MadDog's Niners Draft Grade and Analysis for 2012 NFL Draft

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Hard to develop when you're playing on poorly put together team. If Kap was playing with 12's squad I'd be willing to bet he'd have a much better career.

okay...so the HC who's suppose to be good at developing QBs gets a pass because Kap didn't have a bunch of pro bowl WRs? Dude lacked pocket awareness, wasn't able to go through reads on the regular, couldn't throw with anticipation or touch etc...the team with 17 pro bowl selections in two yrs but yeah that s**tty talent around him was horrible for his development. Stop.

Harbs is thought of in here as the guy who developed Smith into a good QB, he had the same damn core of players (possibly less). So either Kap wasn't all that great (Harbs golden child), Jim couldn't develop him, or the horrible roster around him made him bad lol.

Originally posted by Wu-5Rings:

Nah,

I just think he got best out of them under the awkward circumstances that unfortunately played out? There was no more juice to squeeze out of those lemons. The time came to add some youth, replenish and we failed. Imho

All the talent in the world and no SB...damn shame.

There is already one thread that has been sidetracked into yet another Smith vs Kaepernick. This one isn't going the same way. On subject please.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

All the talent in the world and no SB...damn shame.

Agree to disagree. 🤙🏽

"The 2012 draft that yielded a bounty of key players for the rival Seattle Seahawks — quarterback Russell Wilson (third round), linebacker Bobby Wagner (second) and defensive end Bruce Irvin (first) — could haunt the 49ers for years."

Originally posted by Wu-5Rings:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

All the talent in the world and no SB...damn shame.

Agree to disagree. 🤙🏽

All good...I'll take a team that was pumping out pro-browlers like that for a couple yrs

Fun fact from 2005-2014 SF had the 2nd most pro-bowlers in the league 😁

https://247sports.com/nfl/dallas-cowboys/Board/103087/Contents/Team-with-the-most-Pro-Bowlers-of-the-last-10-years-71154349/

Originally posted by NYniner85:

All good...I'll take a team that was pumping out pro-browlers like that for a couple yrs

Fun fact from 2005-2014 SF had the 2nd most pro-bowlers in the league 😁

https://247sports.com/nfl/dallas-cowboys/Board/103087/Contents/Team-with-the-most-Pro-Bowlers-of-the-last-10-years-71154349/

"The 2012 draft that yielded a bounty of key players for the rival Seattle Seahawks — quarterback Russell Wilson (third round), linebacker Bobby Wagner (second) and defensive end Bruce Irvin (first) — could haunt the 49ers for years."


It's no excuse for a gm not to help his coach or any of his coaches for that matter lol. Baalk excuses if you ask me. Injuries, exodus and underperforming plays a role NY that doesn't tell the whole story. You still need a bench...

Agree to disagree 🤙🏽

Originally posted by NYniner85:

okay...so the HC who's suppose to be good at developing QBs gets a pass because Kap didn't have a bunch of pro bowl WRs? Dude lacked pocket awareness, wasn't able to go through reads on the regular, couldn't throw with anticipation or touch etc...the team with 17 pro bowl selections in two yrs but yeah that s**tty talent around him was horrible for his development. Stop.

Harbs is thought of in here as the guy who developed Smith into a good QB, he had the same damn core of players (possibly less). So either Kap wasn't all that great (Harbs golden child), Jim couldn't develop him, or the horrible roster around him made him bad lol.

We also won with those Pro Bowlers making deep runs 2 out of 3 seasons Kap was with him. They fell a few plays short in the end. It's not like Kap was losing and completely flopping.

I've already said we had the talent to win 1 but if you're talking passing attack that's a different argunent. Pro Bowlers on d does not get you a passing attack and good qb play. How many reports do you see of guys getting open in 13, 14 in those years Kap was struggling? He was working with a poorly put together receiving core.

I lean towards the 2nd and 3rd options. Which yeah with bad personnel it's hard to develop.

