Myles Garrett - Edge Rusher

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Even if the team picking has zero at QB?

Path to the draft is still months away...the draft isn't the only way to get a QB. That said a lot of people still believe in BPA and that has to be Garrett.

Originally posted by jcs:
Path to the draft is still months away...the draft isn't the only way to get a QB. That said a lot of people still believe in BPA and that has to be Garrett.

yup agreed a lot can change...I will say QBs tend to find their way to the top even if they aren't BPA (example last yr) Heck the Browns might trade down with a team that needs a QB to get ahead of us.

I also have no clue how the Browns and the analytical group will evaluate things. It has been reported that they have been scouting him hard.

We will see I have no problem going Myles/Mitch depending on who's there. Still would like to trade for Jimmy G though

Best case is draft Garrett and solidify a pass rush.... Sign Romo or trade of a proven QB that can run the table the next 2-3 years until a prospect comes out that we can go all in with... I am still a fan of Kelly as a coach, but best for the team would to just start new! Fire Trent Baalke and Kelly and go all in on a Gruden or Shannahan and bring back the WCO.

Originally posted by jcs:

Originally posted by NinerSickness:
Nope. How often does a QB not go first overall? Trubisky is a great prospect, and great QB prospects will always go ahead of anyone else.

Go study some draft history....Dlinemen and OT's have been drafted #1 overall enough times to justify the pick.

You're right that they have, but they're only picked 1st when there isn't a QB in the draft who looks like a future franchise player. Mitch Trubisky looks like a franchise player.

And for the record: I'd take Myles over Mitch at this point. It's close, but I'd go with the safe bet & build a dominant defense & roll the dice on a guy like Luke Falk. Build a dominant team & throw a QB in there as opposed to the other way around.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Watson is listed by the school as 6-2, 215,

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000666358/article/first-look-scouting-clemson-qb-deshaun-watson

. . . . which likely he's closer to 6-1 205.

And imma just have to disagree with you (and apparently with most here on the Zone) about selecting Myles 1st. I'm sorry, but his position isn't killing this team's prospects to winning more than the QB position is. An OLB won't win us games like a QB will. An OLB can make our defense very good, but a QB will win or lose games for you. So that's a position I'm not coming off of. This team don't need an OLB more than we need a QB, period.

No I get it the QB position is the most important position in all of sports...this is the level of importance in building a team IMO

1st-QB
2nd-LT
3rd-Pass rush...etc

The issue is Myles is one of the best pass rush prospects to come out of the draft since 2011...he's a much better prospect than even Mack was. The QB class isn't even close to top notch. Most yrs the top QBs in this draft wouldn't be top 25 picks. We aren't a QB away from being good and we need talent all over the place. IF Myles is sitting there at 2 you don't pass up on talent like that ESPECIALLY when it's a HUGE need to begin with.

How silly would you feel if Myles turns into the next Miller and one of these QB prospects turn into the next Alex Smith and EJ Manuel ( not saying they will)??

I have no problem taking a QB IF Myles is gone and like I said the QB prospect out there is sitting on the NE bench lol give up a couple 2nds and get Myles.

See, we just cannot draft that way! We just can't. By that logic one could ask what if they both turn out to be stars. The problem is that you - nobody - know this. We are talking about an "inexact science". So teams need to draft where their team's needs are most deficient. Myles may wind up being Miller. In fact I think so. But Miller wasn't winning, much less the SB, without a better than competent QB. You can stretch that logic as far as you like, but it simply wasn't gonna happen. Are we a QB away? Nope! But at least with a competent QB we're on our way. An OLB give us a decent D, but that doesn't mean we're winning. Plus, this position can be addressed in UFA. There are several good, young players out there who will be UFA in 2017 out there that can be teamed with Lynch/Brooks:

Barkevious Mingo, 26
Chandler Jones, 26
Melvin Ingram, 27
Datone Jones, 26
Jamie Collins, 26

I understand that this QB draft class isn't "top notch", as you say. But ummm, that's what's they pay GM's and scouting departments for. They'er not paid to listen to pundits and let them tell them how to value these players. We're not filling our QB needs with what's gonna be on the street in 2017. If you don't like the coming QB class you'll love the QB FA class coming. Again, we cannot draft that way. Perhaps it's that draft thinking that has this team in the roster mess that it's in now. Regardless if Myles is there are not, if Mitch Trubisky is there we need to take him, trade back into the first to draft Reuben Foster. If he's not there then we trade back a few spots and get Reuben Foster, then trade back into the 1st to get DeShone Kizer if he comes out. Now, if Kizer stays then we're still better off settling for Deshaun Watson with our 1st pick, but still trading back into the 1st to Reuben Foster.

