9moon: QB First for Cleveland while Tenn went for Two

Originally posted by Alfienator:

Originally posted by 9moon:

Originally posted by BuZzB05:

Tenn will trade 49ers by two first rounds? Sure.. it is best #6 and #13 for 1st round.

uhmmmm... wacha talkin about WILLIS??

He's saying titans trading their 6 and 13 for the Niners 2 in Round 1 that he loves it with happy emoji face with hearts as eyes popping out.

^^^^ correct..

If Tennessee wanted to trade for 49ers #2 in the first round then 49ers love to trade #6 and #13.. the best is help our gain team. I don't like # 17 and #26 were so far. I like #6 and #13 the best draft.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by shmuck:

The Pats would never trade any less than a couple first rounders for Jimmy G. If Alex Smith can net 2 2nds then jimmy G could get a high first or 2 firsts at least. And the Pats are probably too smart to trade him away anyways. Plus we'd have no LT to protect him anyways if we made that move. He'd be under siege all day every day.

Based on what? Alex was coming off a career season, playing at a very high level. Garoppolo has 4 total starts and anyone trading for him would have to give him a massive salary raise almost immediately. They could maybe get a late 1st for him at the very best.

Two first might be a bit of a stretch but definitely a mid to high first. First, he's got actual NFL experience with tons of potential and that's much better than anyone in this QB class has to offer. He's sat behind and learned from Brady and Darth Vader and that could only mean good things. He really only had 2 starts this season but he's played really well during those three starts nearing a 70% completion rating, near 500 yards, 4 TD/ 0 INTs. He's also played well during preseason. To NFL GM's that gonna look a lot better than taking a chance on one of these crappy college kids coming out. On top of that, this is the Pats were talking about. They drafted him with a second and they won't let him go unless it's a positive net for them.

Originally posted by shmuck:

Two first might be a bit of a stretch but definitely a mid to high first. First, he's got actual NFL experience with tons of potential and that's much better than anyone in this QB class has to offer. He's sat behind and learned from Brady and Darth Vader and that could only mean good things.

Matt Cassel and Ryan Mallet also sat behind Brady. They didnt suddenly become great QBs through osmosis.

To NFL GM's that gonna look a lot better than taking a chance on one of these crappy college kids coming out.

What makes them crappy exactly? Trubisky and Watson are much better prospects than Garoppolo was coming out of college and you get them for 5 years at a reasonable salary. That is at least 4 years of being able to put a huge chunk of salary to other uses.

On top of that, this is the Pats were talking about. They drafted him with a second and they won't let him go unless it's a positive net for them.

You mean like trading former 1st rounder Chandler Jones for a late 2nd rounder and former 2nd rounder Jamie Collins for a late 3rd rounder? Both far more accomplished players than Garoppolo

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by shmuck:

Two first might be a bit of a stretch but definitely a mid to high first. First, he's got actual NFL experience with tons of potential and that's much better than anyone in this QB class has to offer. He's sat behind and learned from Brady and Darth Vader and that could only mean good things.

Matt Cassel and Ryan Mallet also sat behind Brady. They didnt suddenly become great QBs through osmosis.

To NFL GM's that gonna look a lot better than taking a chance on one of these crappy college kids coming out.

What makes them crappy exactly? Trubisky and Watson are much better prospects than Garoppolo was coming out of college and you get them for 5 years at a reasonable salary. That is at least 4 years of being able to put a huge chunk of salary to other uses.

On top of that, this is the Pats were talking about. They drafted him with a second and they won't let him go unless it's a positive net for them.

You mean like trading former 1st rounder Chandler Jones for a late 2nd rounder and former 2nd rounder Jamie Collins for a late 3rd rounder? Both far more accomplished players than Garoppolo

Not to mention Alex's value at the time was much higher than Garoppolo's is. I'd trade a 2nd and a 3rd but no way on Staley and Armstead.

Originally posted by 9moon:

You all are already putting the guy to the Bruce Smith level...

And you're putting Garoppolo to the Tom Brady level already.

Originally posted by shmuck:
On top of that, this is the Pats were talking about. They drafted him with a second and they won't let him go unless it's a positive net for them.

This is ridiculous for a couple reasons.