Originally posted by Wu-5Rings:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
All good...I'll take a team that was pumping out pro-browlers like that for a couple yrs

Fun fact from 2005-2014 SF had the 2nd most pro-bowlers in the league 😁

https://247sports.com/nfl/dallas-cowboys/Board/103087/Contents/Team-with-the-most-Pro-Bowlers-of-the-last-10-years-71154349/

"The 2012 draft that yielded a bounty of key players for the rival Seattle Seahawks — quarterback Russell Wilson (third round), linebacker Bobby Wagner (second) and defensive end Bruce Irvin (first) — could haunt the 49ers for years."


It's no excuse for a gm not to help his coach or any of his coaches for that matter lol. Baalk excuses if you ask me. Injuries, exodus and underperforming plays a role NY that doesn't tell the whole story. You still need a bench...

Agree to disagree 🤙🏽

yes and how well have those 5 past drafts gone for Seattle ????? Jim walked into a team that was already full of starters. quality vets. Seattle drafted them when Pete got there. Regardless both teams had stud rosters.

If Jim can't get it done with 8 pro-bowl sections one yr and 9 the next, He's not gonna win it all end of the day. Blame a lost SB on not having good backup players when no one of real value was hurt if anything Baalke's s**t draft hurt Tomsula and Kelly more than Jim.

yup agree to disagree.

Originally posted by tjd808185:
We also won with those Pro Bowlers making deep runs 2 out of 3 seasons Kap was with him. They fell a few plays short in the end. It's not like Kap was losing and completely flopping.

I've already said we had the talent to win 1 but if you're talking passing attack that's a different argunent. Pro Bowlers on d does not get you a passing attack and good qb play. How many reports do you see of guys getting open in 13, 14 in those years Kap was struggling? He was working with a poorly put together receiving core.

I lean towards the 2nd and 3rd options. Which yeah with bad personnel it's hard to develop.

Pro Bowlers on defense get's you more freedom on offense to do what you want. opens up that big ol' Harbough playbook lol.

Teams played zone vs Kap because they knew he couldn't throw with anticipation or throw guys open. In 2014 we had Lloyd (who's last season in NFL had 900 yards), Stevie Johnson (multiple 1K seasons) Boldin, and Crabtree...throw in VD as well.

Who the heck did Jimmy G have last yr to throw to? Good QBs and good schemes create opportunities for skilled players, even ones that aren't true WR 1s.

Jim either didn't develop Kap correctly OR the guy he hand picked to be our FQB wasn't really that great.

There reason we're even talking about the passing game is because someone else said Jim didn't have his speedy WR to make his offense run lol. It's always excuses for him and never his fault for something.

man up people admit Harbs wasn't the greatest HC of all time lol. He had his 4 yrs here, did some good. He also played a part in why we didn't win that SB and why he got the boot. Dude can't work with others and IMO his offenses are supbar. I was more pissed that they replaced him with a NFL European HC who farts at press conferences and then went after a RPO college spread HC

I think Jed finally got it right with who's here. arrow up for once!

Originally posted by NYniner85:

yes and how well have those 5 past drafts gone for Seattle ????? Jim walked into a team that was already full of starters. quality vets. Seattle drafted them when Pete got there. Regardless both teams had stud rosters.

If Jim can't get it done with 8 pro-bowl sections one yr and 9 the next, He's not gonna win it all end of the day. Blame a lost SB on not having good backup players when no one of real value was hurt if anything Baalke's s**t draft hurt Tomsula and Kelly more than Jim.

yup agree to disagree.

"Harbaugh has invested a lot of time, effort and money into this program in his three years so far as the head coach. From overseas trips to satellite camps to crazy recruiting tactics, he has went to the end of the world for the university and the football team. He recruits kids that want to succeed both on the field and in the classroom — something not every head coach does."

