amari cooper -- a true nfl #1 wr

I would be pleased if the 49ers traded up in first to get Amari Cooper, or Kevin White.

If we look to the future, (and Baalke seems to draft for the future, not just the current year), we will need a replacement for Boldin.

I do not know if the trade will be made or not, but the possibility is intriguing.

I would think that wide receiver or cornerback stands as our major need.

I have no idea how the coaching staff views the young defensive backs that are already on the team.

I am not sure if any of the "projected first round" defensive backs available in this draft are worth a trade up.



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Originally posted by buck:
I would be pleased if the 49ers traded up in first to get Amari Cooper, or Kevin White.

If we look to the future, (and Baalke seems to draft for the future, not just the current year), we will need a replacement for Boldin.

I do not know if the trade will be made or not, but the possibility is intriguing.

I would think that wide receiver or cornerback stands as our major need.

I have no idea how the coaching staff views the young defensive backs that are already on the team.

I am not sure if any of the "projected first round" defensive backs available in this draft are worth a trade up.



.

Agreed, we do know how Baalke feels about the current WR corp based on him constantly trying to upgrade it in FA. If he was confident in Patton he wouldn't have brought on Smith, Lloyd or SJ.

Originally posted by All22:
Aaron Donald stops the run and the pass with explosive penetration... and well, so does J.J. Watt.
We'd have to make some adjustments in scheme but it can definitely be done.

Edit: Also Zack Martin actually played last year and Thomas didn't so the point still stands.

We aren't a 4-3, and the Rams are. That's why he succeeds there, andwhy he wouldn;t succeed here. Watt would be good anywhere, but he's a freak that is not availiable every year.

I've already addressed Martin vs Thomas, lol.

Originally posted by KRS-1:
You are correct with Donald however Martin was not viewed universally as a 2nd round pick, everyone knew Martin was going in the first round. He was viewed as a day 1 plug and play pick.

There were actually a lot of knocks on Martin's game (length, footspeed, versatility) to go with the plusses (knee bend, good base, smarts). He was projected top 50 by most sources (just like Thomas before the injury), but he was also a projection, as he was a tackle who was moving to a position he had never played before (G). General consensus was that the Cowboys reached BIG to take him in the mid/late first. I hate the term "reach," but I did not expect him to go that early, either.

Originally posted by WRATHman44:

Originally posted by All22:
You're moving goal posts now. If all it took was a 3rd and 4th to get into the top 6 (where White and Cooper will likely go) then I'd have no issue***. However we're talking about a Sammy Watkins-level trade. They gave up a future 1st and a 4th to move from 9 to 4 so there's no way we're moving from 15 to 4/5/6 without giving up a lot more than that.

So, REALISTICALLY, we're talking about something like a 2016 1st, 2015 2nd, and 2015 4th.

*** Actually, if that's all it took to move to 4-6 then I'd say screw Cooper and lets move up to get Leonard Williams.***

JMartin sucking caused against him, Looney, and Boone. Davis coming back and playing at about 70% caused several sacks. MMart coming off of injury with no TC and his inexperience resulted in some sacks. Coaches pushing across what Staley called "dumb schemes" resulted in sacks. Our OL has 2 1st round Ts, Two third round interior lineman, Kilgore (who was doing just fine last year), and Boone. A healthy squad with a better scheme has all the talent we need.

Which is probably true of half the teams in the league.

Thomas would have easily gone in the 2nd round had he not hurt himself leading up to the draft. Starting the year with a healthy Davis, focuused Boone, healthy Kilgore and Thomas, with Staley being Staley, no one taken outside of the 1st round has a chance to crack that lineup.

Like I said, being healthy in April means nothing.

You left out the post I quoted from you where you asserted that the main reason to pass on Cooper would be to secure 2 solid linemen, as well as Strong, Smith, Perriman, Parker, DGB, Dupree, Peters. I am saying that I doubt that any OL/DL taken outside of the 1st would earn significant snaps this year, and I think Smith is likely the only player you listed specifically who could be selected outside of the 1st round. So, I remain doubtful that we have a significant chance to miss out on impact players this year if we trade away our second and 4th.

You're not making any sense:

So you are saying that a second round OL this year has no chance of beating out a projected second round pick from last year who is coming off an ACL injury? That makes no sense.

If you acknowledge that MMartin and Davis coming off injury last year caused them to play worse than normal then why not extend the same possibility to Thomas, who is coming off a much more severe injury?

And why are you assuming that Thomas (or whoever wins the job at guard) will be better than Iupati?

Please remember that Tank was a top 15 talent before his injury, that he was coming on dramatically at the end of last season,

Great, that's one starter out of 3 positions.

and that Dial has been stout against the run, allowing Dockett to focus on the pass rush. Williams and Dorsey have been stout against the run, which is their only responsibility.

Williams, Dorsey, and Dial are all basically the same player in the same way that Boldin, Johnson, Crabtree, and Lloyd were all basically the same type of receiver.

Dockett is old and likely to only be in on passing downs. And all those guys have spent a ton of time injured recently and need to prove they can be counted on physically.

I don;t see Shelton pushing Dockett or Tank to the bench on passing downs, and he's not ready to push Williams/Dorsey to the bench on running downs.

There's pretty much nothing that Williams or Dial do better than Shelton. That's why one went undrafted and the other went in the 5th while Shelton might go in the top 10.

Our DL is still very much a strength. We have significant depth and young talent that needs to see more of the field. Why draft high at the position when we already have significant underused talent? That exact question holds for the OL.

