Solomon Thomas--Stanford

Originally posted by NYniner85:

I'm not saying take him away from that but he can still do it if need be...I'm not making him a full time edge rusher but you can line him up there or really anywhere along that line. He produced on the outside so don't tell me he can't do it. He just happens to be a stud in the inside.

I'd rather move down but if not this kid is a pro bowler and anyone can use that especially us.

I love how you say he's not just because even though I've shown you he has more athletic ability than some of the best edge rushers in this draft and is doing it with and extra 10-15lbs.

Dude I've been fighting this battle for a few days now lol. I'm with you, I find the idea that he can't do it silly. When I ask why the answe is typically "he didn't do it in college" as if he would be the first guy in history to do something in the NFL he didn't do in college.

Justin Smith didn't play 3-4 DE until he did....he did alright.

Plenty of guys make position changes. The big question is whether they have the physical and mental ability to make the switch. Which one does Thomas not have?

Kid is a playmaker simple as that. Stanford played him mostly inside but the combine results and the eye test both show the kid can make plays with his athletic ability and moves very fast for his size.

Yes I agree Leo is not the best spot for him BUT I don't agree that he couldn't do a good job there if we didn't have a better option. Similar to Ward playing corner. I think his best position will be at FS but he was able to play corner very well when we needed him to be a corner and had someone else who could fill in at safety.

Originally posted by tjd808185:

There's a difference between a few plays and being drafted as an edge rusher. If we planned on moving Buckner to 3 and playing Thomas at 5 fine but he's not a Leo. There's no Leo's moving inside on passing downs on any 4-3 under d. They play wide and are typically 10 pounds lighter than Thomas. Thomas is an amazing athlete but it's a huge leap to put him out on the edge every play. No scouting reports are advising that and quite frankly it's a waste of his abilities. Reality is he's either going to have slim down to play Leo or bulk up to play interior. Or he plays 5 like Bennett.

Another post where weight is brought up why he's not a fit at Leo. To me that should never be in conversation. What does weight have to do with it if the guy moves as fast if not faster than the lighter weight guys? If anything that's better.

Have you seen his 3 cone drill numbers? That shows he's not stiff at all. He certainly has the ability to get around the edge. This kid with NFL coaching will be a stud. Hopefully it's for the 49ers.

Originally posted by jreff22:
How many of his 8 sacks did he produce on the outside?

Showing athletic ability in underwear doesn't prove anything. Is this your first year watching the combine? Every year guys look overly athletic and it puts people into a spin. Because he runs drills fast does not mean he's going to excel at bending the edge. You are hung up on numbers that guys put up wearing compression shorts. Do you think the fastest guys make the best football players? The combine is one metric used to judge a player.

He is going to set the edge on rushing downs. On passing downs you move him to exploit gaps and use his strength. He's not going to be battling LT's for pressure. No matter how hard you want it, he's not going to be doing it.

Combine numbers are actually extremely good at predicting NFL success for defensive linemen. His combine numbers are nearly identical to Justin Houston. He's an edge player with the freakish ability to great pressure on the interior when lined up there despite being technically undersized.

Funny you posted that, LilLeeroy. I was just looking and comparing their combine results. Everything is almost identical except for their arm length; Houston has 34.5" arms.

Originally posted by genus49:
Another post where weight is brought up why he's not a fit at Leo. To me that should never be in conversation. What does weight have to do with it if the guy moves as fast if not faster than the lighter weight guys? If anything that's better.

Have you seen his 3 cone drill numbers? That shows he's not stiff at all. He certainly has the ability to get around the edge. This kid with NFL coaching will be a stud. Hopefully it's for the 49ers.

The numbers are great and shows what a great athlete he is but tape, scouting reports are more important. I've seen people say he can play across the line but it's meant in a Bennett, Donald like way. You talk Cowboy but that's 6 years into his career 15-20 pounds heavier. Most of the prospects you guys compare him to I don't feel are good fits for a Leo either. We should be looking for a Cliff Avril and someone with 4.5 speed, lighter, more athletic. The guy is playing wide. Jordan Willis would be the player I'm keying in on now. His 10 yard split was the best since Avril's. Graded out as a 9.8 just behind Miles Garrett. Coach him up.

