Originally posted by LA9erFan:
I disagree with the metrics of PPG, FG%, and memorable moments that you use. And the point about handchecking is incongruous with how the game was actually played.
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
If you'd like to give specific examples about MJ's game that makes him that much better, I'm all ears.
I just gave you some "specific examples", but, alas, you decided that those particular "metrics" have no place in this discussion. How convenient for you. Most people would assert that performances on the world's biggest stage are a pretty relevant measuring stick when comparing two players. Unfortunately for you, the numbers don't lie, and so you've decided that the empirical evidence is somehow not an indicator of the overall trend.
In your world, it just doesn't matter that Player A averaged 8 more points for his career in the Finals than Player B.
In your world, it just doesn't matter that Player A averaged 9 more FG% points for his career in the Finals than Player B.
In your world, it doesn't matter that Player A literally averaged 40+ ppg for an entire Finals series while Player B has only hit the 40 point mark exactly once in 7 different Finals.
No, in your world, hard numbers and empirical data have no place in discussions comparing two different entities.
Of course, your world also eschews
qualitative data, such as when I correctly pointed out that Kobe pretty much has ZERO signature Finals moments despite being there 7 times. Meanwhile, Jordan has multiple signature moments that befit his status as GOAT while dominating the world's biggest stage. The fact that people like John Hollinger have MJ listed with 4 of the top 10 Finals individual games ever while Kobe is nowhere to be seen has no bearing on this discussion.
I mean, why would anyone use quantitative and qualitative data when making an argument when they could just throw up a random Youtube clip?
I honestly have to question whether or not you watched the NBA before the year 2000 or so. Your thoughts on the styles and caliber of defense played during Jordan's runs versus Kobe's runs are absolutely mistifying. You act as if the idea of handchecking is a mythical practice. Did you not watch the NBA during the years when teams like the Knicks/Pistons/Heat literally bodyslammed anyone who made a move in the direction of the lane? Am I speaking with a 16 year old here or something, because your ignorance and faulty logic are pretty astounding.
Are you really trying to make the argument that Kobe has faced better defense during his championship runs? Let me help you out with something here...
First off, Kobe was never the focal point of any team's defense during his first four Finals trips. That honor obviously was bestowed upon The Diesel, which is probably why Shaq banked those 3 Finals MVPs. I can only imagine what Jordan would have done if he'd had the luxury of floating around the perimeter all game and never facing a double team because the other team was devoting all of its attention to the most dominant physical presence to ever roam the lane.
So while Shaq was being double and triple teamed in the post, Kobe was playing one on one against the likes of.....wait for it.....Aaron McKie/Reggie Miller/Kerry Kittles. Seriously,
that might be the worst defensive trio in the history of the NBA. And they couldn't even handcheck the dude....And they couldn't get any help defending him because everyone had to pay so much attention to Shaq Diesel while he was crushing people in the lane. Meanwhile, Jordan did his damage with Bill Cartwright and Luc Freaking Longley in the lane.
Now the Pistons and 2008 Celtics squads had great team defense, but even the 08 Cs threw Ray Jesus Shuttlesworth Allen at Kobe. To his credit, Ray did a great job in that series, despite the fact that he was a freaking Matador on the defensive end for his entire career until he landed in Boston. The Cs were all about KG's help defense and ability to shape the team defense, which is why the Lakers won this year as KG couldn't play at his normal level for the entire series. But please don't act like Jordan wouldn't have torn Ray Allen a new one. Ray Ray never played a lick of defense until he had KG screaming at him every possession.
Who the hell guarded Kobe when they played the Magic? Courtney Lee, a freaking rookie? The Magic don't have any lockdown defenders either. They just try and funnel everything into Dwight Howard. Give me a break.
The real funny thing is that Kobe has never even had to go through the kinds of defensive battles on his way to the Finals that MJ had to deal with in the East back in the day. Only the Spurs in their prime could even dream about playing defense with the likes of the Bad Boys, Knicks, and Heat and other Eastern Conference teams from that era. Kobe got to go through the likes of the Kings and the Suns, i.e. some of the worst defensive squads of all time.
Your assertion that Kobe somehow faces more athletic players today and thus better defenses is particularly hilarious considering the extent to which the NBA has been watered down with garbage players. The league is full of one-and-dones who never learned basic defensive fundamentals and foreign players who emulate soccer while flopping or outright ignoring any semblance of defense. The average basketball IQ of a NBA player is a joke compared to the people who actually learned and played the game during Jordan's prime. Maybe that's why MJ was still dropping 40+ in games in the early 2000s even after he had turned 40 himself. He was only 38 when he put up 51 in 2001, though, haha.