So why doesn't the same logic apply to WR? Let's not forget that we drafted Ellington and Patton recently and paid a ton of money for 26 year old Torrey Smith. Ellington has shown a lot more promise as a WR/KR/PR than Dial or Williams have shown at DE/DT.

And BTW, no DL is not a strength of ours without Justin Smith. In fact, our DL is, BY FAR, the weakest in the division.
Contrast that with our WR group, which is definitely better than Seattle and St. Louis.

I'd like to get Henry Anderson, but he probably wouldn't get many snaps for 1-2 years.

Nor would Cooper.

#3 WR's on our team get very few snaps (See: SJ13, Moss, Lloyd, Edwards, Manningham, Patton, Ellington)

We will not get a starting OL, Starting DL, and Strong/Parker/DGB in this draft. We can get a starting OL, a starting DL OR a starting WR in this draft.

You're missing my point entirely. WE DON'T NEED TO DRAFT A "STARTING WR".
I know that's hard for people in the zone to grasp but the Seahawks haven't been beating us with their WR talent.

Julio Jones, AJ Green, Dez Bryant, Calvin Johnson, D.Thomas, Andre Johnson, Josh Gordon etc have zero Super Bowl rings.

The only "#1 WR" to get a ring in the last few years is Jordy Nelson and I don't even think he's a #1 WR without Aaron Rodgers.

Boldin and/or Smith (who won a ring a couple years ago) are about as much of a #1 WR as Colston, Mike Wallace, Edelman, or Hakeem Nicks, or David Givens or basically anyone else that has won a ring recently.

I know we're all fond of Jerry Rice and TO but in the last 15 or so years, drafting a #1 WR high has not been a recipe for success.

One would think that people would realize that that is the reason the Patriots, Seahawks, and Steelers (arguably the smartest teams in the league) don't draft them.

Hell, having an elite RB corresponds with success much more than having a top WR.

We already have a stock of quality mid round picks on the OL and among the WR. The DL is teeming with young talent. Those picks are talented and well on their way to developing in the NFL. The same level of talent, with less coaching and less time with an NFL strength and conditioning staff, is unlikely to unseat those players.

I'm sorry, who are you referring to specifically? Because that may apply to Tank, Boone, and Thomas but definitely not Looney, Kilgore, Pears, Dial, Williams, TJE, and Dorsey. Any of those guys in the latter group could easily be replaced by our first and second round picks this year.... and maybe our 4th too.

I meant 2nd and 4th (that's why "3nd" had an "n" in it), and I stand by it. You say we need difference makers at DL and OL, yet you also say we can get a 1st round skill player. I continue to dispute that. I don't see a 2nd or 3rd round player who will displace any of our starters on DL or OL. I have tried to explain my points fairly clearly, and at this point I question that you have spent any real time analyzing the play of our OL or DL in any play-by-play sense. I have played and coached OL and DL, both in high school and college, so I have spent a great deal of time learning how to break down film and knowing what to look for. The conclusions you appear to have arived at seem very closely associated with the "common knowledge" that members of the press have been circulating about our team, but those assumptions do not stand up to analysis. Looney was actually playing pretty well, but he had 1-3 really bad plays per game, which tends to happen to the new guy on the line. Some of those plays were caused by the physical ineptness of JMartin. MMartin has been bagged on quite a bit, but he was assignment sound and any deficiencies in his game are easily corectable, as he struggled occasionally with pad level (coming back from ankle injury) and raw physical strength (common rookie OL/DL issue), which has likely already been addressed in an NFL weight room.

Your point about Martin vs Thomas is ridiculous, as Thomas' lack of playing time was due to rehab and the lateness of his injury, not his talent and ability. If you were not aware of this, Thomas' ACL tear was a non-contact injury, meaning that the complications that arise from contact injuries (meniscus tears, bone bruises, strained retinaculum, etc) are not a concern, and his prognosis is positive. Yes, he is at a clear advantage over a rookie because he will have a full offseason with the team, he's been in an NFL weight room for 11 months, NFL meetings for a season and reading an NFL playbook for just as long. In college, he dominated Jadaveon Clowny, which is no small feat. He played LT, yet clearly has the size and technique to play G. Yes, he is clearly better than any OL we could draft in the second round, and he is a better all-around G than Iupati, who has been out biggest liability in pass protection since he was drafted. Iupati would likely also be a liability in the run game if we transition to a ZBS, as expected.

Stating that Williams, Dorsey, and Dial are all basically the same player reveals that you are either unfamiliar with those players on any technical level, or you are simply unfamiliar with technical line play. Dial has significantly greater height and longer levers that the other two, and he plays like it. He locks his arms in the OL chest plate, keeping his body free and dominating at the point. His occasional struggles with pad level were essentially resolved by the end of the season. He is unquestionably a 5 technique who was forced to play the zero because of injuries, and has shown real potential to dominate the LDE position on running downs. Dorsey and Williams are both more suited to our NT position, playing with the natural leerage they gain by being 6'1". Williams is a little heavier, and he wins with stout body position and technique. Dorsey wins with elite agility for his size, and he improved his NT technique as he continued to learn the position. None of them are remotely the same as players. Not even close. I specifically stated in my post that Dockett will likely be relegated to passing downs, and that is a good thing. Dial is a stud at 5 teach against the run.

