RB Leonard Fournette

Originally posted by tjd808185:
Every position has a 50% bust rate and with rb's there's a lot less of them going in the 1st. It has been devalued but that list contains plenty of Pro Bowlers too.

Also 90% of them aren't even on the same team that drafted them....pretty sure when drafting a player at two overall the point is to keep them on the team past their rookie contract no?

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
1. The fullback is not irrelevant in a WCO.

2. Moss is not different. If they had the number one overall pick I think the Vikings take Moss because he was the best player available in the draft (based on the information available at the time).

3. Shanahan has had at least one top 10 offense and every stop except for Cleveland, because well, it's Cleveland.

4. Of course he needs offensive talent. No one is saying he doesn't. But I don't think it's crazy to say if we took the field with our team as is, we should have more faith in Shanahan as an OC than Saleh as a DC. No one is expecting a top 10 offense. I'm not expecting top 15 either. But I do expect less predictability. I do expect us to get the ball in the hands of our playmakers. I do expect a QB that will not throw short of the sticks when trying to pick up a first down. I do think Vance McDonald can do some special things based off what we've seen in 2015-2016 from him. I do expect us to actually use Marquise Goodwin as a deep threat to open things up for everyone else. We still won't have a chance to be good until we add another running back, starting caliber receiver, and of course a quarterback. The first need can be filled later. I don't see how that can be denied. Needs 2 or 3 are a matter of priority. Which side of the ball do you prefer the build first (offense or defense), what available picks do we have, and what is the available talent? Based on the available talent, my confidence in our OC as opposed to the DC, I say go heavy defense, add a RB and QB in the 3rd and 4th rounds, and hit offense hard in 2018 including taking a QB again. But hey, different philosophies.

1. FB is less than a 30% player nowadays. Atl's last fb had a whopping 7 catches on the year.
2. Moss: Speculation is speculation
3. 1 in 4 years in Wsh. That sucks. Hou, Atl he was loaded.
4. Maybe but I think it's talent that's more important. McDonald is avg + Shanny really isn't a heavy te priority guy, Goodwin is nothing but a 40 time.

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
1. The fullback is not irrelevant in a WCO.

2. Moss is not different. If they had the number one overall pick I think the Vikings take Moss because he was the best player available in the draft (based on the information available at the time).

3. Shanahan has had at least one top 10 offense and every stop except for Cleveland, because well, it's Cleveland.

4. Of course he needs offensive talent. No one is saying he doesn't. But I don't think it's crazy to say if we took the field with our team as is, we should have more faith in Shanahan as an OC than Saleh as a DC. No one is expecting a top 10 offense. I'm not expecting top 15 either. But I do expect less predictability. I do expect us to get the ball in the hands of our playmakers. I do expect a QB that will not throw short of the sticks when trying to pick up a first down. I do think Vance McDonald can do some special things based off what we've seen in 2015-2016 from him. I do expect us to actually use Marquise Goodwin as a deep threat to open things up for everyone else. We still won't have a chance to be good until we add another running back, starting caliber receiver, and of course a quarterback. The first need can be filled later. I don't see how that can be denied. Needs 2 or 3 are a matter of priority. Which side of the ball do you prefer the build first (offense or defense), what available picks do we have, and what is the available talent? Based on the available talent, my confidence in our OC as opposed to the DC, I say go heavy defense, add a RB and QB in the 3rd and 4th rounds, and hit offense hard in 2018 including taking a QB again. But hey, different philosophies.

1. FB is less than a 30% player nowadays. Atl's last fb had a whopping 7 catches on the year.
2. Moss: Speculation is speculation
3. 1 in 4 years in Wsh. That sucks. Hou, Atl he was loaded.
4. Maybe but I think it's talent that's more important. McDonald is avg + Shanny really isn't a heavy te priority guy, Goodwin is nothing but a 40 time.

1. Ryan has more weapons on offense. In this offense, I think that our fullback is getting more looks lol.
2. I'll give you that.
3. He had two top 10 offenses (yards). And the years he didn't, look at the quarterbacks. If anything, I think more people should be banging the table for a quarterback than for a running back.
4. Of course talent is more important. I say add that elite talent on the defensive side, then hit offense with our top picks in 2018.

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
1. Ryan has more weapons on offense. In this offense, I think that our fullback is getting more looks lol.
2. I'll give you that.
3. He had two top 10 offenses (yards). And the years he didn't, look at the quarterbacks. If anything, I think more people should be banging the table for a quarterback than for a running back.
4. Of course talent is more important. I say add that elite talent on the defensive side, then hit offense with our top picks in 2018.

9th yards, 23rd scoring is not top 10. Round that out to average. Hey I'm one of the few that wants a qb but I don't see it happening.

I've always loved the GB, Pitt way of building an offense and that's hit up rounds 2-3 every year. It all starts with the qb though.

