RB Leonard Fournette

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Does those 3 touchdowns negate Bush's? Would Thomas take an 80 yard punt to the house? A 46 yard TD reception? Reggie was a bit of a letdown but still a special player. But man Mario Williams sure racked up a bunch of SB's with Shanny during those years.

Not negating just saying they got just as much or if not more out of a UDFA.

Bush had 117 rushing yards and 95 rec yards in that 2009 playoff

Thomas had 143 yards rushing and 111 rec in the same 2009 playoffs.

Mario Williams has nothing to do with anything... but I'll take a 4 time pro-bowler and a all-pro vs what bush has done and I think most would agree.

Bush won his ring because of drew Brees not the other way around.

I'd rather draft Mitch over a RB at two if we had to go offense at two

Originally posted by Rascal:

Just unbelievable.

Still complaining after totally monopolizing all the 1st round picks for 4 consecutive years on defense. LOL

I am just gob-smacked that people can have the audacity to say defense is worse than offense. LOL.

1) That's a really poor use of the word audacity. Sorry to point it out needlessly, it's just my thing.


2) I couldn't care less if we took defense in the last ten drafts, our defense needs help in a draft year that is there to help defense. You don't draft based on which position gets a turn next.

3) Our biggest offensive issues are WR and QB. This is not the draft to go all in on those positions. If there was a QB/WR worthy of the 2 then most of us would be on board. However, there's not and taking Fournette will not improve that at all. There are defensive players who will improve our defense though which is why a lot of us prefer to go D.

Now if we were to fall back to the 10-20 area then I wouldn't rule out offense because that's where they'll be, but LF will be long gone by then.

Originally posted by FrozeReactionZ:

The way some of us see it is...we been having BORING PICKS on defense for last few yrs, which haven't exactly lived up to thier contribution ecpections YET...for the most part, whether it was the flawed scheme or coaching...

This year we have a NEW regime, a head coach which is masterful on offense.....alot of us want a sexy skiled pick, that we can tune in Sunday and watch him be utilized and dominating..We need something to be excited about, I think we deserve it, a Solomon Thomas just isnt going to bring us that joy...SORRY, SAD BUT TRUE

I'm sorry but that is one of the dumbest things a fan can say.

"We deserve it"

What do we deserve? How about a winning team? I could a flying fuk about having a sexy draft pick as long as it improves the team in a big way. Fantasy football has brought in more fans to the sport but it totally spoiled them.

We don't need a flashy sexy pick which may add excitement for homers of the 49ers in fantasy football but on the real games that matter the impact won't be nearly as big as you think.

Solomon Thomas or Malik Hooker can bring in much needed improvement to a defense in bad need of talent. You need talent on defense all over the field or you're going to struggle. You can plug in holes on offense and scheme things open....the one guy you can't do much without tho is QB.

RB is the easiest position to draft and find production in. Give me a player who may not be flashy or do it all on his own but someone who makes plays and helps the guys around him be bettter and improve our defense as a unit. The impact of the RB has changed, winning games with defense has not.

32nd defense in points and yards allowed and these guys want to use #2 to upgrade the one unit that produced for us last year and with Shanahan's track record of getting production out of late round picks. Makes perfect sense...

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Not negating just saying they got just as much or if not more out of a UDFA.

Bush had 117 rushing yards and 95 rec yards in that 2009 playoff

Thomas had 143 yards rushing and 111 rec in the same 2009 playoffs.

Mario Williams has nothing to do with anything... but I'll take a 4 time pro-bowler and a all-pro vs what bush has done and I think most would agree.

Bush won his ring because of drew Brees not the other way around.

One way to look at it. You add Bush to Hou's already explosive offense it could of been the difference. You take away Reggie from NO I bet you they lose 1 of those games obviously that can't be proven though. He does things Thomas can't. Brees was obviously the driving force but at offense that's going to be the case 99 out of 100 times. Is our plan to neglect the qb spot forever? Did we add Shanny to run a bottom 5 offense because I doubt that's what we signed up for.

Originally posted by Rascal:

Just unbelievable.

Still complaining after totally monopolizing all the 1st round picks for 4 consecutive years on defense. LOL.

Plus all of those players are in fact still with the team as opposed to its offensive counterparts whereby the bulk of them have either already left the team or even the NFL entirely.

If you are saying the defense is that bad, fxxk imagine how much worse the offense is?!

The cupboard on the offensive side of the ball is totally barren. Tell me that is BS.

Only 1 trade-up to barely the end of the 1st round player left named Garnett who hasn't done jack. The rest of all the offensive draftees have been totally diabolical.