If our QB spot weren't in such a mess I'd be alright with going OLB first. But our QB and ILB spots are such in shambles, are such glaring game-turning weaknesses we simply cannot ignore them in the 1st round of the 2017 draft.

IMHO.

Originally posted by 49ersnum1:
Best case is draft Garrett and solidify a pass rush.... Sign Romo or trade of a proven QB that can run the table the next 2-3 years until a prospect comes out that we can go all in with... I am still a fan of Kelly as a coach, but best for the team would to just start new! Fire Trent Baalke and Kelly and go all in on a Gruden or Shannahan and bring back the WCO.

That is ridiculous. By then if it all works out according to your plan, you won't be drafting at No.2 overall already. Unless, you are telling me you want to do a Rams or an Eagles and basically trade the entire farm away to go up to get a top franchise QB at the top of the 1st round. If that is the case, then I will shut up. Plus, if you choose to fix your the pass rush first, it won't help the team to win games in the meantime as opposed to fixing the QB and the O first. Even during a rebuild you still need to win some games. That is critical in keeping the morale of the team high plus it will also give the fans some hope that this team is gradually turning around.

But, I definitely agree about firing Kelly, unlike you I think he sucks, I don't believe in his college schemes and systems at all. Case in point, there is just no way in hell he could do so much worse than Tomsula with a similar roster. It is not like Tomsula had a truckload of super duper All-Pro, Pro Bowl players neither. Personally, I would go for the Mike/Kyle Shanahan package.

Originally posted by NinerSickness:

Originally posted by jcs:

Originally posted by NinerSickness:
Nope. How often does a QB not go first overall? Trubisky is a great prospect, and great QB prospects will always go ahead of anyone else.

Go study some draft history....Dlinemen and OT's have been drafted #1 overall enough times to justify the pick.

You're right that they have, but they're only picked 1st when there isn't a QB in the draft who looks like a future franchise player. Mitch Trubisky looks like a franchise player.

And for the record: I'd take Myles over Mitch at this point. It's close, but I'd go with the safe bet & build a dominant defense & roll the dice on a guy like Luke Falk. Build a dominant team & throw a QB in there as opposed to the other way around.

Nope. They can always try to go for Watson with their second 1st round pick from the Eagles.

As for if you choose to build a dominant D as opposed to taking a future franchise QB and get the O rolling instead, the team will not be winning games in the meantime. Even during a rebuild, you still need to win some games, that is just reality. That is critical in keeping the team morale high plus it will give the fans some hope that this team is gradually turning around.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Rascal:
Kizer sucks, the guy is so overrated is unreal. He is inaccurate, consistently underthrows plus he has terrible mechanics with his huge wind-up.

For me, is either Trubisky or Watson and that's it.

No if ands or buts about it huh? I'd take Jimmy G over both in a trade in a heartbeat

No ifs ands or butts about Kizer whatsoever. You know I have always agreed with you on Jimmy G, but short of Jimmy G, it will have to be either Trubisky or Watson with the No.2 overall pick.

Originally posted by 9moon:
when you say Trubisky or Watson, are you talking about taking them with the 2nd to 5th overall pick??

5th? We only have a 2nd in the 1st round right? If you are talking about trading down, then I think is a bit too risky.

I was discussing this with NY and he thinks as many as 4 QBs could go within the top 10. I am not sure I agree, but is possible. You have the Browns, 9ers, Bears and the Jets, then outside of the top 10 you have the Cards.