Originally posted by tjd808185:
The numbers are great and shows what a great athlete he is but tape, scouting reports are more important. I've seen people say he can play across the line but it's meant in a Bennett, Donald like way. You talk Cowboy but that's 6 years into his career 15-20 pounds heavier. Most of the prospects you guys compare him to I don't feel are good fits for a Leo either. We should be looking for a Cliff Avril and someone with 4.5 speed, lighter, more athletic. The guy is playing wide. Jordan Willis would be the player I'm keying in on now. His 10 yard split was the best since Avril's. Graded out as a 9.8 just behind Miles Garrett. Coach him up.

You're contradicting your own point in the first few sentences.

You say the numbers are great and he's a great athlete but that tape and scouting reports trump that. Yet what tape/scouting reports said Justin Smith would make an all pro DE if he added some weight?

It's called coaching and development. I like Jordan Willis as well and would be fine with taking him along with Thomas. My point isn't to draft Thomas to play at Leo. It's to draft Thomas because he can help our defense in many ways and play Leo IF needed. His best spot would be the so called Michael Bennett role. Right now the projection is for Buckner to play it but when it's said and done I think he's better off playing 3T but he's not because of Armstead but while I hope Armstead develops into a stud he hasn't shown that yet. He's shown flashes but flashes shouldn't have the new regime pass up on a stud player who is a perfect fit in the hopes that Armstead comes into his own.

Originally posted by adrianlesnar:
Talking solely sack production, Thomas certainly HAS NOT produced from the outside. Again, the real debate is are you fine with taking Buckner away from his natural position to draft Thomas? I'm fine with it, but it's not my first choice

It's a double edged sword. The guy played mostly inside so obviously production wise his sack numbers from the outside would be limited. Any guy playing on the inside will have smaller sack numbers. There's a reason there's only 1 interior pass rusher in the top 10 for career sacks in the NFL and he's tied for 9th.

There's no question Thomas would be fine rushing from DE. If his game was all strength then i can see the concerns. The guy is quick and moves very well. Implying that he can't rush from the outside is silly.

Originally posted by jreff22:
So he going to be drafted to play LEO? The biggest hole we have on the DL, he's going to fill that spot full time?

Every single scouting report is wrong? He's really an outside rusher and Stanford was using him incorrectly the whole time?

No he's gonna be drafted cause he's the 2nd best player in the draft that can play all over the line including in some packages as a edge rusher...everyone and their hard on for a "LEO" pass rusher jesus. WE are dog s**t vs the run and bringing in Mitchell who wasn't good at stuff the run anyway isn't the answer.

Why not bring in a stud who can play ALL OVER THE LINE and create havoc on the QB/RB next to Buck? Guess what there's great speed pass rushers all over this draft that can be the "LEO" that everyone is so fixated on. WHO makes that front 7 tick in Seattle Bruce Irvin, Avril or Bennett??

You say Barnett is the 2nd best "LEO" yet his not even on the same field as far as athletic ability goes vs Thomas (who's also 10+lbs bigger) the combine backs up those numbers. IF you have a chance to take the next Justin Smith, JJ Watt (small version) or Michael Bennett BECAUSE it makes the team better and the job of the "LEO" easier.

Originally posted by jreff22:
How many of his 8 sacks did he produce on the outside?

Showing athletic ability in underwear doesn't prove anything. Is this your first year watching the combine? Every year guys look overly athletic and it puts people into a spin. Because he runs drills fast does not mean he's going to excel at bending the edge. You are hung up on numbers that guys put up wearing compression shorts. Do you think the fastest guys make the best football players? The combine is one metric used to judge a player.

He is going to set the edge on rushing downs. On passing downs you move him to exploit gaps and use his strength. He's not going to be battling LT's for pressure. No matter how hard you want it, he's not going to be doing it.