"ESPN NFL Insider Dan Graziano published a story Thursday predicting 25 things that will happen in the NFL by 2021."

Something our GM had a hard time doing, You cannot tell me 2012 and 2013 did not affect Jim Harbaugh and there was arguing about personnel.. Lol now Baalke drafts had no affect on his tenure there?

What did the other coaches do with all that talent you speak of?

The niners should have made Trent head coach and Gm then if they love him so much and think he did so great despite not having one coach he can be proud of and say they worked well. Yet I'm supposed to believe otherwise.. lol

Baalke should learn some pointers, how to recruit and draft..

One guy is successful everywhere.

The other guy is successful nowhere.
Success is no coincidence.... Never has been..

Originally posted by Wu-5Rings:
Agree to disagree. 🤙🏽

"The 2012 draft that yielded a bounty of key players for the rival Seattle Seahawks — quarterback Russell Wilson (third round), linebacker Bobby Wagner (second) and defensive end Bruce Irvin (first) — could haunt the 49ers for years."

Too bad those two guys are gonna be the only ones left of their great core in a year.

Originally posted by tjd808185:
We also won with those Pro Bowlers making deep runs 2 out of 3 seasons Kap was with him. They fell a few plays short in the end. It's not like Kap was losing and completely flopping.

I've already said we had the talent to win 1 but if you're talking passing attack that's a different argunent. Pro Bowlers on d does not get you a passing attack and good qb play. How many reports do you see of guys getting open in 13, 14 in those years Kap was struggling? He was working with a poorly put together receiving core.

I lean towards the 2nd and 3rd options. Which yeah with bad personnel it's hard to develop.

Pats won with Edelman Hogan and Amendola.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by Wu-5Rings:

Agree to disagree. 🤙🏽

"The 2012 draft that yielded a bounty of key players for the rival Seattle Seahawks — quarterback Russell Wilson (third round), linebacker Bobby Wagner (second) and defensive end Bruce Irvin (first) — could haunt the 49ers for years."

Too bad those two guys are gonna be the only ones left of their great core in a year.

They still got a ring with that core of 2012 draft picks, Schneider out drafted our teflon don in 2012.. Acl fixations.

Once Scott left dude was lost in the wilderness. You cannot draft for future when the time is now...

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Giedi:
As to Harbaugh's offense. His style of a power run offense with the long ball has won many super bowls. 3 with Al Davis and 2 with Joe Gibbs and 4 with Chuck Noll. The only Neanderthal thing about it is that it's a run first offense that features a power running game. Otherwise, the passing side is as sophisticated as the WCO is (for a long ball offense) it still relies on timing and anticipation just like the WCO. But it needs speed at the WR positions to make it work. Baalke never gave that to Harbaugh.

If you look at the 1973 and 1974 Steelers, you can see great defenses, but until they added speed - that offense didn't take them deep into the playoffs. Add in John Stallworth and Lynn Swan and that offense took off and super bowls started appearing in their cupboards.

Stallworth, blessed with great leaping ability and excellent speed, was the 82nd player taken that year. After a rookie year as an understudy, he became a starter in his second season and held that job for the rest of his 165-game career. .https://www.google.com/search?biw=1920&bih=963&ei=FfVPW9c30di1BbXmjsAK&q=speed+of+john+stallworth%3F&oq=speed+of+john+stallworth%3F&gs_l=psy-ab.3...24607.29369.0.29892.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.TborGxwsrH8

So Rooney arranged to time Swann on the West Coast. Swann ran a 4.55. That was good enough for Noll. http://old.post-gazette.com/steelers/20010420nfldraft2.asp

To understand the Raiders' obsession with speed, you have to go back to early 1964. That's when Davis started collecting fast players in addition to wide receivers to attack defenses. His tight end at the time, Ken Herock, was mostly a blocker. Davis acquired former Heisman Trophy-winning running back Billy Cannon after Cannon spent three years with the Houston Oilers. In 1961, he led the AFL in rushing. But Davis converted him to a receiving tight end.
"I knew he wanted to replace me with Billy because Billy could really run," Herock said.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2036826-speed-was-the-all-consuming-obsession-of-al-davis-raiders

Once idiot Baalke got rid of the speed on Harbaugh's offense, and never replaced it, Harbaugh's offense was doomed.

