49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by rathman4481:
I'm pretty sure Shanahan and Lynch know what they are doing. Let's not act like Baalke and Tomsula are running the show.

Have some damn faith.

Good call.

Many still act that way.

There were so many in the Zone that though they were going to fall on their faces in the FA/Draft.

They proved them wrong.

Everyone makes a mistake - that's life.

It's learning from the mistakes that's crucial!

Baalke NEVER learned.

They're looking at the oline film. We'll be fine

Originally posted by NCommand:
Overall, agreed. But they are new to this and to think they won't make mistakes along the way, would be blind fandom.

Blind fandom is an interesting word. The niners have 3 first round talent players at guard but yet most people on spew how a third or fourth round pick is going to come in here and and be a starter and all pro day one. Blind fandom it's a great thing. Line is the hardest position to scout and it is taking these guys longer to develop but yet the niners are gonna wave there magic wand and presto we got an all pro. How about developing some of the talent that is on the line along with bringing in potential. Gotta have patience with the young lineman in today's NFL.

Originally posted by Izyniner:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Overall, agreed. But they are new to this and to think they won't make mistakes along the way, would be blind fandom.

Blind fandom is an interesting word. The niners have 3 first round talent players at guard but yet most people on spew how a third or fourth round pick is going to come in here and and be a starter and all pro day one. Blind fandom it's a great thing. Line is the hardest position to scout and it is taking these guys longer to develop but yet the niners are gonna wave there magic wand and presto we got an all pro. How about developing some of the talent that is on the line along with bringing in potential. Gotta have patience with the young lineman in today's NFL.

Except Cooper is on his 5th team, Tomlinson was traded for a 7th or whatever and Garnett was drafted for a power scheme. Sometimes a later round G who's a better fit can develop faster and reach better production than a first round talent. We'll see how it goes! Fingers crossed.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Izyniner:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Overall, agreed. But they are new to this and to think they won't make mistakes along the way, would be blind fandom.

Blind fandom is an interesting word. The niners have 3 first round talent players at guard but yet most people on spew how a third or fourth round pick is going to come in here and and be a starter and all pro day one. Blind fandom it's a great thing. Line is the hardest position to scout and it is taking these guys longer to develop but yet the niners are gonna wave there magic wand and presto we got an all pro. How about developing some of the talent that is on the line along with bringing in potential. Gotta have patience with the young lineman in today's NFL.

Except Cooper is on his 5th team, Tomlinson was traded for a 7th or whatever and Garnett was drafted for a power scheme. Sometimes a later round G who's a better fit can develop faster and reach better production than a first round talent. We'll see how it goes! Fingers crossed.

The great thing about mistakes is that we seldom know there was one until long after the fact. Was it a mistake to rely on Kaepernick? Maybe. But he looked all world at the time. A great QB coach should have been able to see this mistake before committing to it. Same with the OL but to a lesser extent. The three first rounders were well regarded but have not succeeded in the NFL. Will Shanahan's system help them? They have good OTs and a good OC to lean on, which is a huge improvement--thanks to Richburg! The question is--just how immobile are our young guards? If they can't move as Shanahan requires we may see third rounders starting. Generally, power guys are still drafted higher because they are able to look dominate in college.

My hope is that the three of them are losing weight, working on quickness and practicing pulling. Pulling is a learned activity that requires repetition to excel. First time I pulled as a young guy in HS I fell on my butt. After about two hundred reps it became second nature. One of the reasons the OL is hurt more than any other position with the CBA's limited practice requirement is not being able to get the reps in. Even big power guys can improve given enough practice.

Edit: these days NFL players need to hire coaches in the off season to learn these intricacies or they fall behind. I hope three three guys got together and hired a great retired OL coach to help them.