Maybe he wasn't used on the edge full time because he was so dominate inside that every cross you mind? Doesn't mean he can't play that role....also for the 10th time I'm not drafting him to play straight up on the edge....HE CAN PLAY ALL OVER THAT LINE!

Numbers backup what he can do on the field...go watch his games buddy he's strong, fast, has plenty of pass rush moves, violent hands.

How about you go watch some of his games...he lined up against a LT all the time

Originally posted by genus49:
You're contradicting your own point in the first few sentences.

You say the numbers are great and he's a great athlete but that tape and scouting reports trump that. Yet what tape/scouting reports said Justin Smith would make an all pro DE if he added some weight?

It's called coaching and development. I like Jordan Willis as well and would be fine with taking him along with Thomas. My point isn't to draft Thomas to play at Leo. It's to draft Thomas because he can help our defense in many ways and play Leo IF needed. His best spot would be the so called Michael Bennett role. Right now the projection is for Buckner to play it but when it's said and done I think he's better off playing 3T but he's not because of Armstead but while I hope Armstead develops into a stud he hasn't shown that yet. He's shown flashes but flashes shouldn't have the new regime pass up on a stud player who is a perfect fit in the hopes that Armstead comes into his own.

6 years later. You do realize Smith came into the league at 267 pounds right? You pick up weight and strength as your career passes and yeah he was still a bit undersized to play the position when he came here but he had already proven himself to be a solid de. Again not to his full potential though because he wasn't a complete edge rusher and was ultimately better suited for the 3-4. What you don't get is Thomas is going to pick up weight to play interior he's not a Leo. There's no Leo's bouncing across the line. I do have to give you something. We have not decided on Buckner's best position yet and Jax plays it's best interior Malik Jackson at 3. It is possible that Buckner ends up at 3. Still they got Alolou at 5 who's a 300 pounder. The d will be fine with Armstead and Buckner once we find some good speed rushers.

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
I'm not saying take him away from that but he can still do it if need be...I'm not making him a full time edge rusher but you can line him up there or really anywhere along that line. He produced on the outside so don't tell me he can't do it. He just happens to be a stud in the inside.

I'd rather move down but if not this kid is a pro bowler and anyone can use that especially us.

I love how you say he's not just because even though I've shown you he has more athletic ability than some of the best edge rushers in this draft and is doing it with and extra 10-15lbs.

Dude I've been fighting this battle for a few days now lol. I'm with you, I find the idea that he can't do it silly. When I ask why the answe is typically "he didn't do it in college" as if he would be the first guy in history to do something in the NFL he didn't do in college.

Justin Smith didn't play 3-4 DE until he did....he did alright.

Plenty of guys make position changes. The big question is whether they have the physical and mental ability to make the switch. Which one does Thomas not have?

Kid is a playmaker simple as that. Stanford played him mostly inside but the combine results and the eye test both show the kid can make plays with his athletic ability and moves very fast for his size.

Yes I agree Leo is not the best spot for him BUT I don't agree that he couldn't do a good job there if we didn't have a better option. Similar to Ward playing corner. I think his best position will be at FS but he was able to play corner very well when we needed him to be a corner and had someone else who could fill in at safety.

couldn't agree more...we aren't a "LEO" away from being a dominant defense and if there's not one to draft at two and you can't trade down you pick the best player.... People compare him to michael bennett and Justin Smith, you don't pass that by.

I mean who makes that front 7 go in Seattle Bruce Irvin, Arvil, or Bennett?

Is he a no brainer LEO pass rush of the edge guy? No, but he can play all over the place including on the edge when needed. He's a mismatch nightmare and will make the job of the LEO much much easier.

Originally posted by tjd808185:
There's a difference between a few plays and being drafted as an edge rusher. If we planned on moving Buckner to 3 and playing Thomas at 5 fine but he's not a Leo. There's no Leo's moving inside on passing downs on any 4-3 under d. They play wide and are typically 10 pounds lighter than Thomas. Thomas is an amazing athlete but it's a huge leap to put him out on the edge every play. No scouting reports are advising that and quite frankly it's a waste of his abilities. Reality is he's either going to have slim down to play Leo or bulk up to play interior. Or he plays 5 like Bennett.