You seem to really like Shelton. That's great. Explain how we get Shelton and Jalen Strong/DGB?etc? We don't. Returning to your ORIGINAL point, which you've gotten away from lately, that we can get a 1st round skill player and 2 difference makers at OL/DL, Shelton will not be ther in the 2nd, he might not fall to our pick, and there is a lot o uncertainty about him. Draft hype always necessitates that some prospects get bumped up considerably. There isn't a clearly dominant DT after Williams, so dudes get hyped. Shelton is a pretty good athlete for a man his size, but look carefully at his pad level, footwork, and playy against double teams and explain to me how he is NFL ready for a 3-4 (he isn't, and we have no idea how quickly he could learn to be). Our own Glenn Dorsey is a great example of what can happen when you draft a DT really high, with the intention of him doing something he's never been asked to do before. KC took him with the 5th overall pick, then instantly tried to change his responsibilitie and techniques. It didn't take, even though he was a special athlete. Shelton carries the same risk. He can run fast at his size, and he's a big, strong dude, but he's not exactly a technical dynamo, and we don't know if that will change, or how long it would take for him to learn. He could be a stud, but he has very real bust potential (most DTS do). Beyond that, we'd likely have to trade up for him anyway, which would likely cost a day 2 pick.

I like Patton and Ellington a lot, but neither should be #1 WRs for this team. Ellington can abuse over sized defensive backfields in the slot, and QP is crafty, tenacious and deceptively fast, Neither one of them will consistently defeat man coverage whenever we need it, which is really what you depend on a #1 WR for. Saying that Elllington has done more than Dial and Williams is gnorant. Both of those DL have started games, taken extensive reps, and won matchups.

DL is a strength on this team. If you have anything other than falsely confident statements or parroted assumptions by group-thinking media members, please share that analysis. We have two proven starters at NT, a young RDE who was dominant in passing situations and improving swiftly in running situations, a stout LDE, who will rotate out with a disruptive interior pass rusher, and a guy who has filled in successfully at every spot on our DL. That is special depth in the NFL. You might not like the name recognition, o watch them play and only look at the line. This is a very good group. Guys with laptops, press passes, and little football experience might not like the group, but that doesn;t really mean a damn thing.

Cooper has a much clearer path to a starting role on this team in 2016 than any other WR we could draft in the first, or any OL/DL we could draft in the 2nd-4th. A developing QB needs a WR he can depend on to be open and to catch the pass. That's why Kap has been easy to defend against. First, he could only depend on Crab to be open. Crab got hurt, and Boldin was the guy. VD was the big play guy (which is what you said was all we need from our receiving threats), but he doesn't have the technical skill to get open all the time. Boldin wasn't always open, but Kap forced him the ball, because at least he could catch contested balls. Because we rarely put 3 WRs on the field, Kap had poor #2 WR options to throw to (Williams, Moore, old Moss, hurt Crab, old Lloyd), who were neither open nor reliable on contested catches. NE and Pittsburg don't need to depend on that as much because their QBs are developed. Their passing schemes put more guys into routes and scheme guys open, so they are less dependent on individual talent. Seattle doesn't need that because any WR can get open during an 8 second scramble. Different teams have different strengths/weaknesses, so they must employ different strategies. We are not the Seahawks, Patriots, Pckers, or Steelers, and our QB needs help.

Boldin isn't a #1 WR? Okay, dude. LOL, Boldin has spent years putting up great production by physically dominating the catch point. He's not a typical #1 WR, in that he doesn't evade coverage with speed, but he is a WR that you can throw to on almost every play if he's not doubled, and that's a #1. He's been that guy for over a decade, and he's been that guy for 3 separate teams. We don't know how much longer he can be that guy, but it would be foolish to think that our offense would not have been a mess without him the last two years. He won't be around forever, and that production and play-to-play availability (dependability) must be replace, especially as Kap continues to develop.

"Elite RB" made me LOL. I think you should have said "elite rushing offense." I suppose you think DeMarco Murray was an "elite rb," just like Shady McCoy was "elite" a couple years ago. RB success is generally dictated by OL success. Frank Gore was able to squeeze through the smallest of cracks (which is why OL, RBs, and defenders around the league respect him so much), but he still gets owned when the hole isn't there. McCoy is garbage w/o line production. Murray was nothing special before 2015. McFadden has never been special, but he could have monster numbers behind Dallas' OL. He just needs to stay healthy.

As to your last statement, I have addressed that at length, with reference to ACTUAL on-filed performance. You have not. The beat writers thought Looney struggled, but they don't know much/anything about OL play, do they? Those same writers who critiqued Dial at NT loved him at DE in 2013, when he was filling in at his natural position. He's a DE who was forced to play NT, and he's a good DE. I don't think you know what you're talking about, and you've provided absolutley nothing to substantiate your position. Knocking Kilgore, Williams, and Dorsey should embarrass you if you've actually specifically watched them play.

I'd be willing to continue this discourse, if you would be willing to reference actual performance, not unsubstatiated claims devoid of analysis.

Cheers.

Dayyyyyyem!

Honestly, this was one of the best post I have ever read anywhere in the zone. I can concur with WRATH b/c we both analyzed the OL last off season and no doubt, Looney and yes, Martin were the strong side of our OL then. Looney looked like a quality G and also played C very well for us at the end of the season (which, I believe, is his best position). Also, as a result, we were able to see the upside and potential of Dillon Farrell and Ryan Seymour as well as get stoked about the defense with Dial at his natural LDE position and Carradine coming into the mix (healthy). Okoye...TJE...we also analyzed. WRATH has become our resident expert on OL and consequently, DL play as well. We also found that PFF grades re: the OL and DL are about 50% accurate...at best. Therefore I highly recommend you do your own film breakdowns and study. Well done WRATH and I appreciate a quality healthy debate like this from both of you!