And even before the last 4 years, all we did was we drafted countless offensive busts like AJ Jenkins, LaMichael James, Colin Kaepernick, etc.

I am just gob-smacked that people can have the audacity to say defense is worse than offense. LOL.

Imagine if I were to flip this around and if it was the defense which hadn't taken a single 1st round pick 4 years in a row, I wonder what you would say then?! LOL.

Be reasonable, dude!!

Is this post real life?

So just because we went with defense in the last 4 first rounds somehow that changes the fact that our defense was horrendous?

Are you legit making a case for our offense being worse than the defense?

Best defensive talent draft in years but we went defense 4 years in a row so now it's time to draft offense no matter what! And you don't just want to draft offense...you want to draft a RB at #2 overall...

Btw Joshua Garnett plays offense. Technically he was our last first round pick..guess it's time to draft defense in the first round and change things up.

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by FrozeReactionZ:

The way some of us see it is...we been having BORING PICKS on defense for last few yrs, which haven't exactly lived up to thier contribution ecpections YET...for the most part, whether it was the flawed scheme or coaching...

This year we have a NEW regime, a head coach which is masterful on offense.....alot of us want a sexy skiled pick, that we can tune in Sunday and watch him be utilized and dominating..We need something to be excited about, I think we deserve it, a Solomon Thomas just isnt going to bring us that joy...SORRY, SAD BUT TRUE

I'm sorry but that is one of the dumbest things a fan can say.

"We deserve it"

What do we deserve? How about a winning team? I could a flying fuk about having a sexy draft pick as long as it improves the team in a big way. Fantasy football has brought in more fans to the sport but it totally spoiled them.

We don't need a flashy sexy pick which may add excitement for homers of the 49ers in fantasy football but on the real games that matter the impact won't be nearly as big as you think.

Solomon Thomas or Malik Hooker can bring in much needed improvement to a defense in bad need of talent. You need talent on defense all over the field or you're going to struggle. You can plug in holes on offense and scheme things open....the one guy you can't do much without tho is QB.

RB is the easiest position to draft and find production in. Give me a player who may not be flashy or do it all on his own but someone who makes plays and helps the guys around him be bettter and improve our defense as a unit. The impact of the RB has changed, winning games with defense has not.

32nd defense in points and yards allowed and these guys want to use #2 to upgrade the one unit that produced for us last year and with Shanahan's track record of getting production out of late round picks. Makes perfect sense...

That type of fan would've loved being a Bills fan in the 70s. The Juice looked awesome running on those terrible teams.

Originally posted by tjd808185:

One way to look at it. You add Bush to Hou's already explosive offense it could of been the difference. You take away Reggie from NO I bet you they lose 1 of those games obviously that can't be proven though. He does things Thomas can't. Brees was obviously the driving force but at offense that's going to be the case 99 out of 100 times. Is our plan to neglect the qb spot forever? Did we add Shanny to run a bottom 5 offense because I doubt that's what we signed up for.

There's playing devils advocate and then there's just arguing for the hell of it.

Reggie Bush is a totally different RB to Fournette and we all know as #2 overall is concerned he was a giant bust given all the expectations. He shouldn't be used to play devils advocate for why we should draft Fournette. He should be used as a cautionary tale as to why he shouldn't.

Originally posted by genus49:
Is this post real life?

So just because we went with defense in the last 4 first rounds somehow that changes the fact that our defense was horrendous?

Are you legit making a case for our offense being worse than the defense?

Best defensive talent draft in years but we went defense 4 years in a row so now it's time to draft offense no matter what! And you don't just want to draft offense...you want to draft a RB at #2 overall...

Btw Joshua Garnett plays offense. Technically he was our last first round pick..guess it's time to draft defense in the first round and change things up.

I think there's a valid point in there in that Buckner doesn't join the league and become JJ Watt overnight. Sometimes you have to be able to anticipate the improvements that you have made opposed to just looking at your rankings and saying we need more, more, more. See Houston. They took Clowney to an already loaded d line, they have the #1 ranked d which they'd have anyways since Clowney been hurt a good amount of that time but suck everywhere else.

Originally posted by genus49:

I'm sorry but that is one of the dumbest things a fan can say.

"We deserve it"

What do we deserve? How about a winning team? I could a flying fuk about having a sexy draft pick as long as it improves the team in a big way. Fantasy football has brought in more fans to the sport but it totally spoiled them.

We don't need a flashy sexy pick which may add excitement for homers of the 49ers in fantasy football but on the real games that matter the impact won't be nearly as big as you think.

Solomon Thomas or Malik Hooker can bring in much needed improvement to a defense in bad need of talent. You need talent on defense all over the field or you're going to struggle. You can plug in holes on offense and scheme things open....the one guy you can't do much without tho is QB.

