Alex Smith in Free Agency

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by cwilson830:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by Wodwo:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:


Barry Sanders is the all time leader in runs for negative yardage. Was he a first ballot hall of famer? Pleanty of players take plays off, end of argument.

Are you seriously suggesting that Barry Sanders was taking plays off?

No. I didn't suggest that at all. Maybe you should read the post history.

Never mentioned TOs drops but did state that he played hard. His problem was that he was disruptive to the team, denigrated QBs and other team mates. So comparing him to Barry Sanders is a poor choice. Sanders quit at the height of his game because he was tired of the teams mismanagement. His choice and I would never criticize someone for stepping away from the game...it's his body. He did not lay down behind the line to keep from being hit, he was hit behind the line.

Moss, on the other hand, admitted he took plays off when he wasn't the first option...that is very unprofessional.

Your arguement seems to be a bit incoherent. Did you not say that all players take plays off and it is fine for them to do so? And how does that relate to a RB being hit for a loss?

I can't believe that you still claim that I am the confused one here.

I stated that many players take plays off. Good ones and bad ones. This is a reality.

I stated that TOs drops will not keep him out of the hall of fame any more than Barry Sanders negative runs kept him out.

This couldn't be more straight forward

Good players don't take plays off.

Maybe in your boyhood fantasy NFL. How about Randy Moss? How about nearly every defensive lineman in the NFL?

OK...TO dropping balls is not "taking plays off," it can be hands or mental letdown, but he ran his routes well. Moss is a better example of what you are talking about but he has been villified by press and players for his attitude of taking plays off. He is not celebrated for taking plays off. It is abnormal behavior, which you evidently think is normal and acceptible.

The thing is I never related TOs drops to taking plays off. I was relating his drops to his production and stating that his drops would not keep him out of the hall of fame because someone else stated as much.

Originally posted by RichmondPete:
You actually think every good player thats played in the NFL is going all out on every snap?

I think the idea is that they should go all out every snap.... not do they really.

All of this is hard to measure, but it's more about genuine talent vs level of effort. A coach will put up with a more established and talented player that takes 5% of snaps with less energy. An unproven and up-n-coming player that takes those 5% of snaps with less energy will likely not be given the same leniency.

Originally posted by cwilson830:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by cwilson830:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by Wodwo:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:


Barry Sanders is the all time leader in runs for negative yardage. Was he a first ballot hall of famer? Pleanty of players take plays off, end of argument.

Are you seriously suggesting that Barry Sanders was taking plays off?

No. I didn't suggest that at all. Maybe you should read the post history.

Never mentioned TOs drops but did state that he played hard. His problem was that he was disruptive to the team, denigrated QBs and other team mates. So comparing him to Barry Sanders is a poor choice. Sanders quit at the height of his game because he was tired of the teams mismanagement. His choice and I would never criticize someone for stepping away from the game...it's his body. He did not lay down behind the line to keep from being hit, he was hit behind the line.

Moss, on the other hand, admitted he took plays off when he wasn't the first option...that is very unprofessional.

Your arguement seems to be a bit incoherent. Did you not say that all players take plays off and it is fine for them to do so? And how does that relate to a RB being hit for a loss?

I can't believe that you still claim that I am the confused one here.

I stated that many players take plays off. Good ones and bad ones. This is a reality.

I stated that TOs drops will not keep him out of the hall of fame any more than Barry Sanders negative runs kept him out.

This couldn't be more straight forward

Good players don't take plays off.

Maybe in your boyhood fantasy NFL. How about Randy Moss? How about nearly every defensive lineman in the NFL?

Randy Moss isn't a good football player. He's a good athlete who happens to play football. Pretty much the worst example you could have chosen.

"Randy Moss is not a good football player." You just proved I shouldn't even be dialoging with you.