Originally posted by CorvaNinerFan:
Yeah, I was calling for Buckner...but he's nowhere near Justin Smith's league yet. He may get close to that, at least I hope he does, but that's a tall order for a 2nd year DE. My point is all those saying draft Garrett may be disappointed with his production unless they improve the quality depth of the DL...and that would include finding the meanest, nastiest NT they can get. I believe once they solidify NT both Armstead and Buckner's play should improve commensurately. Still, this is a long way from Aldon Smith feeding off Justin Smith's beastliness. If Baalke or another GM can make the improvements to the DL then yeah, Garrett makes a lot more sense. If they don't, MG most likely won't set the world on fire with our current DL.

Exactly.

But, for an NT, I doubt you will need to lavish a 2nd overall pick on the guy. You can probably get one a bit lower down or may be via free agency. In that case, we will be able to land our future franchise QB in the 1st.

Originally posted by Rascal:

No ifs ands or butts about Kizer whatsoever. You know I have always agreed with you on Jimmy G, but short of Jimmy G, it will have to be either Trubisky or Watson with the No.2 overall pick.

I'm not a fan of kizer...I'm rolling with Myles over either of them.

Got plently of time to change my opinions

Originally posted by NYniner85:
I'm not a fan of kizer...I'm rolling with Myles over either of them.

Got plently of time to change my opinions

But, if you are rolling with Myles, that means you will probably be going with Kizer at the top of the 2nd if you still want a QB. Can't have the best of both worlds, bro.

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:

See, we just cannot draft that way! We just can't. By that logic one could ask what if they both turn out to be stars. The problem is that you - nobody - know this. We are talking about an "inexact science". So teams need to draft where their team's needs are most deficient. Myles may wind up being Miller. In fact I think so. But Miller wasn't winning, much less the SB, without a better than competent QB. You can stretch that logic as far as you like, but it simply wasn't gonna happen. Are we a QB away? Nope! But at least with a competent QB we're on our way. An OLB give us a decent D, but that doesn't mean we're winning. Plus, this position can be addressed in UFA. There are several good, young players out there who will be UFA in 2017 out there that can be teamed with Lynch/Brooks:

Barkevious Mingo, 26
Chandler Jones, 26
Melvin Ingram, 27
Datone Jones, 26
Jamie Collins, 26

I understand that this QB draft class isn't "top notch", as you say. But ummm, that's what's they pay GM's and scouting departments for. They'er not paid to listen to pundits and let them tell them how to value these players. We're not filling our QB needs with what's gonna be on the street in 2017. If you don't like the coming QB class you'll love the QB FA class coming. Again, we cannot draft that way. Perhaps it's that draft thinking that has this team in the roster mess that it's in now. Regardless if Myles is there are not, if Mitch Trubisky is there we need to take him, trade back into the first to draft Reuben Foster. If he's not there then we trade back a few spots and get Reuben Foster, then trade back into the 1st to get DeShone Kizer if he comes out. Now, if Kizer stays then we're still better off settling for Deshaun Watson with our 1st pick, but still trading back into the 1st to Reuben Foster.

If our QB spot weren't in such a mess I'd be alright with going OLB first. But our QB and ILB spots are such in shambles, are such glaring game-turning weaknesses we simply cannot ignore them in the 1st round of the 2017 draft.

IMHO.

Fair enough, but just because you need a qb doesn't mean you have to take whomever is there...I want them to draft top talent and it doesn't get better than Myles period. This team isn't gonna magically be a good team next yr regardless if we get a qb or not, we have too many holes to fill in one off season.

You throw out FA, but they get to choose where they go and why in the world would we want Mingo lol? Jones Collins Ingram will go to the highest bidder (jones most likely staying). Collins isn't a true 3-4 OLB either. It could happen and we will know that before the draft anyway.

Your crazy if you think they should trade down if Myles is there...you got to stop with thinking ILB is weaker or more important than a franchise pass rusher...pass rusher helps the whole D, they help with getting off on 3rd downs etc.

I'm not passing on the best player in the draft at a positon of major need (30th in sacks)...if Myles is gone then look at qb.

Originally posted by Rascal:

But, if you are rolling with Myles, that means you will probably be going with Kizer at the top of the 2nd if you still want a QB. Can't have the best of both worlds, bro.

If we have a bridge qb to let him learn for a yr sure...depends on falk and mahomes as well. None of these qbs in this draft are ready to start day one IMO.