It's crazy, a year ago if you would have told me we could have a decent shot of drafting fournette and Watson I would have said no way. Of course we would still need to move up to get both but crazy what a year does to draft stock.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by tjd808185:
Every position has a 50% bust rate and with rb's there's a lot less of them going in the 1st. It has been devalued but that list contains plenty of Pro Bowlers too.

Also 90% of them aren't even on the same team that drafted them....pretty sure when drafting a player at two overall the point is to keep them on the team past their rookie contract no?

I don't think that they think past the rookie contract at the time they draft someone. Why would they? There are too many variables to think that far out. With a first round pick you get a five-year window. Why would you think longer term than that for an individual player that's never played a down in the NFL? It's certainly not "the point."

If the Niners aren't competing for a Championship within five years then there is a problem and they will probably be looking for a new coach at some point.

Originally posted by Lurker:

I don't think that they think past the rookie contract at the time they draft someone. Why would they? There are too many variables to think that far out. With a first round pick you get a five-year window. Why would you think longer term than that for an individual player that's never played a down in the NFL? It's certainly not "the point."

If the Niners aren't competing for a Championship within five years then there is a problem and they will probably be looking for a new coach at some point.

I think that's ludicrous to not think about a position and player past their rookie contract when drafting two overall.

There's a reason RBs don't get drafted high because they play a position that's not looked at as a long-term position. Why do OT, QB, DE, OLB getting drafted at the top more than any position? Because they're more important in the grand scheme of creating a top end football team and they tend to have longer careers with the same team.

Why people think we need to draft a RB at two outside of it being a flashy pick is beyond me...we have a HC that's made mid rd RBs into 1,000 yard rushers. Why couldn't he continue to do this in SF? We have a ton of mid rd draft picks to help us get the RB that Kyle wants.

SF was top 5 running the ball last yr and won two f**king games lol. We lost because we couldn't stop a noise bleed on D period.

Dam...127 pages and still counting...lol

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
1. Ryan has more weapons on offense. In this offense, I think that our fullback is getting more looks lol.
2. I'll give you that.
3. He had two top 10 offenses (yards). And the years he didn't, look at the quarterbacks. If anything, I think more people should be banging the table for a quarterback than for a running back.
4. Of course talent is more important. I say add that elite talent on the defensive side, then hit offense with our top picks in 2018.

9th yards, 23rd scoring is not top 10. Round that out to average. Hey I'm one of the few that wants a qb but I don't see it happening.

I've always loved the GB, Pitt way of building an offense and that's hit up rounds 2-3 every year. It all starts with the qb though.

I take it back to the QB for point 3 lol. Clearly they can move the ball, but can't put it into the end zone. But look at it this way, say Geep Chryst or Curtis Modkins (with Chip Kelly's offense) were calling the plays on those Houston, Washington, Cleveland teams. What do you think the offenses would've ranked then? And Atlanta had that elite talent for years, with a good play caller in Dirk Koetter and they never looked that good. I think with what we have now, along with another running back, Kyle can get us to 20-25th on offense. Nothing to write home about, but it's only year one. On defense, add the right players in that front 7 and we can answer a mystery I've been wanting to find out for 3 years. What would our secondary look like with a pass rush?

I'd love a QB too, but it's just not there.

Originally posted by JaggedJ:
1) That's a really poor use of the word audacity. Sorry to point it out needlessly, it's just my thing.

2) I couldn't care less if we took defense in the last ten drafts, our defense needs help in a draft year that is there to help defense. You don't draft based on which position gets a turn next.

3) Our biggest offensive issues are WR and QB. This is not the draft to go all in on those positions. If there was a QB/WR worthy of the 2 then most of us would be on board. However, there's not and taking Fournette will not improve that at all. There are defensive players who will improve our defense though which is why a lot of us prefer to go D.

Now if we were to fall back to the 10-20 area then I wouldn't rule out offense because that's where they'll be, but LF will be long gone by then.

Originally posted by genus49:
Is this post real life?

So just because we went with defense in the last 4 first rounds somehow that changes the fact that our defense was horrendous?

Are you legit making a case for our offense being worse than the defense?

Best defensive talent draft in years but we went defense 4 years in a row so now it's time to draft offense no matter what! And you don't just want to draft offense...you want to draft a RB at #2 overall...

Btw Joshua Garnett plays offense. Technically he was our last first round pick..guess it's time to draft defense in the first round and change things up.

This is such BS, OK so we will just fxxking carry on drafting defense for the rest of the century then!

And I did mention Joshua Garnett who was by the way a trade-up back into the end of the 1st round, hardly a full blown legit 1st round pick plus is not like he has been playing like a stud neither.

I am done with you lot. Post whatever BS you want.

Fxxking complete waste of time.

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
I take it back to the QB for point 3 lol. Clearly they can move the ball, but can't put it into the end zone. But look at it this way, say Geep Chryst or Curtis Modkins (with Chip Kelly's offense) were calling the plays on those Houston, Washington, Cleveland teams. What do you think the offenses would've ranked then? And Atlanta had that elite talent for years, with a good play caller in Dirk Koetter and they never looked that good. I think with what we have now, along with another running back, Kyle can get us to 20-25th on offense. Nothing to write home about, but it's only year one. On defense, add the right players in that front 7 and we can answer a mystery I've been wanting to find out for 3 years. What would our secondary look like with a pass rush?