Most touchdown receptions in a season – 23 (2007)

Most touchdown receptions by a rookie in a season – 17 (1998)

Most seasons with 17 or more touchdown receptions – 3 (1998, 2003, 2007)

Most seasons with 16 or more touchdown receptions – 3 (1998, 2003, 2007)

Most seasons with 11 or more touchdown receptions – 8 – tied with Jerry Rice

Most seasons with 10 or more touchdown receptions – 9 – tied with Jerry Rice

Most games in a season with at least 2 touchdown receptions – 8 (2007)

Only player to have 1,600 receiving yards and 16 receiving touchdowns in a season (2003)

Most yards receiving in a Pro Bowl game – 212 (2000)

Most touchdowns scored in first 10 games with a new team – 16 (2007)

Most 1,200+ yard receiving seasons to start a career – 6 (1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003)

Moss has averaged at least one receiving touchdown per game played in four different seasons: 1998 (17 TDs in 16 games), 2003 (17 in 16), 2004 (13 in 13), and 2007 (23 in 16)[79]

At the end of the 2008 season, Moss averaged 12.3 receiving TDs per season

Four 100+ yard games in his first four games with a new team in 2007

Youngest player in NFL history to record his 100th receiving touchdown – (29 years and 235 days)

Youngest player in NFL history to record his 120th receiving touchdown – (30 years, 313 days)

Fastest player to reach 5,000 career receiving yards – 59 games (broke record of 61 games by Jerry Rice)

Highest career yards per catch average for any player with 900+ receptions – 15.6 yards per reception

Youngest player to have 3 touchdown receptions in a game (21 years, 286 days)

Give me a break.

[ Edited by RichmondPete on Jul 26, 2011 at 16:17:47 ]

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:
You actually think every good player thats played in the NFL is going all out on every snap?

I think the idea is that they should go all out every snap.... not do they really.

All of this is hard to measure, but it's more about genuine talent vs level of effort. A coach will put up with a more established and talented player that takes 5% of snaps with less energy. An unproven and up-n-coming player that takes those 5% of snaps with less energy will likely not be given the same leniency.

I agree completely. This must be read in context with my original statement, which was merely reflecting the reality that all of these players are not giving %100 on every snap, not what it should be or what I would like to see. Even good players are guilty of taking a play off once in a while

[ Edited by RichmondPete on Jul 26, 2011 at 16:19:48 ]

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:
You actually think every good player thats played in the NFL is going all out on every snap?

I think the idea is that they should go all out every snap.... not do they really.

All of this is hard to measure, but it's more about genuine talent vs level of effort. A coach will put up with a more established and talented player that takes 5% of snaps with less energy. An unproven and up-n-coming player that takes those 5% of snaps with less energy will likely not be given the same leniency.

I agree completely. This must be read in context with my original statement, which was merely reflecting the reality that all of these players are not giving %100 on every snap, not what it should be or what I would like to see. Even good players are guilty of taking a play off once in a while

On this we can agree! But, the plays off are not acceptible, they are tolerated if the player merits it. Same goes with player behavior off the field. Some players go out and get smashed the night before big games but they still play above the competition. If they don't, they won't be tolerated for long. A good coach will point out (during film sessions) incidents where plays off hurt the team so that it doesn't become a pattern. They may embarrass the player in front of the team or they will make it a quiet reprimand.

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by cwilson830:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by cwilson830:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by Wodwo:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:


Barry Sanders is the all time leader in runs for negative yardage. Was he a first ballot hall of famer? Pleanty of players take plays off, end of argument.

Are you seriously suggesting that Barry Sanders was taking plays off?

No. I didn't suggest that at all. Maybe you should read the post history.

Never mentioned TOs drops but did state that he played hard. His problem was that he was disruptive to the team, denigrated QBs and other team mates. So comparing him to Barry Sanders is a poor choice. Sanders quit at the height of his game because he was tired of the teams mismanagement. His choice and I would never criticize someone for stepping away from the game...it's his body. He did not lay down behind the line to keep from being hit, he was hit behind the line.

Moss, on the other hand, admitted he took plays off when he wasn't the first option...that is very unprofessional.