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by WRATHman44:

Originally posted by All22:
You're moving goal posts now. If all it took was a 3rd and 4th to get into the top 6 (where White and Cooper will likely go) then I'd have no issue***. However we're talking about a Sammy Watkins-level trade. They gave up a future 1st and a 4th to move from 9 to 4 so there's no way we're moving from 15 to 4/5/6 without giving up a lot more than that.

So, REALISTICALLY, we're talking about something like a 2016 1st, 2015 2nd, and 2015 4th.

*** Actually, if that's all it took to move to 4-6 then I'd say screw Cooper and lets move up to get Leonard Williams.***

JMartin sucking caused against him, Looney, and Boone. Davis coming back and playing at about 70% caused several sacks. MMart coming off of injury with no TC and his inexperience resulted in some sacks. Coaches pushing across what Staley called "dumb schemes" resulted in sacks. Our OL has 2 1st round Ts, Two third round interior lineman, Kilgore (who was doing just fine last year), and Boone. A healthy squad with a better scheme has all the talent we need.

Which is probably true of half the teams in the league.

Thomas would have easily gone in the 2nd round had he not hurt himself leading up to the draft. Starting the year with a healthy Davis, focuused Boone, healthy Kilgore and Thomas, with Staley being Staley, no one taken outside of the 1st round has a chance to crack that lineup.

Like I said, being healthy in April means nothing.

You left out the post I quoted from you where you asserted that the main reason to pass on Cooper would be to secure 2 solid linemen, as well as Strong, Smith, Perriman, Parker, DGB, Dupree, Peters. I am saying that I doubt that any OL/DL taken outside of the 1st would earn significant snaps this year, and I think Smith is likely the only player you listed specifically who could be selected outside of the 1st round. So, I remain doubtful that we have a significant chance to miss out on impact players this year if we trade away our second and 4th.

You're not making any sense:

So you are saying that a second round OL this year has no chance of beating out a projected second round pick from last year who is coming off an ACL injury? That makes no sense.

If you acknowledge that MMartin and Davis coming off injury last year caused them to play worse than normal then why not extend the same possibility to Thomas, who is coming off a much more severe injury?

And why are you assuming that Thomas (or whoever wins the job at guard) will be better than Iupati?

Please remember that Tank was a top 15 talent before his injury, that he was coming on dramatically at the end of last season,

Great, that's one starter out of 3 positions.

and that Dial has been stout against the run, allowing Dockett to focus on the pass rush. Williams and Dorsey have been stout against the run, which is their only responsibility.

Williams, Dorsey, and Dial are all basically the same player in the same way that Boldin, Johnson, Crabtree, and Lloyd were all basically the same type of receiver.

Dockett is old and likely to only be in on passing downs. And all those guys have spent a ton of time injured recently and need to prove they can be counted on physically.

I don;t see Shelton pushing Dockett or Tank to the bench on passing downs, and he's not ready to push Williams/Dorsey to the bench on running downs.

There's pretty much nothing that Williams or Dial do better than Shelton. That's why one went undrafted and the other went in the 5th while Shelton might go in the top 10.

Our DL is still very much a strength. We have significant depth and young talent that needs to see more of the field. Why draft high at the position when we already have significant underused talent? That exact question holds for the OL.

So why doesn't the same logic apply to WR? Let's not forget that we drafted Ellington and Patton recently and paid a ton of money for 26 year old Torrey Smith. Ellington has shown a lot more promise as a WR/KR/PR than Dial or Williams have shown at DE/DT.

And BTW, no DL is not a strength of ours without Justin Smith. In fact, our DL is, BY FAR, the weakest in the division.
Contrast that with our WR group, which is definitely better than Seattle and St. Louis.

I'd like to get Henry Anderson, but he probably wouldn't get many snaps for 1-2 years.

Nor would Cooper.

#3 WR's on our team get very few snaps (See: SJ13, Moss, Lloyd, Edwards, Manningham, Patton, Ellington)

We will not get a starting OL, Starting DL, and Strong/Parker/DGB in this draft. We can get a starting OL, a starting DL OR a starting WR in this draft.

You're missing my point entirely. WE DON'T NEED TO DRAFT A "STARTING WR".
I know that's hard for people in the zone to grasp but the Seahawks haven't been beating us with their WR talent.

Julio Jones, AJ Green, Dez Bryant, Calvin Johnson, D.Thomas, Andre Johnson, Josh Gordon etc have zero Super Bowl rings.

The only "#1 WR" to get a ring in the last few years is Jordy Nelson and I don't even think he's a #1 WR without Aaron Rodgers.

Boldin and/or Smith (who won a ring a couple years ago) are about as much of a #1 WR as Colston, Mike Wallace, Edelman, or Hakeem Nicks, or David Givens or basically anyone else that has won a ring recently.

I know we're all fond of Jerry Rice and TO but in the last 15 or so years, drafting a #1 WR high has not been a recipe for success.

One would think that people would realize that that is the reason the Patriots, Seahawks, and Steelers (arguably the smartest teams in the league) don't draft them.

Hell, having an elite RB corresponds with success much more than having a top WR.

We already have a stock of quality mid round picks on the OL and among the WR. The DL is teeming with young talent. Those picks are talented and well on their way to developing in the NFL. The same level of talent, with less coaching and less time with an NFL strength and conditioning staff, is unlikely to unseat those players.

I'm sorry, who are you referring to specifically? Because that may apply to Tank, Boone, and Thomas but definitely not Looney, Kilgore, Pears, Dial, Williams, TJE, and Dorsey. Any of those guys in the latter group could easily be replaced by our first and second round picks this year.... and maybe our 4th too.