First, the Patriots don't hit on every single player they draft or acquire. They are very good at cutting their losses and getting whatever they can instead of losing players for nothing in free agency as Phoenix pointed out.

Second, drafting a player in the late second round, keeping them as a cheap backup QB for years (especially given the current inflated QB salaries - even for backups), and then flipping them for a very early second round pick when they have one season left on their contract is a very good return. If teams could do that consistently, they'd have a massive amount of cheap labor and would keep acquiring more and more draft picks every year.

If anything, I think the Patriots' reputation would make it tougher for them to get a first round pick for Garoppolo. They are known for letting players go at the right time and if they are willing to give up Garoppolo, trade partners are going to be skeptical about how good he is. I'm also skeptical about how good Tom Brady and Garoppolo are given everyone who starts at QB there seems to have success. Brady is having one of his best seasons at 39 and a lot of that success is due to who he has around him (offensive line, playcalling, and receivers).

This article points out that backup QBs without many accomplishments have been worth 1st or 2nd round picks in the past. Garoppolo has better stats than most of these guys, but I still think he can be had for a 2nd round pick at most, especially given the number of QB options that should be available in free agency/the draft in 2017.
https://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2016/09/jimmy_garoppolo_trade_market_r.html

Originally posted by BuZzB05:

Originally posted by Alfienator:

Originally posted by 9moon:

Originally posted by BuZzB05:
Tenn will trade 49ers by two first rounds? Sure.. it is best #6 and #13 for 1st round.

uhmmmm... wacha talkin about WILLIS??

He's saying titans trading their 6 and 13 for the Niners 2 in Round 1 that he loves it with happy emoji face with hearts as eyes popping out.

^^^^ correct..

If Tennessee wanted to trade for 49ers #2 in the first round then 49ers love to trade #6 and #13.. the best is help our gain team. I don't like # 17 and #26 were so far. I like #6 and #13 the best draft.

I'm with buzz

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Matt Cassel and Ryan Mallet also sat behind Brady. They didnt suddenly become great QBs through osmosis.

I never stated that was the main point. We've seen Jimmy play well and make all the reads and throws. It's just a bonus his tutelage was under these two.

What makes them crappy exactly? Trubisky and Watson are much better prospects than Garoppolo was coming out of college and you get them for 5 years at a reasonable salary. That is at least 4 years of being able to put a huge chunk of salary to other uses.

The first question isn't really relevant to the discussion. Doesn't matter how much better prospects they were coming out of college. We've seen Jimmy play at a high level against NFL teams. We haven't seen and won't see that until either of them make it to the NFL. Jimmy is more of a proven commodity while both the QB's you mentioned have major question marks surrounding their transition to the NFL. The chance of them busting out is a lot higher than the chance of Garopollo busting. And I doubt Garopollo would command that big of a contract not that it matters considering this teams cap room anyways.

You mean like trading former 1st rounder Chandler Jones for a late 2nd rounder and former 2nd rounder Jamie Collins for a late 3rd rounder? Both far more accomplished players than Garoppolo

Chandler Jones played four seasons of football for NE, and Jamie Collins played three . NE got production out of the two of them but felt it was time to move on. That's still a net positive for them. Jimmy'sonly played a few games for them. It would be wasteful to trade him away for peanuts, especially when he could be their QBOTF when Brady eventually retires.

another safety wtf is wrong with you people

Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:
This is ridiculous for a couple reasons.

First, the Patriots don't hit on every single player they draft or acquire. They are very good at cutting their losses and getting whatever they can instead of losing players for nothing in free agency as Phoenix pointed out.

But why would you label Garopollo as a lose? He could be their QB in the next few years if they wanted. And a QB you've got the chance to work with for 7 years sounds pretty good compared to just drafting a random.

Second, drafting a player in the late second round, keeping them as a cheap backup QB for years (especially given the current inflated QB salaries - even for backups), and then flipping them for a very early second round pick when they have one season left on their contract is a very good return. If teams could do that consistently, they'd have a massive amount of cheap labor and would keep acquiring more and more draft picks every year.

He's a QB though and they will always be worth more draft picks. Jimmy G compared to the 2017 QB class and I'm sure someone would give up a high pick on him rather than take a gamble.