Your arguement seems to be a bit incoherent. Did you not say that all players take plays off and it is fine for them to do so? And how does that relate to a RB being hit for a loss?

I can't believe that you still claim that I am the confused one here.

I stated that many players take plays off. Good ones and bad ones. This is a reality.

I stated that TOs drops will not keep him out of the hall of fame any more than Barry Sanders negative runs kept him out.

This couldn't be more straight forward

Good players don't take plays off.

Maybe in your boyhood fantasy NFL. How about Randy Moss? How about nearly every defensive lineman in the NFL?

Randy Moss isn't a good football player. He's a good athlete who happens to play football. Pretty much the worst example you could have chosen.

"Randy Moss is not a good football player." You just proved I shouldn't even be dialoging with you.

Most touchdown receptions in a season – 23 (2007)

Most touchdown receptions by a rookie in a season – 17 (1998)

Most seasons with 17 or more touchdown receptions – 3 (1998, 2003, 2007)

Most seasons with 16 or more touchdown receptions – 3 (1998, 2003, 2007)

Most seasons with 11 or more touchdown receptions – 8 – tied with Jerry Rice

Most seasons with 10 or more touchdown receptions – 9 – tied with Jerry Rice

Most games in a season with at least 2 touchdown receptions – 8 (2007)

Only player to have 1,600 receiving yards and 16 receiving touchdowns in a season (2003)

Most yards receiving in a Pro Bowl game – 212 (2000)

Most touchdowns scored in first 10 games with a new team – 16 (2007)

Most 1,200+ yard receiving seasons to start a career – 6 (1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003)

Moss has averaged at least one receiving touchdown per game played in four different seasons: 1998 (17 TDs in 16 games), 2003 (17 in 16), 2004 (13 in 13), and 2007 (23 in 16)[79]

At the end of the 2008 season, Moss averaged 12.3 receiving TDs per season

Four 100+ yard games in his first four games with a new team in 2007

Youngest player in NFL history to record his 100th receiving touchdown – (29 years and 235 days)

Youngest player in NFL history to record his 120th receiving touchdown – (30 years, 313 days)

Fastest player to reach 5,000 career receiving yards – 59 games (broke record of 61 games by Jerry Rice)

Highest career yards per catch average for any player with 900+ receptions – 15.6 yards per reception

Youngest player to have 3 touchdown receptions in a game (21 years, 286 days)

Give me a break.

Congratulations, you're able to copy and paste irrelevant information. He could have 500 TDs and it wouldn't take away the fact that he's lazy, selfish, a cancer to his team, and only put up with because he's a sensational athlete.

I know you can grasp the difference between him and real football players who live and breathe the game, and never take plays off. It can't be that far over your head.

Originally posted by cwilson830:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by cwilson830:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by cwilson830:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by Wodwo:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:


Barry Sanders is the all time leader in runs for negative yardage. Was he a first ballot hall of famer? Pleanty of players take plays off, end of argument.

Are you seriously suggesting that Barry Sanders was taking plays off?

No. I didn't suggest that at all. Maybe you should read the post history.

Never mentioned TOs drops but did state that he played hard. His problem was that he was disruptive to the team, denigrated QBs and other team mates. So comparing him to Barry Sanders is a poor choice. Sanders quit at the height of his game because he was tired of the teams mismanagement. His choice and I would never criticize someone for stepping away from the game...it's his body. He did not lay down behind the line to keep from being hit, he was hit behind the line.

Moss, on the other hand, admitted he took plays off when he wasn't the first option...that is very unprofessional.

Your arguement seems to be a bit incoherent. Did you not say that all players take plays off and it is fine for them to do so? And how does that relate to a RB being hit for a loss?

I can't believe that you still claim that I am the confused one here.

I stated that many players take plays off. Good ones and bad ones. This is a reality.

I stated that TOs drops will not keep him out of the hall of fame any more than Barry Sanders negative runs kept him out.

This couldn't be more straight forward

Good players don't take plays off.