Originally posted by Izyniner:
Blind fandom is an interesting word. The niners have 3 first round talent players at guard but yet most people on spew how a third or fourth round pick is going to come in here and and be a starter and all pro day one. Blind fandom it's a great thing. Line is the hardest position to scout and it is taking these guys longer to develop but yet the niners are gonna wave there magic wand and presto we got an all pro. How about developing some of the talent that is on the line along with bringing in potential. Gotta have patience with the young lineman in today's NFL.

is patience worth getting jimmy killed

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
The great thing about mistakes is that we seldom know there was one until long after the fact. Was it a mistake to rely on Kaepernick? Maybe. But he looked all world at the time. A great QB coach should have been able to see this mistake before committing to it. Same with the OL but to a lesser extent. The three first rounders were well regarded but have not succeeded in the NFL. Will Shanahan's system help them? They have good OTs and a good OC to lean on, which is a huge improvement--thanks to Richburg! The question is--just how immobile are our young guards? If they can't move as Shanahan requires we may see third rounders starting. Generally, power guys are still drafted higher because they are able to look dominate in college.

My hope is that the three of them are losing weight, working on quickness and practicing pulling. Pulling is a learned activity that requires repetition to excel. First time I pulled as a young guy in HS I fell on my butt. After about two hundred reps it became second nature. One of the reasons the OL is hurt more than any other position with the CBA's limited practice requirement is not being able to get the reps in. Even big power guys can improve given enough practice.

Edit: these days NFL players need to hire coaches in the off season to learn these intricacies or they fall behind. I hope three three guys got together and hired a great retired OL coach to help them.

Right on. This was posted in the Richburg thread but since you brought it up here, I'll post it again. I hope Richberg is vocal about this with his new mates.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000660365/article/weston-richburg-calls-out-fellow-giants-olinemen
"There isn't much teaching going on at all. It's kind of sink or swim. That's why I am here (offseason training). The percentage of guys who are just OK to be there (in the league) is pretty high. This is pretty rare. The majority of my offensive line is not doing anything right now," Richburg said. "... I know a lot of guys are just happy to be there. That's the difference between them and the guys who are here (training)."

Originally posted by thl408:
Right on. This was posted in the Richburg thread but since you brought it up here, I'll post it again. I hope Richberg is vocal about this with his new mates.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000660365/article/weston-richburg-calls-out-fellow-giants-olinemen
"There isn't much teaching going on at all. It's kind of sink or swim. That's why I am here (offseason training). The percentage of guys who are just OK to be there (in the league) is pretty high. This is pretty rare. The majority of my offensive line is not doing anything right now," Richburg said. "... I know a lot of guys are just happy to be there. That's the difference between them and the guys who are here (training)."

Thanks thl! Great quote! Reading the draft profiles for Cooper and Tomlinson should make some fans happier--good to very good pass protectors! Garnett? Not so much. So Shanahan is doing the right thing by protecting JG and using play calling and deception to help the run game.

Tomlinson did not allow a sack his last two years in college. Cooper was rated a better pass protector than Tomlinson by some. What's not to like?

Originally posted by cciowa:
is patience worth getting jimmy killed

cc--see post above. Both Cooper and Tomlinson were really good pass protectors in college. If they aren't as mobile in the run game, Shanahan can scheme that or use playcalling to open up holes. But protecting JG is the highest priority.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

The great thing about mistakes is that we seldom know there was one until long after the fact. Was it a mistake to rely on Kaepernick? Maybe. But he looked all world at the time. A great QB coach should have been able to see this mistake before committing to it. Same with the OL but to a lesser extent. The three first rounders were well regarded but have not succeeded in the NFL. Will Shanahan's system help them? They have good OTs and a good OC to lean on, which is a huge improvement--thanks to Richburg! The question is--just how immobile are our young guards? If they can't move as Shanahan requires we may see third rounders starting. Generally, power guys are still drafted higher because they are able to look dominate in college.

My hope is that the three of them are losing weight, working on quickness and practicing pulling. Pulling is a learned activity that requires repetition to excel. First time I pulled as a young guy in HS I fell on my butt. After about two hundred reps it became second nature. One of the reasons the OL is hurt more than any other position with the CBA's limited practice requirement is not being able to get the reps in. Even big power guys can improve given enough practice.

Edit: these days NFL players need to hire coaches in the off season to learn these intricacies or they fall behind. I hope three three guys got together and hired a great retired OL coach to help them.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Of course, they're capable of making mistakes. I'm just skeptical of our combined brain trust calling those supposed mistakes out before they've had a chance to put their plan in place on the field. I think we'll have more of an earned right to call things out once we see the actual results because as I see it thus far, even with a rag-tag, shoddy, poorly talented OL, they beat some good teams trying to make the playoffs (if folks don't think the Jags really wanted to win that game, you haven't been paying attention) ... on the road WITHOUT their starting WR and in some cases without their starting RT and a QB who came in 1/4 of the season off a trade. Maybe it's me but that's kind of hard to do against any team in the NFL.