Hey man, don't take my word for it. How about some words from none other than Big Chief Triangle and an array of HOFers:
During a 2007 L.A. Lakers pre-season broadcast, Phil Jackson was asked how he thought Michael Jordan would perform today, Phil said: “Michael would average 45 with these rules.”
“You can’t even touch a guy now,” says Charlotte coach Larry Brown. “The college game is much more physical than our game. I always tease Michael [Jordan], if he played today, he’d average 50.”
Question for Clyde Drexler:
In the current league where there is no hand checking and no ruff play how much better would your numbers be?
Clyde Drexler: Oh, tremendously better, from shooting percentage to points per game everything would be up, and our old teams would score a lot more points, and that is saying something because we could score a lot back then. I do think there should be an asterisk next to some of these scoring leaders, because it is much different trying to score with a forearm in your face. It is harder to score with that resistance. you had to turn your back on guys defending you back in the day with all the hand checking that was going on. For guys who penetrate these days, it’s hunting season. Yes, now you can play (floating)zone(legally), but teams rarely do.
“The defensive rules, the hand checking, the ability to make contact on a guy in certain areas …. [have] all been taken away from the game. If Kobe could get 81, I think Michael could get 100 in today’s game.” – Scottie Pippen January 2006
Craig Hodges is the Lakers shooting coach, get a look at what he said:
Q: If you could take one player in their prime, would you take Michael Jordan or Kobe?
A: M.J., all day. There’s no comparison. M.J. could score 100 points in this era. you can’t hand-check now. Imagine that trying to guard M.J. It would be crazy.
Hall of Famer Rick Barry, a keen observer of the game, said he would love to see players of the past getting to attack the basket under the new officiating. “They’d score a lot more,” he said.
Tex Winter said. “Players today can get to the basket individually much easier.”
Asked if he could defend Jordan under today’s interpretation of the rules, Dumars first laughed, “It would have been virtually impossible to defend Michael Jordan based on the way the game’s being called right now.”
I guess those guys haven't seen your precious Youtube clip. Somebody should tell them just how "incongruent" they sound. Please, oh please, try and talk some smack now when I've got
Phil Jackson and
Tex Winter backing me up.
Now then, if you still want more, allow me to kindly reiterate...
The fact that MJ averaged 33 ppg in the Finals compared to 25 ppg in the Finals for Kobe is a "specific example" of how and why MJ was much better.
The fact that MJ shot 49 freaking % fromt the field during the Finals in the handchecking era while Kobe has shot 41% in the no handchecking era while spending half that time facing limited defense because of the attention to Shaq Fu is another "specific example" of how and why MJ was much better.
The fact that MJ averaged 40+ ppg in a Finals series while Kobe has only hit the 40 point mark once in 7 Finals is a "specific example" of how and why MJ was much better.
The fact that MJ never got blown off the court during a Finals like Ray and Pierce took turns doing to Kobe in the 08 Finals is a "specific example" of how and why MJ was much better. Kobe was about the fourth best player on the floor during that series, just like he was maybe the fifth or sixth best player on the floor during the Pistons Finals.
The fact that MJ didn't give up the biggest come from behind road victory/choke job in NBA Finals history like Kobe did in 08 is a "specific example" of how and why MJ was much better.
The fact that MJ didn't get housed 4-1 by an opposing Finals team that he was favored to beat primarily because he started chucking shots and tanking games while clanging the rim at a 38% clip like Kobe did against the Pistons is a "specific example" of how and why MJ was much better.
The fact that MJ didn't go 7-28 or whatever while getting pounded by a Finals record 39 points in a decisive game like Kobe did as his team laid down and died in 08 is a "specific example" of how and why MJ was much better.
As for their individual games, Jordan was much, much better at driving the lane and finishing in traffic. Jordan was much, much better at posting up and dropping his patented turn-around/fade-away on fools. Jordan was a better passer and rebounder. Jordan was also a better defender. Jordan had a better midrange jumpshot as well. The only slight advantage Kobe has is his 3 point shot, but it's an incremental one at best. When the Finals rolled around, MJ always popped those deadly 3 pointers when it mattered most.
Just remember what your favorite coach Phil Jackson had to say about MJ:
“Michael would average 45 with these rules.”
I'll ask you...Who the hell are
you to argue with Phil Freaking Jackson?
By the way, MJ left at least 3 rings on the table with his early retirements. Anyone who argues that is a total clown, as the argument would be even more lopsided if MJ hadn't pulled out early twice.