RB is the easiest position to draft and find production in. Give me a player who may not be flashy or do it all on his own but someone who makes plays and helps the guys around him be bettter and improve our defense as a unit. The impact of the RB has changed, winning games with defense has not.

32nd defense in points and yards allowed and these guys want to use #2 to upgrade the one unit that produced for us last year and with Shanahan's track record of getting production out of late round picks. Makes perfect sense...

You took it out of context. Let me break it down for your better understanding...

When I stated "we deserve it" as fans. I meant a sexy skilled OFFENSIVE player, that will contribute due to the fact we have the right guy (Shanahan) to put him in position now to succeed, (that will be exciting) maximizing the potential and ofcourse that correlating into W's.

People keep saying The Shanahans are known for their late rd selections at the RB position, which thier zbs make them look like HIGH 1st rd selections, but have you ever thought what Shanahan can actually do with a high drafted running back as his toy?

They made Toyota Corrolas look like Ferraris,can you imagine what he can do with an ACTUAL FERRARI?

And NO Todd Gurley was never a Ferrari, and Jeff Fisher and thier OC's were BUMS

The same people here that want Solomon Thomas, I guranteed you wanted Buckner, Armstead...Thomas is not a game changer. period, he would just be another BORING piece to a puzzle.

Originally posted by FrozeReactionZ:
You took it out of context. Let me break it down for your better understanding...

When I stated "we deserve it" as fans. I meant a sexy skilled OFFENSIVE player, that will contribute due to the fact we have the right guy (Shanahan) to put him in position now to succeed, (that will be exciting) maximizing the potential and ofcourse that correlting into W's.

The same people here that want Solomon Thomas, I guranteed you wanted Buckner, Armstead...Thomas is not a game changer. period, he would just be another BORING piece to a puzzle.

Buckner yes, Armstead no. I was hoping he'd develop into a stud but I was very underwhelmed by that pick. I like most people wanted Peters or a trade down.

And I guess we disagree on what sexy is. Thomas IMO has a very high upside. He's still only 21 years old and isn't turning 22 until the end of 2017. The guy jumped big time as a pass rusher this past year after going the extra mile to improve his hands by taking up boxing.

This type of kid wants to be great. He has no injury concerns, he has shown himself to be versatile and he has shown to have rare athletic ability which simply cannot be coached.

If he turns into a 10+ a year sack guy whether outside or inside you damn well better believe that's sexy. I can win fantasy football games with other teams players. I want the players on my team to help us actually win football games vs looking sexy in terms of stats. It's a team spot and guys like Thomas or Hooker make us a better football team.

Fournette may make things exciting on Sundays where we can see how good his stats will be but I'm sorry i don't see any way he gets us more wins unless we improve the team on defense.

I noticed nobody addressed my mention of him having a 2.5 YPC vs Alabama in 3 games. Why is there no concern there? How about the awful vert jump at the combine? Yes he has good speed and at his weight that's very impressive but he doesn't have the lateral movement to really be well rounded IMO. I'd much rather go with someone like Kareem Hunt or Jeremy McNichols later in the draft who are probably better fits for Kyle's system and won't automatically demand top 5 RB salary.

That's one thing you guys keep glazing over as well. Yes top 5 picks don't get paid as much as they used to be but the rookie contracts that high are not cheap. It's one thing when you're paying that type of money to a QB, pass rusher, LT or elite defensive player but a RB? That position simply doesn't make as much so paying a kid before he has a single snap in the NFL top 5 salary is crazy.

And once again I could understand it if he had no questions at all but he may not even be the best player on his own team. How can you possibly rationalize that we should take him at #2 overall given the rest of the issues with our team?

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Originally posted by genus49:
Is this post real life?

So just because we went with defense in the last 4 first rounds somehow that changes the fact that our defense was horrendous?

Are you legit making a case for our offense being worse than the defense?

Best defensive talent draft in years but we went defense 4 years in a row so now it's time to draft offense no matter what! And you don't just want to draft offense...you want to draft a RB at #2 overall...

Btw Joshua Garnett plays offense. Technically he was our last first round pick..guess it's time to draft defense in the first round and change things up.

I think there's a valid point in there in that Buckner doesn't join the league and become JJ Watt overnight. Sometimes you have to be able to anticipate the improvements that you have made opposed to just looking at your rankings and saying we need more, more, more. See Houston. They took Clowney to an already loaded d line, they have the #1 ranked d which they'd have anyways since Clowney been hurt a good amount of that time but suck everywhere else.

Your post reminds me of this.