If anything, I think the Patriots' reputation would make it tougher for them to get a first round pick for Garoppolo. They are known for letting players go at the right time and if they are willing to give up Garoppolo, trade partners are going to be skeptical about how good he is. I'm also skeptical about how good Tom Brady and Garoppolo are given everyone who starts at QB there seems to have success. Brady is having one of his best seasons at 39 and a lot of that success is due to who he has around him (offensive line, playcalling, and receivers).

Maybe but once again it's a big gamble taking someone in this QB class and with a QB whose actually got good NFL tape will be more enticing to GM's.

This article points out that backup QBs without many accomplishments have been worth 1st or 2nd round picks in the past. Garoppolo has better stats than most of these guys, but I still think he can be had for a 2nd round pick at most, especially given the number of QB options that should be available in free agency/the draft in 2017.
https://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2016/09/jimmy_garoppolo_trade_market_r.html

Their really aren't that many options for QB in this draft, it's pretty weak. And Garopollo has more potential then you'll find from any of the FA QB's.

Originally posted by shmuck:

Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:
This is ridiculous for a couple reasons.

First, the Patriots don't hit on every single player they draft or acquire. They are very good at cutting their losses and getting whatever they can instead of losing players for nothing in free agency as Phoenix pointed out.

But why would you label Garopollo as a lose? He could be their QB in the next few years if they wanted. And a QB you've got the chance to work with for 7 years sounds pretty good compared to just drafting a random.

Second, drafting a player in the late second round, keeping them as a cheap backup QB for years (especially given the current inflated QB salaries - even for backups), and then flipping them for a very early second round pick when they have one season left on their contract is a very good return. If teams could do that consistently, they'd have a massive amount of cheap labor and would keep acquiring more and more draft picks every year.

He's a QB though and they will always be worth more draft picks. Jimmy G compared to the 2017 QB class and I'm sure someone would give up a high pick on him rather than take a gamble.

If anything, I think the Patriots' reputation would make it tougher for them to get a first round pick for Garoppolo. They are known for letting players go at the right time and if they are willing to give up Garoppolo, trade partners are going to be skeptical about how good he is. I'm also skeptical about how good Tom Brady and Garoppolo are given everyone who starts at QB there seems to have success. Brady is having one of his best seasons at 39 and a lot of that success is due to who he has around him (offensive line, playcalling, and receivers).

Maybe but once again it's a big gamble taking someone in this QB class and with a QB whose actually got good NFL tape will be more enticing to GM's.

This article points out that backup QBs without many accomplishments have been worth 1st or 2nd round picks in the past. Garoppolo has better stats than most of these guys, but I still think he can be had for a 2nd round pick at most, especially given the number of QB options that should be available in free agency/the draft in 2017.
https://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2016/09/jimmy_garoppolo_trade_market_r.html

Their really aren't that many options for QB in this draft, it's pretty weak. And Garopollo has more potential then you'll find from any of the FA QB's.

It's definitely possible the Patriots think he's the guy and plan to keep him rather than give him up for a 2nd round pick. If that's the case, I think he stays and they may even move on from Brady. He's someone that can play right away, but a rookie QB is potentially much more valuable given they're playing on a rookie deal for 5 years while Garoppolo only has one year on his deal. I also think Trubisky, Watson, Kizer, and Mahomes have more potential than Garoppolo who doesn't have a great arm and is a little undersized. Personally, I would much rather see the 49ers trade up to draft Watson or Kizer than see them trade their 2nd round pick for Garoppolo. Garopollo may make sense for a team that needs a QB right away.

Garopollo has a very good shot at being an average NFL starting QB in my opinion which is valuable, but the 49ers are going nowhere anytime soon with an average NFL QB given the weakness across the rest of the roster. On the other hand, if you hit the lottery on one of these rookie QBs and they turn into a franchise QB while getting paid peanuts on their rookie contract, you put yourself in a very good position to compete for Super Bowls (see Russell Wilson).