As to the Draft. After the disastrous 2012 draft, the personal relationship between Harbaugh and Baalke deteriorated. However, the *role* of a GM is not to coach the team, that's the HC's job. The *role* of a GM is to support the HC, and Baalke did a piss poor job of it. If you talk about drafts - Baalke was not responsible for the 2011 draft (which was largely on McDrunk) in terms of the effort provided. Baalke's drafts after 2011 stank - and one of the reasons is that he wasn't communicating well with Harbaugh and Harbaugh's coaching staff. The role of a GM is to support his HC, not back stab his coach. After the 2012 draft, Harbaugh knew he had a chicken s**t GM and he couldn't do a dang thing about it because under the terms Jed, Harbaugh, and Baalke agreed to, is that Harbaugh is the coach and Baalke is the GM, that's probably one reason he never signed an extension. So the final responsibility for any draft during Baalke's tenure is his, not Harbaughs. Jimmy Ward and Tank were drafted *after* Baalke and Jim's relationship pretty much deteriorated to where they weren't communicating and hence the bad drafts after 2011.

As for College vs NFL, its *easier* to get talent in the NFL vs College in this sense, you either draft them or sign them. Having said that, again talent acquisition is the responsibility of the GM not the Head Coach under the Haarbalke Regime. How many undrafted players make the NFL every year - a good bunch of 'em I think. As for Harbaugh, Pete Carroll, and Ditka, my point was that rah rah works if the HC is in *charge* of the team vs having a backstabbing GM tank your coaching career. I think Harbaugh did a pretty good job of winning despite a crap GM and a clueless Owner *helping* him. Again, I go back to how Harbaugh improved the offense when he got to the 49ers and how the offense tanked when he left. I think (and again, I agree it's sheer speculation) if he's given the total reins of an NFL club, he probably could do as well as Kyle has done so far. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm totally ecstatic that Kyle is our Coach and I wouldn't trade him for Harbaugh, but I still think Harbaugh got screwed by the owner and the GM. I just think if Harbaugh had *his* GM and *his* guys, I think he'd have no problems communicating with them - and just look at how Ditka and Al Davis did with the Raiders and Bears with both of *their* personalities. They did just fine, because they had total control.

Listen....I'm not trying to support Baalke in any shape or forum he f**ked up, I've stated this over and over. You And Wu are acting like Harbs did nothing wrong and he brought the bad news bears to the Super Bowl which is straight nonsense.

You bring up 3 teams from the 70s and 80s as to why his scheme isn't old school lol? He talked about bringing back the WCO when hired and didn't, his stubborn ass refused to change s**t around when it needed to, no in game adjustments etc...

What are you talking about "Baalke wasn't responsible for the 2011 draft"? Scott was fired over a yr prior to the 2011 draft...it was Baalke's 2nd draft as the GM. I can give you 2010 but not 2011 sir.

As to there being not deep speed I don't believe that, Ginn was one of the fastest players in the NFL, Davis was one of the fastest TEs in the league, Moss was one of the all-time greats at the deep ball (both Ginn and Moss were underutilized IMO). If Harbs was so frustrated about not having a deep threat, why did he help bring in Boldin? You damn well know he talked to his brother about trading for him.

Is Michigan chalk full of speed or is full of big monsters looking to knock the s**t out of you with ground and pound along with a stud defense...much like SF was?