Not to say that the Texans have the next LT or Reggie White on their hands, but I totally understand the Clowney pick. When you have a guy that can dominate any player in the league one-on-one and add another player that can potentially dominate one-on-one, it makes it virtually impossible to double team. Some coaches can see that. It's the reason the Texans took Clowney. It is the reason the Vikings took Randy Moss, despite already having Cris Carter and Jake Reed, arguably the best starting WR combo at the time.

Adding a player like Thomas helps everyone on the D-line and almost ensures one of those guys will be one-on-one every play. I think with Kyle Shanahan's play calling, and the players we have added in FA (Garcon, Williams) and the players we already have (McDonald, Hyde, Kerley), we will look competent on offense. Not good or great, but competent. Add in a running back later in the draft and we may have something that can be average. Can you say the same for defense, even if everyone is fully healthy? Truth is, in spite of us taking defense in the first round the last 4 years of the draft, I have more confidence in the offense to look competent than the defense to do the same, particularly with Kyle Shanahan calling the plays.

If someone is dead set on taking skill players on offense, a trade down a picking up Williams/Davis and then a trade up to take McCaffrey makes a lot more sense than going with Fournette at 2.

Originally posted by tjd808185:
I think there's a valid point in there in that Buckner doesn't join the league and become JJ Watt overnight. Sometimes you have to be able to anticipate the improvements that you have made opposed to just looking at your rankings and saying we need more, more, more. See Houston. They took Clowney to an already loaded d line, they have the #1 ranked d which they'd have anyways since Clowney been hurt a good amount of that time but suck everywhere else.

I'm honestly confused by your point...who should Houston have drafted instead of Clowney? Bortles? Watkins?

The year they drafted Clowney they were 7th in points allowed and 24th in yards allowed. This past season was the first year they were actually #1 D in points allowed and that was with Watt being injured. I would say if Watt was healthy along with Clowney we don't know what happens vs the Pats or if they even have to play on the road.

Their biggest issue was easily the QB position and nobody here will deny that it starts with that in terms of need and impact. If we take a QB at #2 i don't think anyone can(or should) complain given the HC we have in place. RB at #2 is a totally different story.

I read the claims some have made here that Fournette's running style isn't a particularly good fit for Shanahan's tendency to run more outside zone. I followed a link to a video of an analyst showing a couple of examples of Fournette cutting back into a less favorable crease rather than going outside a good block by his offensive end. And I read these:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/leonard-fournette?id=2557973:
"Doesn't see cutback lanes developing as outside zone runner and prefers to keep runs play-side."

http://www.sportingnews.com/au/nfl/news/nfl-draft-2017-picks-leonard-fournette-scouting-report-lsu-running-back/olrsw77gknj01llkjtovfgpnv:
"Fournette struggles when his initial read isn't available, and he's not quick to adjust laterally. He is not best used on outside zone runs without a top-tier offensive line."

I wanted to see video analysis and citing of written analysis of Fournette's play by advocates that he does well on outside zone runs to assess which "side" provided the most compelling evidence. So I asked those who think that outside zone runs aren't a weakness of his if they could give that evidence. What I've read since asking (nobody directly responded to my questions - which is fine) are only assertions that he is as good at it as inside zone read, no evidence. A lack of evidence doesn't imply that they are wrong but it doesn't do anything to convince someone who isn't already convinced.

So I decided I'd check it out for myself. I researched to I make sure I understood what is involved in outside zone runs and then watched a long video of Fournette's highlights and videos of a couple of games. To my eye it looks like with a little bit of coaching up that Fournette would be nearly as good on outside zone as inside zone. I think Shanahan could make excellent use of him. There is a very good chance Fournette will be a top 3 running back this year. He has tremendous potential.

But in spite of that, I would prefer not to draft him at #2 or even #5. His aggressive running style increases his chances of getting injured and reducing his ability to perform in top form for more than 4 or 5 years. If the 9ers drafted him, I think they could very well get 3 to 5 excellent years (1200 to 1500+ yards per year) out of him, but I think through the first few of those years that the 9ers would be in building mode for significant parts of the team. Fournette could become an ex-blue chip player just as the rest of the team is fully maturing. At #2 I'd rather draft a player that has a good chance of being a blue chipper for 8 to 10 years or more. I think Hyde is a very good running back for a team that will be developing over the next few years. He may very well have at least a few years left in him that would be as good or better than his last couple of years - especially with Shanahan as coach.

Fournette has great talent, but because of Hyde being a very good running back and the team being in rebuilding mode, I'd be inclined to pass on Fournette as a very early pick in the draft for the 9ers.