If the Broncos hadn't used their 1st round pick on Lynch last year, Garoppolo would make a lot of sense because all they need is an average NFL starting QB to put them over the top. The Vikings thought this was the case for them, but that obviously backfired with all the injuries to their offensive line and losing Adrian Peterson. The only other team like that is probably the Cardinals and I don't know if Jimmy is a great fit there since he has an average arm. That could change due to injuries like we saw with Bradford, but right now I don't see anyone giving up a 1st for Garoppolo.

Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:

Originally posted by shmuck:

Originally posted by eastcoast49ersfan:
This is ridiculous for a couple reasons.

First, the Patriots don't hit on every single player they draft or acquire. They are very good at cutting their losses and getting whatever they can instead of losing players for nothing in free agency as Phoenix pointed out.

But why would you label Garopollo as a lose? He could be their QB in the next few years if they wanted. And a QB you've got the chance to work with for 7 years sounds pretty good compared to just drafting a random.

Second, drafting a player in the late second round, keeping them as a cheap backup QB for years (especially given the current inflated QB salaries - even for backups), and then flipping them for a very early second round pick when they have one season left on their contract is a very good return. If teams could do that consistently, they'd have a massive amount of cheap labor and would keep acquiring more and more draft picks every year.

He's a QB though and they will always be worth more draft picks. Jimmy G compared to the 2017 QB class and I'm sure someone would give up a high pick on him rather than take a gamble.

If anything, I think the Patriots' reputation would make it tougher for them to get a first round pick for Garoppolo. They are known for letting players go at the right time and if they are willing to give up Garoppolo, trade partners are going to be skeptical about how good he is. I'm also skeptical about how good Tom Brady and Garoppolo are given everyone who starts at QB there seems to have success. Brady is having one of his best seasons at 39 and a lot of that success is due to who he has around him (offensive line, playcalling, and receivers).

Maybe but once again it's a big gamble taking someone in this QB class and with a QB whose actually got good NFL tape will be more enticing to GM's.

This article points out that backup QBs without many accomplishments have been worth 1st or 2nd round picks in the past. Garoppolo has better stats than most of these guys, but I still think he can be had for a 2nd round pick at most, especially given the number of QB options that should be available in free agency/the draft in 2017.
https://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2016/09/jimmy_garoppolo_trade_market_r.html

Their really aren't that many options for QB in this draft, it's pretty weak. And Garopollo has more potential then you'll find from any of the FA QB's.

It's definitely possible the Patriots think he's the guy and plan to keep him rather than give him up for a 2nd round pick. If that's the case, I think he stays and they may even move on from Brady. He's someone that can play right away, but a rookie QB is potentially much more valuable given they're playing on a rookie deal for 5 years while Garoppolo only has one year on his deal. I also think Trubisky, Watson, Kizer, and Mahomes have more potential than Garoppolo who doesn't have a great arm and is a little undersized. Personally, I would much rather see the 49ers trade up to draft Watson or Kizer than see them trade their 2nd round pick for Garoppolo. Garopollo may make sense for a team that needs a QB right away.

Garopollo has a very good shot at being an average NFL starting QB in my opinion which is valuable, but the 49ers are going nowhere anytime soon with an average NFL QB given the weakness across the rest of the roster. On the other hand, if you hit the lottery on one of these rookie QBs and they turn into a franchise QB while getting paid peanuts on their rookie contract, you put yourself in a very good position to compete for Super Bowls (see Russell Wilson).

If the Broncos hadn't used their 1st round pick on Lynch last year, Garoppolo would make a lot of sense because all they need is an average NFL starting QB to put them over the top. The Vikings thought this was the case for them, but that obviously backfired with all the injuries to their offensive line and losing Adrian Peterson. The only other team like that is probably the Cardinals and I don't know if Jimmy is a great fit there since he has an average arm. That could change due to injuries like we saw with Bradford, but right now I don't see anyone giving up a 1st for Garoppolo.

I guess if you feel him and Brady are system Qb's I could see why you'd think he's average at best but I would disagree. We won't know unless he moves on unfortunately and by then the question of how much he will be worth is already answered. Shame. Also, I feel like the contract situation is overblown. He's not going to be commanding an enormous contract, in fact he'll probably get a relatively modest one because of his inexperience. Also, Watson is smaller and weights less and Mitch only has an inch and 15 less pounds on Jimmy. The arm talent is debateable.