If you truly think Baalke was trying to back stab Harbs and make him lose that's fine, imo I think he wanted to win just as much. Who's got a bigger track record as someone who's hard to work with? Jim has the reputation everywhere he's been. Rah rah s**t only works as long as you're winning every yr in the NFL...these are grown ass men screaming "who's got it better than us" for god sake, that s**t gets old. Even players who played under Jim have stated that.

When Staley says Kyle is the smartest HC and has created a great locker room that means something...dude never said that about Jim.

Again I don't hate Jim think he's a solid coach. He's shtick is perfect for college ball. His personality is prefect for recruiting 18 yr old men. I wish him well and maybe if they had a better GM he'd still be here...I'm not gonna say Jim did no wrong while in SF there was plenty he messed up on as well.

Speed: My point is we made it to the super bowl because not only did we have defense (drafted Aldon when both men were still in the honeymoon stage in their relationship, as well as *speed* with Gin and Moss and others) Once we lost it, we never made another super bowl appearance. The first pick in the 2012 draft was supposed to be a speed reciever - which Baalke screwed up. Just look at Jenkin's draft profile and his major asset was *speed.* Again, the only difference between the Sid Gillman/Al Davis offense and the WCO is two things Walsh did. 1. he turned the vertical offense into a horizontal offense 2. he replaced the fullback and made him a reciever on third and short, instead of a ground and pound 3 yards and a cloud of dust offense. *Both* the Al Davis/Air Coryell/Knoll offenses *and* the WCO still rely on timing and anticipation based on the QB's footwork and the WR cuts to get open. So, again the only difference between the Walsh offense and the Al Davis offense is the emphaisis on the run game. Both offenses still have a sophisticated passing attack, nowhere near the neanderthal level that you point it out to be. Neanderthal offense isn't going to get you past Green Bay's or New Orlean's fast break playoff offense in my opinion.

Wikipedia: Gillman's influence on the modern game can be seen by listing the current and former coaches and executives who either played with him or coached for him:
Al LoCasale, an Oakland Raiders executiveAl Davis, former owner of the Los Angeles/Oakland RaidersChuck Noll, coached the Pittsburgh Steelers to four Super Bowl titlesAra Parseghian, former coach at the University of Notre Dame who led the Fighting Irish to two national titlesBo Schembechler, former coach at the University of Michigan.

Walsh, until then a defensive strategist (he had written his master's thesis at San Jose State on stopping the pro-spread offense), has called Davis "a truly great football coach," especially as an exponent of the passing game. "The Raiders had everybody catching the ball," says Walsh. Davis had worked for Sid Gillman at San Diego, and Walsh regards Gillman as one of the two coaches who brought intelligent passing to pro football.
https://www.si.com/vault/1982/07/26/624667/to-baffle-and-amaze

Draft. 2011 was a good draft, and I suspect it was because Baalke and Harbaugh were in their honey moon stage *and* still had McDrunk's evaluations of that class done the year before. In 2012, Baalke ran the 2012 draft with most, if not all of McDrunk's people as far as I know but that draft was clearly on Baalke. That draft class of 2012 affected the end of the season - if we had a legitimate deep threat that could produce, in my opinion, that would have made a big difference in the playoffs and in the Super bowl. Baalke boched that and pretty much every draft he's been involved in, and you agree. Once the honeymoon stage was over, they lost that trust and each tried to protect themselves at the cost of the other - their relationship deteriorated and so did their draft prowess. Ideally, it should have worked to where it is now with ShanaLynch - Kyle drafts offense and Lynch handles defense. Again, Harbaugh wasn't in charge of the 90 man roster and when Baalke couldn't replace the outside speed, Harbaugh's offense suffered. Baalke's greates error was thinking he *ran* things and was in charge because he hired Harbaugh. It should have been the other way around. HC should be the prime authority as to where to draft and his vision of his offense should rule. The GM's role is to support the HC. Baalke's inability to submit to Harbaugh's authority is probably one of his greatest flaws.