I meant 2nd and 4th (that's why "3nd" had an "n" in it), and I stand by it. You say we need difference makers at DL and OL, yet you also say we can get a 1st round skill player. I continue to dispute that. I don't see a 2nd or 3rd round player who will displace any of our starters on DL or OL. I have tried to explain my points fairly clearly, and at this point I question that you have spent any real time analyzing the play of our OL or DL in any play-by-play sense. I have played and coached OL and DL, both in high school and college, so I have spent a great deal of time learning how to break down film and knowing what to look for. The conclusions you appear to have arived at seem very closely associated with the "common knowledge" that members of the press have been circulating about our team, but those assumptions do not stand up to analysis. Looney was actually playing pretty well, but he had 1-3 really bad plays per game, which tends to happen to the new guy on the line. Some of those plays were caused by the physical ineptness of JMartin. MMartin has been bagged on quite a bit, but he was assignment sound and any deficiencies in his game are easily corectable, as he struggled occasionally with pad level (coming back from ankle injury) and raw physical strength (common rookie OL/DL issue), which has likely already been addressed in an NFL weight room.

Your point about Martin vs Thomas is ridiculous, as Thomas' lack of playing time was due to rehab and the lateness of his injury, not his talent and ability. If you were not aware of this, Thomas' ACL tear was a non-contact injury, meaning that the complications that arise from contact injuries (meniscus tears, bone bruises, strained retinaculum, etc) are not a concern, and his prognosis is positive. Yes, he is at a clear advantage over a rookie because he will have a full offseason with the team, he's been in an NFL weight room for 11 months, NFL meetings for a season and reading an NFL playbook for just as long. In college, he dominated Jadaveon Clowny, which is no small feat. He played LT, yet clearly has the size and technique to play G. Yes, he is clearly better than any OL we could draft in the second round, and he is a better all-around G than Iupati, who has been out biggest liability in pass protection since he was drafted. Iupati would likely also be a liability in the run game if we transition to a ZBS, as expected.

Stating that Williams, Dorsey, and Dial are all basically the same player reveals that you are either unfamiliar with those players on any technical level, or you are simply unfamiliar with technical line play. Dial has significantly greater height and longer levers that the other two, and he plays like it. He locks his arms in the OL chest plate, keeping his body free and dominating at the point. His occasional struggles with pad level were essentially resolved by the end of the season. He is unquestionably a 5 technique who was forced to play the zero because of injuries, and has shown real potential to dominate the LDE position on running downs. Dorsey and Williams are both more suited to our NT position, playing with the natural leerage they gain by being 6'1". Williams is a little heavier, and he wins with stout body position and technique. Dorsey wins with elite agility for his size, and he improved his NT technique as he continued to learn the position. None of them are remotely the same as players. Not even close. I specifically stated in my post that Dockett will likely be relegated to passing downs, and that is a good thing. Dial is a stud at 5 teach against the run.

You seem to really like Shelton. That's great. Explain how we get Shelton and Jalen Strong/DGB?etc? We don't. Returning to your ORIGINAL point, which you've gotten away from lately, that we can get a 1st round skill player and 2 difference makers at OL/DL, Shelton will not be ther in the 2nd, he might not fall to our pick, and there is a lot o uncertainty about him. Draft hype always necessitates that some prospects get bumped up considerably. There isn't a clearly dominant DT after Williams, so dudes get hyped. Shelton is a pretty good athlete for a man his size, but look carefully at his pad level, footwork, and playy against double teams and explain to me how he is NFL ready for a 3-4 (he isn't, and we have no idea how quickly he could learn to be). Our own Glenn Dorsey is a great example of what can happen when you draft a DT really high, with the intention of him doing something he's never been asked to do before. KC took him with the 5th overall pick, then instantly tried to change his responsibilitie and techniques. It didn't take, even though he was a special athlete. Shelton carries the same risk. He can run fast at his size, and he's a big, strong dude, but he's not exactly a technical dynamo, and we don't know if that will change, or how long it would take for him to learn. He could be a stud, but he has very real bust potential (most DTS do). Beyond that, we'd likely have to trade up for him anyway, which would likely cost a day 2 pick.

I like Patton and Ellington a lot, but neither should be #1 WRs for this team. Ellington can abuse over sized defensive backfields in the slot, and QP is crafty, tenacious and deceptively fast, Neither one of them will consistently defeat man coverage whenever we need it, which is really what you depend on a #1 WR for. Saying that Elllington has done more than Dial and Williams is gnorant. Both of those DL have started games, taken extensive reps, and won matchups.

DL is a strength on this team. If you have anything other than falsely confident statements or parroted assumptions by group-thinking media members, please share that analysis. We have two proven starters at NT, a young RDE who was dominant in passing situations and improving swiftly in running situations, a stout LDE, who will rotate out with a disruptive interior pass rusher, and a guy who has filled in successfully at every spot on our DL. That is special depth in the NFL. You might not like the name recognition, o watch them play and only look at the line. This is a very good group. Guys with laptops, press passes, and little football experience might not like the group, but that doesn;t really mean a damn thing.