And I never said draft him as a LEO...he can play on the edge in certain packages he's athletic enough to do that.

IF you have a chance to draft the next Smith or Bennett you do it. I'm in the bandwagon of trading down but if we stay at two his my pick.

Originally posted by tjd808185:
6 years later. You do realize Smith came into the league at 267 pounds right? You pick up weight and strength as your career passes and yeah he was still a bit undersized to play the position when he came here but he had already proven himself to be a solid de. Again not to his full potential though because he wasn't a complete edge rusher and was ultimately better suited for the 3-4. What you don't get is Thomas is going to pick up weight to play interior he's not a Leo. There's no Leo's bouncing across the line. I do have to give you something. We have not decided on Buckner's best position yet and Jax plays it's best interior Malik Jackson at 3. It is possible that Buckner ends up at 3. Still they got Alolou at 5 who's a 300 pounder. The d will be fine with Armstead and Buckner once we find some good speed rushers.

Does it matter? You're claiming tape and scouting reports should override combine numbers and athletic ability when figuring out what a guy can or cannot do. Weight or athletic ability shouldn't come into the picture based on your point. Tape and scouting reports never said Justin would make a better 3-4 DE.

Who said Thomas is going to pick up weight? He can gain weight or drop it depending on where we think is his best fit. Or he could stay at his current weight and succeed wherever we put him.

I feel like this is a "what weighs more a lb of feather or lb of bricks" type of discussion.

If a Leo weighs 250 lbs but runs slower than Thomas who is 273 lbs...why are you ok with the smaller yet slower guy playing there but can't comprehend a bigger, faster and more athletic guy having success at the same position?

Once again there is saying Thomas' best fit is in the Michael Bennett role vs the Cliff Avril role and there is saying he can't handle the Cliff Avril role all together.

Also...speed rushers typically aren't very good at stopping the run, do you recall how awesome our run D was last year? Now Armstead had a busted shoulder but once again...assuming that he's gong to live up to potential and dominate can prove to be a giant mistake. We have 1 guy on our DL who we know is a great player who we can rely on. We need 4 guys. Draft Thomas, move Buckner inside and let Armstead prove he belongs on the same field as those guys.

Originally posted by genus49:
Does it matter? You're claiming tape and scouting reports should override combine numbers and athletic ability when figuring out what a guy can or cannot do. Weight or athletic ability shouldn't come into the picture based on your point. Tape and scouting reports never said Justin would make a better 3-4 DE.

Who said Thomas is going to pick up weight? He can gain weight or drop it depending on where we think is his best fit. Or he could stay at his current weight and succeed wherever we put him.

I feel like this is a "what weighs more a lb of feather or lb of bricks" type of discussion.

If a Leo weighs 250 lbs but runs slower than Thomas who is 273 lbs...why are you ok with the smaller yet slower guy playing there but can't comprehend a bigger, faster and more athletic guy having success at the same position?

Once again there is saying Thomas' best fit is in the Michael Bennett role vs the Cliff Avril role and there is saying he can't handle the Cliff Avril role all together.

Also...speed rushers typically aren't very good at stopping the run, do you recall how awesome our run D was last year? Now Armstead had a busted shoulder but once again...assuming that he's gong to live up to potential and dominate can prove to be a giant mistake. We have 1 guy on our DL who we know is a great player who we can rely on. We need 4 guys. Draft Thomas, move Buckner inside and let Armstead prove he belongs on the same field as those guys.

yup...I mean Buck and Thomas can get moved around all over. It's not about sticking a guy in one spot it's about creating mismatches on a weekly basis. I'd love AA to ball out and I still think he can, but you can't pass on talent like Thomas especially when our run D is a straight s**t show. Thomas graded out as the best run stopper DL in college football last yr (according to PFF) and ranked 6th in pass rush.

Does AA even fit our new scheme? That's a whole other question.

Drafting this kid and making him switch positions to play LEO would be extremely disastrous.

It'd be like moving Carradine around. Baalke will probably be laughing at us in a few years