBs. The strong safety is the wildcard as he can be used to cover any of the 4 underneath zones depending on the playcall, and that would affect what the 3 LBs do.

While putting Warner at WILL would put Kwon at MIKE (his position in TB), it would mean another change for Warner, even if it's back to what he is more accustomed to in college. But if Kyle said the positions are now very interchangeable, maybe they entertain that idea.

If the SAM is over the 3, wouldn't he just play the strong hook? Dropping to the strong flat from that spot seems disadvantageous.

Mike goes to the other hook and Will to weak flat. That's how I'm picturing a cover 3 from a base over front.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Man, i hope so, Giedi. It is just that with the NFL's most innovative OC/HC on one side and a, somewhat inexperienced , DC on the other, it is hard to fathom the two juxtaposed. The D will be better this yr, primarily based on some really top flite talent thru FA, draft, and trade. But if the D doesn't become more "Kyle-like" and show not just improvement, but huge gains, and some thotful , clever, workable surprises...then i can see change coming.

The Kocurek and Woods hires are very welcome, and hopefully we see giant strides made on D. But if not, well, we have potential upgrades in place, just as Kyle has RBs who are WRs, FB who is WR, as well as others who are tweeners ...and maybe that's what the Kocurek and Woods hires are...ie, somewhere between DB and DL coaches and heir apparents. If the additional specialized advice and guidance doesn't work, then kyle is now better positioned to bring in an in house upgrade. Frankly, i hope the new DB pass pro coach and the new DL coach are just exactly what we need to make this D not just great but gritty ...awesome.. But if in several months we are not seeing substantial D results ...then time to move on.

Kyle and JL recognized poor coaching at both DB and DL, and got rid of it...good moves. Based on what we had until this yr, it seems incongruous to have the NFLs best coached O but a laggard D, in part due to inexperienced D coaching. It is hard to see that lasting very much longer ...if we don't make huge giant steps on D.

IMO, only.

I think one of Saleh's weaknesses is disguising and adjusting his defense. Top flight defensive coaches gives false looks to an offense just the way Kyle gives false looks to the defense. It's just a lot harder because with motion and formations a good offensive coach can figure out if you are in man or zone (for example),

Top flight defensive coaches wont just put their best cornerback on the opposing teams best WR's, instead one adjustment is to double the opposing teams *best* reciever and put their best cornerback on the opposing teams *second best* reciever. Making the offense basically play left handed. Unfortunately Saleh lacks some of that kind of ability to adjust.

Originally posted by Heroism:
If the SAM is over the 3, wouldn't he just play the strong hook? Dropping to the strong flat from that spot seems disadvantageous.

Mike goes to the other hook and Will to weak flat. That's how I'm picturing a cover 3 from a base over front.

yeah. Before, our box safety(they called it box safety if you notice more than strong safety because it wasn't too irregular for him to line up on the weakside), would play hook or weakside curl/flat. In an off-ball 4-3 you're going to see that SAM playing more hook and the box safety being a true SS and playing more curl/flat, but we could play buzz coverage.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Man, i hope so, Giedi. It is just that with the NFL's most innovative OC/HC on one side and a, somewhat inexperienced , DC on the other, it is hard to fathom the two juxtaposed. The D will be better this yr, primarily based on some really top flite talent thru FA, draft, and trade. But if the D doesn't become more "Kyle-like" and show not just improvement, but huge gains, and some thotful , clever, workable surprises...then i can see change coming.

The Kocurek and Woods hires are very welcome, and hopefully we see giant strides made on D. But if not, well, we have potential upgrades in place, just as Kyle has RBs who are WRs, FB who is WR, as well as others who are tweeners ...and maybe that's what the Kocurek and Woods hires are...ie, somewhere between DB and DL coaches and heir apparents. If the additional specialized advice and guidance doesn't work, then kyle is now better positioned to bring in an in house upgrade. Frankly, i hope the new DB pass pro coach and the new DL coach are just exactly what we need to make this D not just great but gritty ...awesome.. But if in several months we are not seeing substantial D results ...then time to move on.