That's why the Jimmy G trade is very appealing he can roll day 1

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Watson is listed by the school as 6-2, 215,

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000666358/article/first-look-scouting-clemson-qb-deshaun-watson

. . . . which likely he's closer to 6-1 205.

And imma just have to disagree with you (and apparently with most here on the Zone) about selecting Myles 1st. I'm sorry, but his position isn't killing this team's prospects to winning more than the QB position is. An OLB won't win us games like a QB will. An OLB can make our defense very good, but a QB will win or lose games for you. So that's a position I'm not coming off of. This team don't need an OLB more than we need a QB, period.

No I get it the QB position is the most important position in all of sports...this is the level of importance in building a team IMO

1st-QB
2nd-LT
3rd-Pass rush...etc

The issue is Myles is one of the best pass rush prospects to come out of the draft since 2011...he's a much better prospect than even Mack was. The QB class isn't even close to top notch. Most yrs the top QBs in this draft wouldn't be top 25 picks. We aren't a QB away from being good and we need talent all over the place. IF Myles is sitting there at 2 you don't pass up on talent like that ESPECIALLY when it's a HUGE need to begin with.

How silly would you feel if Myles turns into the next Miller and one of these QB prospects turn into the next Alex Smith and EJ Manuel ( not saying they will)??

I have no problem taking a QB IF Myles is gone and like I said the QB prospect out there is sitting on the NE bench lol give up a couple 2nds and get Myles.

See, we just cannot draft that way! We just can't. By that logic one could ask what if they both turn out to be stars. The problem is that you - nobody - know this. We are talking about an "inexact science". So teams need to draft where their team's needs are most deficient. Myles may wind up being Miller. In fact I think so. But Miller wasn't winning, much less the SB, without a better than competent QB. You can stretch that logic as far as you like, but it simply wasn't gonna happen. Are we a QB away? Nope! But at least with a competent QB we're on our way. An OLB give us a decent D, but that doesn't mean we're winning. Plus, this position can be addressed in UFA. There are several good, young players out there who will be UFA in 2017 out there that can be teamed with Lynch/Brooks:

Barkevious Mingo, 26
Chandler Jones, 26
Melvin Ingram, 27
Datone Jones, 26
Jamie Collins, 26

I understand that this QB draft class isn't "top notch", as you say. But ummm, that's what's they pay GM's and scouting departments for. They'er not paid to listen to pundits and let them tell them how to value these players. We're not filling our QB needs with what's gonna be on the street in 2017. If you don't like the coming QB class you'll love the QB FA class coming. Again, we cannot draft that way. Perhaps it's that draft thinking that has this team in the roster mess that it's in now. Regardless if Myles is there are not, if Mitch Trubisky is there we need to take him, trade back into the first to draft Reuben Foster. If he's not there then we trade back a few spots and get Reuben Foster, then trade back into the 1st to get DeShone Kizer if he comes out. Now, if Kizer stays then we're still better off settling for Deshaun Watson with our 1st pick, but still trading back into the 1st to Reuben Foster.

If our QB spot weren't in such a mess I'd be alright with going OLB first. But our QB and ILB spots are such in shambles, are such glaring game-turning weaknesses we simply cannot ignore them in the 1st round of the 2017 draft.

IMHO.

Why is Mingo listed here? The guy has 2 sacks over the past 3 years. Datone Jones has 4.5 over that same time period. Chandler Jones and Jamie Collins aren't going to hit unrestricted free agency - they will be tagged before their teams let them go for nothing. That leaves Ingram who is a decent player, but probably won't pick the 49ers out of all the teams that need a pass rusher (he's also nowhere near as good as Garrett).

This isn't a 1 year rebuild and we shouldn't be focused on drafting for need. We have to rebuild both sides of the ball and should be looking at BPA. Pass rusher opposite Lynch is a long term need (and a short term need assuming we cut Brooks). Garrett is by far better than any QB available, so he should be the pick (unfortunately, that's the reason he's going to be a Brown). If Garrett is gone, I'm fine with drafting Trubisky or Watson and trading up for Foster if he falls a bit.

Absolute best case in my opinion would be drafting Garrett at #2 and trading back into the first round for Watson or Kizer. If Watson and Kizer both go early, there are other options at QB in the 2nd and 3rd rounds and there's always next year where we should also be picking pretty high.