I'd love a QB too, but it's just not there.

I don't judge things off how the worse coordinators in football would grade out there (Chryst). Kelly is a great offensive mind and the only thing that can derail him is lack of talent. He'd do fine in Hou and Atl, in Wsh it would be a mixed bag because he'd get Griffin killed. Ryan has thrown for 4,500 yards for 5 straight years now it's not like they were garbage b4 Shanny. No doubt Shanny opened things up and it's a combo of him finding his system backs added with already established elite talent like Ryan and Julio.

20 to 25th is a long ways away to go and I just don't think Thomas gives us a great front 7 just yet. No exterior pass rush still so we'd still end up having to throw down a 1st at de like Atl, Jax and Seattle have.

Originally posted by 49erphan:
I read the claims some have made here that Fournette's running style isn't a particularly good fit for Shanahan's tendency to run more outside zone. I followed a link to a video of an analyst showing a couple of examples of Fournette cutting back into a less favorable crease rather than going outside a good block by his offensive end. And I read these:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/leonard-fournette?id=2557973:
"Doesn't see cutback lanes developing as outside zone runner and prefers to keep runs play-side."

http://www.sportingnews.com/au/nfl/news/nfl-draft-2017-picks-leonard-fournette-scouting-report-lsu-running-back/olrsw77gknj01llkjtovfgpnv:
"Fournette struggles when his initial read isn't available, and he's not quick to adjust laterally. He is not best used on outside zone runs without a top-tier offensive line."

I wanted to see video analysis and citing of written analysis of Fournette's play by advocates that he does well on outside zone runs to assess which "side" provided the most compelling evidence. So I asked those who think that outside zone runs aren't a weakness of his if they could give that evidence. What I've read since asking (nobody directly responded to my questions - which is fine) are only assertions that he is as good at it as inside zone read, no evidence. A lack of evidence doesn't imply that they are wrong but it doesn't do anything to convince someone who isn't already convinced.

So I decided I'd check it out for myself. I researched to I make sure I understood what is involved in outside zone runs and then watched a long video of Fournette's highlights and videos of a couple of games. To my eye it looks like with a little bit of coaching up that Fournette would be nearly as good on outside zone as inside zone. I think Shanahan could make excellent use of him. There is a very good chance Fournette will be a top 3 running back this year. He has tremendous potential.

But in spite of that, I would prefer not to draft him at #2 or even #5. His aggressive running style increases his chances of getting injured and reducing his ability to perform in top form for more than 4 or 5 years. If the 9ers drafted him, I think they could very well get 3 to 5 excellent years (1200 to 1500+ yards per year) out of him, but I think through the first few of those years that the 9ers would be in building mode for significant parts of the team. Fournette could become an ex-blue chip player just as the rest of the team is fully maturing. At #2 I'd rather draft a player that has a good chance of being a blue chipper for 8 to 10 years or more. I think Hyde is a very good running back for a team that will be developing over the next few years. He may very well have at least a few years left in him that would be as good or better than his last couple of years - especially with Shanahan as coach.

Fournette has great talent, but because of Hyde being a very good running back and the team being in rebuilding mode, I'd be inclined to pass on Fournette as a very early pick in the draft for the 9ers.

Great post for the 1st half of it.

They are just assertions that people make up that Fournette can't play in an ZBS system.

If anything it isn't something coaching cannot sort out.

People (not you) just like to hone in on stuff like stiff hips, can't cut, can't catch and all that nonsense.

For one, he can definitely cut and he can definitely catch, but whether he has the loosest hips of all that I don't know.

The point is people never even try to balance their views. Every single player has strengths and weaknesses.

If stiff hip isn't one of Fournette's strengths, then what else can he do?

Or wait a minute, he has no strengths? Size, power and speed for starters which by the way cannot be taught that no other RB in this draft can come close to matching.

Is very simple, if people want to trash Fournette, just say so, don't just give some blatant unbalanced views cos is getting damn tired.

Originally posted by JMC52:
It's crazy, a year ago if you would have told me we could have a decent shot of drafting fournette and Watson I would have said no way. Of course we would still need to move up to get both but crazy what a year does to draft stock.

And now we have the pick to do it and people take it for granted and talk sh*t about the guy. Is a joke.

Originally posted by FrozeReactionZ:
Dam...127 pages and still counting...lol

When you have this many haters who can't help themselves from talking trash, we could hit 200 pages before the draft. LOL.

Or just fxxk it, let Kyle take Trubisky at 2 and be done with it. LOL.

Originally posted by Rascal:

When you have this many haters who can't help themselves from talking trash, we could hit 200 pages before the draft. LOL.

Gonna be a sad day for you when we pass him up. Zero chance we take him.