Originally posted by shmuck:
I guess if you feel him and Brady are system Qb's I could see why you'd think he's average at best but I would disagree. We won't know unless he moves on unfortunately and by then the question of how much he will be worth is already answered. Shame. Also, I feel like the contract situation is overblown. He's not going to be commanding an enormous contract, in fact he'll probably get a relatively modest one because of his inexperience. Also, Watson is smaller and weights less and Mitch only has an inch and 15 less pounds on Jimmy. The arm talent is debateable.

Did not say anything remotely like calling Brady a system QB and I don't think Garoppolo is a system QB either. There's a difference between saying someone benefits from a system or their supporting cast and saying they can only be successful in a given system or with a given supporting cast. Garoppolo is going to get paid what Osweiler did at a minimum if he puts up decent stats next year. His floor is very high in my opinion - definitely higher than Osweiler's was when he got paid.

Every starting caliber NFL QB gets paid. The only way to get a good QB on a modest deal is to draft one.

Originally posted by shmuck:
I never stated that was the main point. We've seen Jimmy play well and make all the reads and throws. It's just a bonus his tutelage was under these two.
The first question isn't really relevant to the discussion. Doesn't matter how much better prospects they were coming out of college. We've seen Jimmy play at a high level against NFL teams. We haven't seen and won't see that until either of them make it to the NFL.

We've seen Jimmy play well for a game and a half. We saw Kaepernick play well for many more games than that and its pretty clear at this point that he isn't the answer. We saw Alex Smith play really well for a season and a half with the 49ers under Harbaugh which led to the 49ers getting a 2nd round pick and a conditional 2nd or 3rd rounder back in exchange. You can't say after a game and a half that Garoppolo is a sure thing. Go back and look at Cassel's stats for a whole season as a starter and then his stats for the rest of his career elsewhere. I think Garoppolo is a much better prospect than Cassel but there will definitely be questions from teams about whether he is a guy who can play as well and consistently outside of that system.

Jimmy is more of a proven commodity while both the QB's you mentioned have major question marks surrounding their transition to the NFL. The chance of them busting out is a lot higher than the chance of Garopollo busting. And I doubt Garopollo would command that big of a contract not that it matters considering this teams cap room anyways.

Not much more, he's started a whole game and a half, playing in a system where guys like Cassel have had success too. I don't buy that he's proven, he's an intriguing prospect but he's not much more of a sure thing than the guys who will be available in the draft.

Chandler Jones played four seasons of football for NE, and Jamie Collins played three . NE got production out of the two of them but felt it was time to move on. That's still a net positive for them. Jimmy'sonly played a few games for them. It would be wasteful to trade him away for peanuts, especially when he could be their QBOTF when Brady eventually retires.

You could argue that they've gotten their value out of Garoppolo as a backup QB too. Now if they opt to stick with Brady and trade Garoppolo, they'd likely go with another QB to develop alongside Jacoby Brissett. I just don't see this tremendous value for Garoppolo that you are claiming. If the Patriots could get a late 1st they should feel pretty blessed. More likely a 2nd and a 3rd is a pretty fair price for a guy who hasn't even finished two whole games in the NFL.

Originally posted by shmuck:
I guess if you feel him and Brady are system Qb's I could see why you'd think he's average at best but I would disagree. We won't know unless he moves on unfortunately and by then the question of how much he will be worth is already answered. Shame. Also, I feel like the contract situation is overblown. He's not going to be commanding an enormous contract, in fact he'll probably get a relatively modest one because of his inexperience.

The starting point for his contract will be the deal that Brock Osweiler got. You don't pay for past production, you pay for what you think a guy will be capable of. If a team acquires him with the idea of Garoppolo being their long-term starter at QB, the starting point is $16 million a year.

Also, Watson is smaller and weights less and Mitch only has an inch and 15 less pounds on Jimmy. The arm talent is debateable.

Both are better prospects than Garoppolo was coming out of college. Garoppolo had questions about arm strength, about ball placement and his ability to go through his progressions. Neither Watson nor Trubisky have arm strength concerns, both are more athletic and mobile, Trubisky at least showed outstanding ball placement and accuracy as well.