Maybe in your boyhood fantasy NFL. How about Randy Moss? How about nearly every defensive lineman in the NFL?

Randy Moss isn't a good football player. He's a good athlete who happens to play football. Pretty much the worst example you could have chosen.

"Randy Moss is not a good football player." You just proved I shouldn't even be dialoging with you.

Most touchdown receptions in a season – 23 (2007)

Most touchdown receptions by a rookie in a season – 17 (1998)

Most seasons with 17 or more touchdown receptions – 3 (1998, 2003, 2007)

Most seasons with 16 or more touchdown receptions – 3 (1998, 2003, 2007)

Most seasons with 11 or more touchdown receptions – 8 – tied with Jerry Rice

Most seasons with 10 or more touchdown receptions – 9 – tied with Jerry Rice

Most games in a season with at least 2 touchdown receptions – 8 (2007)

Only player to have 1,600 receiving yards and 16 receiving touchdowns in a season (2003)

Most yards receiving in a Pro Bowl game – 212 (2000)

Most touchdowns scored in first 10 games with a new team – 16 (2007)

Most 1,200+ yard receiving seasons to start a career – 6 (1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003)

Moss has averaged at least one receiving touchdown per game played in four different seasons: 1998 (17 TDs in 16 games), 2003 (17 in 16), 2004 (13 in 13), and 2007 (23 in 16)[79]

At the end of the 2008 season, Moss averaged 12.3 receiving TDs per season

Four 100+ yard games in his first four games with a new team in 2007

Youngest player in NFL history to record his 100th receiving touchdown – (29 years and 235 days)

Youngest player in NFL history to record his 120th receiving touchdown – (30 years, 313 days)

Fastest player to reach 5,000 career receiving yards – 59 games (broke record of 61 games by Jerry Rice)

Highest career yards per catch average for any player with 900+ receptions – 15.6 yards per reception

Youngest player to have 3 touchdown receptions in a game (21 years, 286 days)

Give me a break.

Congratulations, you're able to copy and paste irrelevant information. He could have 500 TDs and it wouldn't take away the fact that he's lazy, selfish, a cancer to his team, and only put up with because he's a sensational athlete.

I know you can grasp the difference between him and real football players who live and breathe the game, and never take plays off. It can't be that far over your head.

Irrelevant information? How are 8 all time records irrelevant to him being a good player? Are you serious? Do you like football or just like the personalities you see on camera after the game?

You just think a guy has to be a choir boy to be considered a good football player. Precisely why I don't even want to associate with you as a 49er fan. You are why everyone else calls 49er fans soft and uninformed.

[ Edited by RichmondPete on Jul 26, 2011 at 16:38:59 ]

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:

Originally posted by BHulman:
Doesn't look like there is a lot time for this thread.

Good point. I hope that we can lock it up soon.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:
You actually think every good player thats played in the NFL is going all out on every snap?

I think the idea is that they should go all out every snap.... not do they really.

All of this is hard to measure, but it's more about genuine talent vs level of effort. A coach will put up with a more established and talented player that takes 5% of snaps with less energy. An unproven and up-n-coming player that takes those 5% of snaps with less energy will likely not be given the same leniency.

I agree completely. This must be read in context with my original statement, which was merely reflecting the reality that all of these players are not giving %100 on every snap, not what it should be or what I would like to see. Even good players are guilty of taking a play off once in a while

On this we can agree! But, the plays off are not acceptible, they are tolerated if the player merits it. Same goes with player behavior off the field. Some players go out and get smashed the night before big games but they still play above the competition. If they don't, they won't be tolerated for long. A good coach will point out (during film sessions) incidents where plays off hurt the team so that it doesn't become a pattern. They may embarrass the player in front of the team or they will make it a quiet reprimand.

Exactly my original point. If they produce no one notices when plays are taken off. Smart players know which plays to take off as well.

[ Edited by RichmondPete on Jul 26, 2011 at 16:41:22 ]

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by cwilson830:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by cwilson830:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by cwilson830:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by Wodwo:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:


Barry Sanders is the all time leader in runs for negative yardage. Was he a first ballot hall of famer? Pleanty of players take plays off, end of argument.