I have 3 examples of where a rah rah and someone with a type A personality has *won* in the NFL. Saying that his college *shtick* doesn't work in the NFL doesn't cut it in my opinion when you have Ditka, Al Davis, and Pete Caroll as examples of where those things *can* work if it's in the right structure.

Originally posted by Giedi:
Speed: My point is we made it to the super bowl because not only did we have defense (drafted Aldon when both men were still in the honeymoon stage in their relationship, as well as *speed* with Gin and Moss and others) Once we lost it, we never made another super bowl appearance. The first pick in the 2012 draft was supposed to be a speed reciever - which Baalke screwed up. Just look at Jenkin's draft profile and his major asset was *speed.* Again, the only difference between the Sid Gillman/Al Davis offense and the WCO is two things Walsh did. 1. he turned the vertical offense into a horizontal offense 2. he replaced the fullback and made him a reciever on third and short, instead of a ground and pound 3 yards and a cloud of dust offense. *Both* the Al Davis/Air Coryell/Knoll offenses *and* the WCO still rely on timing and anticipation based on the QB's footwork and the WR cuts to get open. So, again the only difference between the Walsh offense and the Al Davis offense is the emphaisis on the run game. Both offenses still have a sophisticated passing attack, nowhere near the neanderthal level that you point it out to be. Neanderthal offense isn't going to get you past Green Bay's or New Orlean's fast break playoff offense in my opinion.

Wikipedia: Gillman's influence on the modern game can be seen by listing the current and former coaches and executives who either played with him or coached for him:
Al LoCasale, an Oakland Raiders executiveAl Davis, former owner of the Los Angeles/Oakland RaidersChuck Noll, coached the Pittsburgh Steelers to four Super Bowl titlesAra Parseghian, former coach at the University of Notre Dame who led the Fighting Irish to two national titlesBo Schembechler, former coach at the University of Michigan.

Walsh, until then a defensive strategist (he had written his master's thesis at San Jose State on stopping the pro-spread offense), has called Davis "a truly great football coach," especially as an exponent of the passing game. "The Raiders had everybody catching the ball," says Walsh. Davis had worked for Sid Gillman at San Diego, and Walsh regards Gillman as one of the two coaches who brought intelligent passing to pro football.
https://www.si.com/vault/1982/07/26/624667/to-baffle-and-amaze

Draft. 2011 was a good draft, and I suspect it was because Baalke and Harbaugh were in their honey moon stage *and* still had McDrunk's evaluations of that class done the year before. In 2012, Baalke ran the 2012 draft with most, if not all of McDrunk's people as far as I know but that draft was clearly on Baalke. That draft class of 2012 affected the end of the season - if we had a legitimate deep threat that could produce, in my opinion, that would have made a big difference in the playoffs and in the Super bowl. Baalke boched that and pretty much every draft he's been involved in, and you agree. Once the honeymoon stage was over, they lost that trust and each tried to protect themselves at the cost of the other - their relationship deteriorated and so did their draft prowess. Ideally, it should have worked to where it is now with ShanaLynch - Kyle drafts offense and Lynch handles defense. Again, Harbaugh wasn't in charge of the 90 man roster and when Baalke couldn't replace the outside speed, Harbaugh's offense suffered. Baalke's greates error was thinking he *ran* things and was in charge because he hired Harbaugh. It should have been the other way around. HC should be the prime authority as to where to draft and his vision of his offense should rule. The GM's role is to support the HC. Baalke's inability to submit to Harbaugh's authority is probably one of his greatest flaws.

I have 3 examples of where a rah rah and someone with a type A personality has *won* in the NFL. Saying that his college *shtick* doesn't work in the NFL doesn't cut it in my opinion when you have Ditka, Al Davis, and Pete Caroll as examples of where those things *can* work if it's in the right structure.

Ted Ginn was and is a legit deep threat WR who could produce. They chose not to use him. They also chose not to use Randy Moss in the playoffs. No way you can pin that SB loss on not having enough speed.