Cooper has a much clearer path to a starting role on this team in 2016 than any other WR we could draft in the first, or any OL/DL we could draft in the 2nd-4th. A developing QB needs a WR he can depend on to be open and to catch the pass. That's why Kap has been easy to defend against. First, he could only depend on Crab to be open. Crab got hurt, and Boldin was the guy. VD was the big play guy (which is what you said was all we need from our receiving threats), but he doesn't have the technical skill to get open all the time. Boldin wasn't always open, but Kap forced him the ball, because at least he could catch contested balls. Because we rarely put 3 WRs on the field, Kap had poor #2 WR options to throw to (Williams, Moore, old Moss, hurt Crab, old Lloyd), who were neither open nor reliable on contested catches. NE and Pittsburg don't need to depend on that as much because their QBs are developed. Their passing schemes put more guys into routes and scheme guys open, so they are less dependent on individual talent. Seattle doesn't need that because any WR can get open during an 8 second scramble. Different teams have different strengths/weaknesses, so they must employ different strategies. We are not the Seahawks, Patriots, Pckers, or Steelers, and our QB needs help.

Boldin isn't a #1 WR? Okay, dude. LOL, Boldin has spent years putting up great production by physically dominating the catch point. He's not a typical #1 WR, in that he doesn't evade coverage with speed, but he is a WR that you can throw to on almost every play if he's not doubled, and that's a #1. He's been that guy for over a decade, and he's been that guy for 3 separate teams. We don't know how much longer he can be that guy, but it would be foolish to think that our offense would not have been a mess without him the last two years. He won't be around forever, and that production and play-to-play availability (dependability) must be replace, especially as Kap continues to develop.

"Elite RB" made me LOL. I think you should have said "elite rushing offense." I suppose you think DeMarco Murray was an "elite rb," just like Shady McCoy was "elite" a couple years ago. RB success is generally dictated by OL success. Frank Gore was able to squeeze through the smallest of cracks (which is why OL, RBs, and defenders around the league respect him so much), but he still gets owned when the hole isn't there. McCoy is garbage w/o line production. Murray was nothing special before 2015. McFadden has never been special, but he could have monster numbers behind Dallas' OL. He just needs to stay healthy.

As to your last statement, I have addressed that at length, with reference to ACTUAL on-filed performance. You have not. The beat writers thought Looney struggled, but they don't know much/anything about OL play, do they? Those same writers who critiqued Dial at NT loved him at DE in 2013, when he was filling in at his natural position. He's a DE who was forced to play NT, and he's a good DE. I don't think you know what you're talking about, and you've provided absolutley nothing to substantiate your position. Knocking Kilgore, Williams, and Dorsey should embarrass you if you've actually specifically watched them play.

I'd be willing to continue this discourse, if you would be willing to reference actual performance, not unsubstatiated claims devoid of analysis.

Cheers.

Dayyyyyyem!

Honestly, this was one of the best post I have ever read anywhere in the zone. I can concur with WRATH b/c we both analyzed the OL last off season and no doubt, Looney and yes, Martin were the strong side of our OL then. Looney looked like a quality G and also played C very well for us at the end of the season (which, I believe, is his best position). Also, as a result, we were able to see the upside and potential of Dillon Farrell and Ryan Seymour as well as get stoked about the defense with Dial at his natural LDE position and Carradine coming into the mix (healthy). Okoye...TJE...we also analyzed. WRATH has become our resident expert on OL and consequently, DL play as well. We also found that PFF grades re: the OL and DL are about 50% accurate...at best. Therefore I highly recommend you do your own film breakdowns and study. Well done WRATH and I appreciate a quality healthy debate like this from both of you!

Thanks, man. I'm actually really excited about this year. Q doesn't seem like the type of dude that gets pumped up for no reason, and getting everybody back and coached up could make us a VERY surprising team!

Originally posted by buck:
I would be pleased if the 49ers traded up in first to get Amari Cooper, or Kevin White.

If we look to the future, (and Baalke seems to draft for the future, not just the current year), we will need a replacement for Boldin.

I do not know if the trade will be made or not, but the possibility is intriguing.

I would think that wide receiver or cornerback stands as our major need.

I have no idea how the coaching staff views the young defensive backs that are already on the team.

I am not sure if any of the "projected first round" defensive backs available in this draft are worth a trade up.



.

I'm actually pumped about our CB depth chart. Watching Johnson last year, I'd be cool starting him opposite Brock. Acker looked really good against NFL players, and Reaser was a STEAL. I was pumped about him. Great acceleration/speed/change of direction/ball skills. I think he could be a surprise starter and totally blanket a WR. We have a ton of young talent there, some of which is proven. Someone will emerge and ball out from that group, I am sure of it. Put it this way, With how well Johnson played last year, one of the other guys would have to be pretty damn impressive to pass him up on the depth chart. That can't be anything but a good thing.

Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Thanks, man. I'm actually really excited about this year. Q doesn't seem like the type of dude that gets pumped up for no reason, and getting everybody back and coached up could make us a VERY surprising team!

I'm with you on that one!

Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Thanks, man. I'm actually really excited about this year. Q doesn't seem like the type of dude that gets pumped up for no reason, and getting everybody back and coached up could make us a VERY surprising team!

I could be wrong But, I think that Players seem to be out from under some kind of pressure that Harbaugh was either putting on the team or expressing that did not set well with some of the Key players,its like there is a freshness and player are more relaxed and excited.I think that the report that Deion Sanders broke awhile back,seemed to be true about players growing tired of Harbaugh`s Coaching or Mentality....just listen to the comments of the players,I know Staley is glad that He does not have run Dumb Plays ,Dumb Schemes,Dumb Penalties.

"Hall of Fame" Analysis and Read. By #44

I hope you guys don't expect any big trades for cooper. I don't you guys go be too disappointed

Originally posted by gold49digger:
I hope you guys don't expect any big trades for cooper. I don't you guys go be too disappointed

Trading up for Cooper would be maybe the stupidest thing Baalke could do.