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
This post reminds me of

Not to say that the Texans have the next LT or Reggie White on their hands, but I totally understand the Clowney pick. When you have a guy that can dominate any player in the league one-on-one and add another player that can potentially dominate one-on-one, it makes it virtually impossible to double team. Some coaches can see that. It's the reason the Texans took Clowney. It is the reason the Vikings took Randy Moss, despite already having Cris Carter and Jake Reed, arguably the best starting WR combo at the time.

Adding a player like Thomas helps everyone on the D-line and almost ensures one of those guys will be one-on-one every play. I think with Kyle Shanahan's play calling, and the players we have added in FA (Garcon, Williams) and the players we already have (McDonald, Hyde, Kerley), we will look competent on offense. Not good or great, but competent. Add in a running back later in the draft and we may have something that can be average. Can you say the same for defense, even if everyone is fully healthy? Truth is, in spite of us taking defense in the first round the last 4 years of the draft, I have more confidence in the offense to look competent than the defense to do the same, particularly with Kyle Shanahan calling the plays.

If someone is dead set on taking skill players on offense, a trade down a picking up Williams/Davis and then a trade up to take McCaffrey makes a lot more sense than going with Fournette at 2.

Moss is a little different because he fell so far. The odds of hitting there is a lot smaller to pass on Moss. I was praying he'd fall to us that year. Overall though I heard those same arguments for Chip last year. He's an offensive genius, the best play caller in the game the o has to improve. It doesn't work that way. Garcon is a moderate improvement over Smith but the rest is camp fodder or a fullback which is the most irrelvant position in the NFL. Shanny's rankings over his career speak for itself here he needs talent. He's only ran offenses working with guys like Julio, Andre minus 1 out of 4 years in Wsh. I'm not saying LF at 2 but this is one of those drafts where we may spend the top 4 picks on d and again watch elite offensive guys slip by.

Originally posted by genus49:

Buckner yes, Armstead no. I was hoping he'd develop into a stud but I was very underwhelmed by that pick. I like most people wanted Peters or a trade down.

And I guess we disagree on what sexy is. Thomas IMO has a very high upside. He's still only 21 years old and isn't turning 22 until the end of 2017. The guy jumped big time as a pass rusher this past year after going the extra mile to improve his hands by taking up boxing.

This type of kid wants to be great. He has no injury concerns, he has shown himself to be versatile and he has shown to have rare athletic ability which simply cannot be coached.

If he turns into a 10+ a year sack guy whether outside or inside you damn well better believe that's sexy. I can win fantasy football games with other teams players. I want the players on my team to help us actually win football games vs looking sexy in terms of stats. It's a team spot and guys like Thomas or Hooker make us a better football team.

Fournette may make things exciting on Sundays where we can see how good his stats will be but I'm sorry i don't see any way he gets us more wins unless we improve the team on defense.

I noticed nobody addressed my mention of him having a 2.5 YPC vs Alabama in 3 games. Why is there no concern there? How about the awful vert jump at the combine? Yes he has good speed and at his weight that's very impressive but he doesn't have the lateral movement to really be well rounded IMO. I'd much rather go with someone like Kareem Hunt or Jeremy McNichols later in the draft who are probably better fits for Kyle's system and won't automatically demand top 5 RB salary.

That's one thing you guys keep glazing over as well. Yes top 5 picks don't get paid as much as they used to be but the rookie contracts that high are not cheap. It's one thing when you're paying that type of money to a QB, pass rusher, LT or elite defensive player but a RB? That position simply doesn't make as much so paying a kid before he has a single snap in the NFL top 5 salary is crazy.

And once again I could understand it if he had no questions at all but he may not even be the best player on his own team. How can you possibly rationalize that we should take him at #2 overall given the rest of the issues with our team?

I get what your saying, I really do but...

1. I want to go offense mainly because of the mastermind running the show now

2. If we go defense a sexy pick indeed is a saftey, Hooker or Adams I wont be mad AT ALL..I perfer Adams by a mile due to his versatility and leadership, and its pretty much unknown up to this point when Hooker will actully be on the field (nursing injury) but thats a diff convo.

3. Before Seattle built that BULLY of a defense, Gore use to gash them VERY BAD all the time, matter fact I use to look foward to us playing Seattle to watch Gore abuse them.

Fast foward to the Carrol hiring, he formed a fierce D over time. Gore's averages were pathetic, and no you cant say it was the Oline because we had some BEEF on that online. And later in the years we had a very good OC in Roman when it came to run designs. AND GORE STILL COULDNT RUN ON SEATTLE! But just because Gore couldnt sniff significant yards against seattle does that mean we have to question his skills as a runner. HELL NO Same thing with Fournette and Alabama bro