Are you seriously suggesting that Barry Sanders was taking plays off?

No. I didn't suggest that at all. Maybe you should read the post history.

Never mentioned TOs drops but did state that he played hard. His problem was that he was disruptive to the team, denigrated QBs and other team mates. So comparing him to Barry Sanders is a poor choice. Sanders quit at the height of his game because he was tired of the teams mismanagement. His choice and I would never criticize someone for stepping away from the game...it's his body. He did not lay down behind the line to keep from being hit, he was hit behind the line.

Moss, on the other hand, admitted he took plays off when he wasn't the first option...that is very unprofessional.

Your arguement seems to be a bit incoherent. Did you not say that all players take plays off and it is fine for them to do so? And how does that relate to a RB being hit for a loss?

I can't believe that you still claim that I am the confused one here.

I stated that many players take plays off. Good ones and bad ones. This is a reality.

I stated that TOs drops will not keep him out of the hall of fame any more than Barry Sanders negative runs kept him out.

This couldn't be more straight forward

Good players don't take plays off.

Maybe in your boyhood fantasy NFL. How about Randy Moss? How about nearly every defensive lineman in the NFL?

Randy Moss isn't a good football player. He's a good athlete who happens to play football. Pretty much the worst example you could have chosen.

"Randy Moss is not a good football player." You just proved I shouldn't even be dialoging with you.

Most touchdown receptions in a season – 23 (2007)

Most touchdown receptions by a rookie in a season – 17 (1998)

Most seasons with 17 or more touchdown receptions – 3 (1998, 2003, 2007)

Most seasons with 16 or more touchdown receptions – 3 (1998, 2003, 2007)

Most seasons with 11 or more touchdown receptions – 8 – tied with Jerry Rice

Most seasons with 10 or more touchdown receptions – 9 – tied with Jerry Rice

Most games in a season with at least 2 touchdown receptions – 8 (2007)

Only player to have 1,600 receiving yards and 16 receiving touchdowns in a season (2003)

Most yards receiving in a Pro Bowl game – 212 (2000)

Most touchdowns scored in first 10 games with a new team – 16 (2007)

Most 1,200+ yard receiving seasons to start a career – 6 (1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003)

Moss has averaged at least one receiving touchdown per game played in four different seasons: 1998 (17 TDs in 16 games), 2003 (17 in 16), 2004 (13 in 13), and 2007 (23 in 16)[79]

At the end of the 2008 season, Moss averaged 12.3 receiving TDs per season

Four 100+ yard games in his first four games with a new team in 2007

Youngest player in NFL history to record his 100th receiving touchdown – (29 years and 235 days)

Youngest player in NFL history to record his 120th receiving touchdown – (30 years, 313 days)

Fastest player to reach 5,000 career receiving yards – 59 games (broke record of 61 games by Jerry Rice)

Highest career yards per catch average for any player with 900+ receptions – 15.6 yards per reception

Youngest player to have 3 touchdown receptions in a game (21 years, 286 days)

Give me a break.

Congratulations, you're able to copy and paste irrelevant information. He could have 500 TDs and it wouldn't take away the fact that he's lazy, selfish, a cancer to his team, and only put up with because he's a sensational athlete.

I know you can grasp the difference between him and real football players who live and breathe the game, and never take plays off. It can't be that far over your head.

Irrelevant information? How are 8 all time records irrelevant to him being a good player? Are you serious? Do you like football or just like the personalities you see on camera after the game? Because there personalities ARE IRRELEVANT, or at least more so than his collection of all time receiving records.

You just think a guy has to be a choir boy to be considered a good football player. Precisely why I don't even want to associate with you as a 49er fan. You are why everyone else calls 49er fans soft.

Correct, work ethic has nothing to do with playing football.

And yes, I am soft because I want players on my team to try.

Originally posted by TheG0RE49er:

Yep. Deal is done.