Originally posted by NinerSickness:

Originally posted by gold49digger:

I hope you guys don't expect any big trades for cooper. I don't you guys go be too disappointed

Trading up for Cooper would be maybe the stupidest thing Baalke could do.

exaggerate much? You only like Williams as a trade up, I get it. We ALL get it. Most people disagree, and most of us actually present an argument to support our views, whether we prefer Cooper, White, Shelton, Ray, Fowler, Wayne's, etc. Many GMs have said they have 10-15 players with 1st round grades. If we are closer to the 10 player end of that, we should go up and get our guy, IMO.

Originally posted by NinerSickness:
Trading up for Cooper would be maybe the stupidest thing Baalke could do.

And that is the Stupidest Opinion I heard you say ever

You're reading half a sentence of mine then constructing a counter argument. Your counter argument for why Dial/Williams/Dorsey aren't the same player is a perfect example. I said they're the same IN THE SAME WAY THAT BOLDIN/CRABTREE/SJ13/LLOYD ARE THE SAME. Obviously, those 4 guys have significant physical and technical differences but overall they all fit into the category of "possession receiver" the same way Dial/Williams/Dorsey fit into the same category of "run stopper". Your breakdown of their individual skills does not counter that in any way at all. None of them are good pass rushers or backfield disrupters.

Further, I also brought up that I think a lot of opposing QB's had far too much time to throw last season and none of those guys do anything to solve that. In fact, they're all a huge downgrade at DE from Smith and McDonald.

-----

Another example: How do you turn" Boldin is about as much of a #1 WR as Colston, Mike Wallace etc." into "Boldin isn't a #1 WR? Okay, dude. LOL"
Please explain.

---
Your argument about Kap having poor #2 options to throw to conveniently leaves out SJ13. He's young, gets open, is reliable, and makes contested catches. And he's proven that he can do that stuff against the absolute best corners in the league. At 4 mil per year he would have been the perfect Boldin replacement. Yet he got very little playing time and there's no reason to believe Amari Cooper would get any more.
----

You say "DL is a strength on this team." but refuse to address my point about them being the worst DL in the division by a wide margin. Our defensive line (without Cowboy) is in the bottom half of the league right now. And every single player on the DL has suffered a major injury in the last two years.

---
Your point about an "elite RB" is just semantics at best. The same can be said about Amari and the passing game: it's also highly dependent on our offensive line, scheme, and QB. So it's laughable that you think Amari (even if he turns out to be Jordy Nelson) is really all that important in our run-heavy scheme.

-----
Your analysis lacks any type of global perspective and likewise you seem to be having trouble grasping mine.

The real question here is what type of team are you trying to build? Because to me it looks like you're trying to build the Detroit Lions (minus Suh) or Atlanta Falcons (minus Gonzalez) or maybe even the Green Bay Packers.

I'm trying to build a team more like the Seahawks or Panthers (healthy) or Ravens or 2011/2012 49ers. Mindblowingly dominant defense, fantastic run game, big play passing game (with a short game specifically designed for the Seahawks cover 1/cover3).

---
Another bit of wider perspective: The teams in our division are built specifically to stop teams built like you're suggesting. Like I said earlier, teams with those top-10-draft-pick-WR types (AJ Green, Julio Jones, Megatron, Andre Johnson etc) haven't won anything recently. Plus, we don't have the QB for all that. I'm a bigger Kap fan than anyone on this forum but he's not and won't be anytime soon he kind of guy that sits back and picks good teams apart with his pinpoint passing.

---

As to your last statement, I have addressed that at length, with reference to ACTUAL on-filed performance. You have not. The beat writers thought Looney struggled, but they don't know much/anything about OL play, do they? Those same writers who critiqued Dial at NT loved him at DE in 2013, when he was filling in at his natural position. He's a DE who was forced to play NT, and he's a good DE. I don't think you know what you're talking about, and you've provided absolutley nothing to substantiate your position. Knocking Kilgore, Williams, and Dorsey should embarrass you if you've actually specifically watched them play.

And what planet are you living on where Dial played well in 2013? Dial and Williams combined for 31 snaps that year. Check yourself.
http://www.ninersnation.com/2014/1/30/5360370/49ers-snap-count-for-the-2013-season

Originally posted by All22:
You're reading half a sentence of mine then constructing a counter argument. Your counter argument for why Dial/Williams/Dorsey aren't the same player is a perfect example. I said they're the same IN THE SAME WAY THAT BOLDIN/CRABTREE/SJ13/LLOYD ARE THE SAME. Obviously, those 4 guys have significant physical and technical differences but overall they all fit into the category of "possession receiver" the same way Dial/Williams/Dorsey fit into the same category of "run stopper". Your breakdown of their individual skills does not counter that in any way at all. None of them are good pass rushers or backfield disrupters.

Further, I also brought up that I think a lot of opposing QB's had far too much time to throw last season and none of those guys do anything to solve that. In fact, they're all a huge downgrade at DE from Smith and McDonald.

-----

Another example: How do you turn" Boldin is about as much of a #1 WR as Colston, Mike Wallace etc." into "Boldin isn't a #1 WR? Okay, dude. LOL"
Please explain.

---
Your argument about Kap having poor #2 options to throw to conveniently leaves out SJ13. He's young, gets open, is reliable, and makes contested catches. And he's proven that he can do that stuff against the absolute best corners in the league. At 4 mil per year he would have been the perfect Boldin replacement. Yet he got very little playing time and there's no reason to believe Amari Cooper would get any more.
----

You say "DL is a strength on this team." but refuse to address my point about them being the worst DL in the division by a wide margin. Our defensive line (without Cowboy) is in the bottom half of the league right now. And every single player on the DL has suffered a major injury in the last two years.