Kyle and JL recognized poor coaching at both DB and DL, and got rid of it...good moves. Based on what we had until this yr, it seems incongruous to have the NFLs best coached O but a laggard D, in part due to inexperienced D coaching. It is hard to see that lasting very much longer ...if we don't make huge giant steps on D.

IMO, only.

I think one of Saleh's weaknesses is disguising and adjusting his defense. Top flight defensive coaches gives false looks to an offense just the way Kyle gives false looks to the defense. It's just a lot harder because with motion and formations a good offensive coach can figure out if you are in man or zone (for example),

Top flight defensive coaches wont just put their best cornerback on the opposing teams best WR's, instead one adjustment is to double the opposing teams *best* reciever and put their best cornerback on the opposing teams *second best* reciever. Making the offense basically play left handed. Unfortunately Saleh lacks some of that kind of ability to adjust.

That's very Bill Bellichick in NE. In Cleveland he was much more single safety but the past 10 years or so he's been very much what you describe. The downside to this, you're generally in a 2 deep when you go to this kind of idea, which the Patriots are most of the time. We might, now, have the personnel up front to do that and still contain the run, but it's a fundamental shift in how the defense is playing.

Originally posted by Heroism:
If the SAM is over the 3, wouldn't he just play the strong hook? Dropping to the strong flat from that spot seems disadvantageous.

Mike goes to the other hook and Will to weak flat. That's how I'm picturing a cover 3 from a base over front.

I think I get what you mean. In an Over front, the SAM would be too far to the inside to cover the strongside flat, making him a Hook defender. So you're saying the difference between an Over and an Under front is that the SAM covers the strong curl/flat in an Under front, but he's now a strong Hook defender in an Over front. Yeah that's right, and I think that holds true when they play wide9 base with three off the ball LBs.
What I said about the SS being a wild card is for nickel where the SS can play Hook or C/F. Disregard that.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Heroism:

If the SAM is over the 3, wouldn't he just play the strong hook? Dropping to the strong flat from that spot seems disadvantageous.

Mike goes to the other hook and Will to weak flat. That's how I'm picturing a cover 3 from a base over front.

I think I get what you mean. In an Over front, the SAM would be too far to the inside to cover the strongside flat, making him a Hook defender. So you're saying the difference between an Over and an Under front is that the SAM covers the strong curl/flat in an Under front, but he's now a strong Hook defender in an Over front. Yeah that's right, and I think that holds true when they play wide9 base with three off the ball LBs.
What I said about the SS being a wild card is for nickel where the SS can play Hook or C/F. Disregard that.

So overall, how do you guys think this will affect where and how much players play such as Armstead, Thomas, Nzeocha, M.Smith, Warner, Street and esp. Ford and Bosa?

I know Ford said he prefers rushing from the left side, Bosa the right predominantly but noted they'd rush from either side regardless.

Originally posted by jonnydel:
That's very Bill Bellichick in NE. In Cleveland he was much more single safety but the past 10 years or so he's been very much what you describe. The downside to this, you're generally in a 2 deep when you go to this kind of idea, which the Patriots are most of the time. We might, now, have the personnel up front to do that and still contain the run, but it's a fundamental shift in how the defense is playing.

I think a lot of the changes are being triggered by the new coaches, I know Kocurek and Kiffen are 4-3 guys and I can see Saleh moving more to a straight 4-3 vs the Cheat Carroll/Sefert 3-4 under, because I think that's where the assistant coach's comfort level is at. Also a 4-3 enables more of our talented DLinemen to get on the field more vs a 3-4.

It's a copycat league and Bellicheat's has won the last couple of super bowls, so clearly Saleh and the coaching staff have looked at Bellicheat's defense and incorporated some of it into their scheme. With the NFL continuing to liberalize the pass rules and protect defenseless players, I think a move to a 4-2 -5 defense is the future with a premium on cover guys (like a deion sanders) vs hitters like a Ronnie Lott.

I also think the wide nine is actually a good defense against lateral run offenses like Kyle's. It was interesting that the Patriots were shooting the gaps against the Rams in the super bowl. I thought that was an interesting way to counter the zone run.