---
Your point about an "elite RB" is just semantics at best. The same can be said about Amari and the passing game: it's also highly dependent on our offensive line, scheme, and QB. So it's laughable that you think Amari (even if he turns out to be Jordy Nelson) is really all that important in our run-heavy scheme.

-----
Your analysis lacks any type of global perspective and likewise you seem to be having trouble grasping mine.

The real question here is what type of team are you trying to build? Because to me it looks like you're trying to build the Detroit Lions (minus Suh) or Atlanta Falcons (minus Gonzalez) or maybe even the Green Bay Packers.

I'm trying to build a team more like the Seahawks or Panthers (healthy) or Ravens or 2011/2012 49ers. Mindblowingly dominant defense, fantastic run game, big play passing game (with a short game specifically designed for the Seahawks cover 1/cover3).

---
Another bit of wider perspective: The teams in our division are built specifically to stop teams built like you're suggesting. Like I said earlier, teams with those top-10-draft-pick-WR types (AJ Green, Julio Jones, Megatron, Andre Johnson etc) haven't won anything recently. Plus, we don't have the QB for all that. I'm a bigger Kap fan than anyone on this forum but he's not and won't be anytime soon he kind of guy that sits back and picks good teams apart with his pinpoint passing.

---

As to your last statement, I have addressed that at length, with reference to ACTUAL on-filed performance. You have not. The beat writers thought Looney struggled, but they don't know much/anything about OL play, do they? Those same writers who critiqued Dial at NT loved him at DE in 2013, when he was filling in at his natural position. He's a DE who was forced to play NT, and he's a good DE. I don't think you know what you're talking about, and you've provided absolutley nothing to substantiate your position. Knocking Kilgore, Williams, and Dorsey should embarrass you if you've actually specifically watched them play.

And what planet are you living on where Dial played well in 2013? Dial and Williams combined for 31 snaps that year. Check yourself.
http://www.ninersnation.com/2014/1/30/5360370/49ers-snap-count-for-the-2013-season

Your posts are rude, obnoxious, and obtuse, so this will likely be my last reply to you:

YOU HAVE TO WATCH THEM PLAY. Dial played well in the snaps he got in rotation in 2013. Watch the snaps. Williams and Dorsey are only on the field on running downs because their job is to stop the run. They do so difeently which forces teams to scout them differently, prepeare for them differently, and play them differently, so they are not the same, and the differences do matter. They have very little effect on the pass defense as well, since they are of the field on passing downs, as any drafted NT would likely be. We push out DEs into the DT positions in our nickle defense. Tank had 3 sacks in the last 3 games (2 against Seattle). Docket will be the other pimary internal pass rusher, and that dude is disruptive, and he will be >12 months removed from his injury before the season starts. On top of that, since Dial will likely be taking the vast majority of the running downs, Dockett will be rested and amped when he comes in on nickle defense.

The teams in our league are built to stop the run and downfield, sideline passing plays, and they (especially seattle) struggle with lateral moving, change of direction, intermediate routes, which Cooper excells at. The only reason those teams struggled against the run was because of injury (more on that later). Cooper and Ellington could give defenses in our division fits. There is obviously no one way to win in this league. The Seahawks, Patriots, Giants, and Ravens have very different rosters and philosophies, and they won the last four super bowls. Our offense has depended disproportianately on one WR, and we need to be ready for a future without Boldin, and that guy should be pretty special to replace Boldin. Colston and Mike Wallace are not the cornerstones of their teams respective passing games. Their teams are built on spreading the ball around (Pittsburg was where Wallace was successful. Ben throws to whoever gets open. Wallace has disapponted when asked to be the guy). SJ should have played more, and it is inexcusable that the coaches kept him off the field in favor of an under-performing Crabtree. That's their fault, and they are gone.

I obviously disagree with your assessment of our DL in comparison to the DLs in our division. Seattle has Bennett, Avril (I find Avril overrated), Mebane, and a bunch of trash. Mebane is old and less dominant; Bennet is very good. They have no depth to speak of, having squandered their depth to give huge contracts to a few stars. That's why their run defense took a beating when Mebane went down. Arizona is a joke. Campbell is special, Ta'amu and Peters are serviceable. Their run defense was porous last year without Washington cleaning up after them. Dan WIlliams and Alan Branch used to do a decent job tying up OL to allow the LBs and Campbell to wreck shop, but those guys are long gone, and the depth is a mess. Woodley should help their pass rush. St. Louis is very good (better than ours), but their edge rushers are not better than ours, it's just that ours are OLBs and theirs are DEs. Their LBs are not special, and we count on ous as a significant investment to dominate the front 7. (different strategy because of a different scheme).

I don't see how you can claim to be a Kap fan without recognizing how important it is to his success to have a WR he can depend on when everything else sucks. He has had a guy he has depended on and funnelled passes too when he gets in trouble every year he has started, and the current guy will be 25 this year. If you know your QB, you have to see the potential for real problems if Boldin leaves without a suitably capable replacement. I like Patton and Ellington, but they are role players, not leading men. Crab was our most talented WR, and he proved that he wasn't up to the task in 2012, before all of the injuries (didn't get it done in 3 tries in the SB).

So anyway, agree to disagree. I have presented more specific explanation of several points which you will probably choose not to recognize, and I am tired of this back and forth. I am probably not the only poster who doesn't have much patience for your tone of discourse, so I hope you figure things out before you wind up typing posts to yourself. It doesn't seem like your style has proven very effective at persuading other posters to see things your way, so maybe it's something to think about.