I agree with most throughout the thread - I am concerned, BUT I'm not hitting the panic button quite yet. Given that KS has done this before with Atlanta with another OL that wasn't quite up to par and engineered the top offense in the league, I'm going to wait just a bit before I say "terrible" even on Tomlinson given I thought most of the gaffes were on Kilgore, who's gone BTW. That move alone reinsures my faith in the moves their making despite not understanding all of them at this point.

Well stated, both of you. I've been in that same boat... concerned...as we should be. But still cautiously optimistic too with what we currently have at G plus whomever we bring in from the draft. There will be serious competition. And youth.

But I've seen way too many injuries over the past 5 years to feel good about the OL today.

My philosophy has always been, get your FQB and then invest in protecting him.

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by Izyniner:
Blind fandom is an interesting word. The niners have 3 first round talent players at guard but yet most people on spew how a third or fourth round pick is going to come in here and and be a starter and all pro day one. Blind fandom it's a great thing. Line is the hardest position to scout and it is taking these guys longer to develop but yet the niners are gonna wave there magic wand and presto we got an all pro. How about developing some of the talent that is on the line along with bringing in potential. Gotta have patience with the young lineman in today's NFL.

is patience worth getting jimmy killed

While none of us want to see Jimmy get killed it feels like you wanted them to blow the entire bank on guys that may or may not continue to produce. Remember all that money that Oakland paid for their O-line(their 2 guards were paid over 24 mil last year and had signed Donald Penn and Rodney Hudson as FA's for pretty good money at the time as well)? Yet, D. Carr got pounded last year and was hurt most of the year.

Just because a team signs some of the best available doesn't mean they'd be great fits in the scheme and produce. We could've blown elite tackle money on Norwell and he could still get Jimmy crushed. The likelyhood is lower. But, it's no guarantee.

Also, again, while I don't want to see Jimmy get crushed I don't want us to get into a "win now" mode. We have a bunch of guys over the next 2-4 years who will need contract extensions and we're already paying out 113.5 million this year just on offense which is already 64% of the cap. To add Norwell would've put us at offense counting for 72% of the salary cap this year. No matter how much rollover space you have, that's a HUGE imbalance.

Right now, we'll most likely head into this year with about 36 mil in cap space to go along with what'll be about 50 mil in space next year(estimating based off what it seems the cap will go up and rookie contracts). That puts us with 86 mil in space when needing to figure out what to do with Ward, possible extension for Tartt, Brown's extension and needing to add a couple more pieces and still save room for more extensions the next season. You just count Tartt and Brown - if they play at the level we need them to, you'd be adding at least 25 mil in contracts. Buck's 5th year will be high and Ward could command 9+ if he shows value at corner and slot.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
The great thing about mistakes is that we seldom know there was one until long after the fact. Was it a mistake to rely on Kaepernick? Maybe. But he looked all world at the time. A great QB coach should have been able to see this mistake before committing to it. Same with the OL but to a lesser extent. The three first rounders were well regarded but have not succeeded in the NFL. Will Shanahan's system help them? They have good OTs and a good OC to lean on, which is a huge improvement--thanks to Richburg! The question is--just how immobile are our young guards? If they can't move as Shanahan requires we may see third rounders starting. Generally, power guys are still drafted higher because they are able to look dominate in college.

My hope is that the three of them are losing weight, working on quickness and practicing pulling. Pulling is a learned activity that requires repetition to excel. First time I pulled as a young guy in HS I fell on my butt. After about two hundred reps it became second nature. One of the reasons the OL is hurt more than any other position with the CBA's limited practice requirement is not being able to get the reps in. Even big power guys can improve given enough practice.

Edit: these days NFL players need to hire coaches in the off season to learn these intricacies or they fall behind. I hope three three guys got together and hired a great retired OL coach to help them.

Right on. This was posted in the Richburg thread but since you brought it up here, I'll post it again. I hope Richberg is vocal about this with his new mates.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000660365/article/weston-richburg-calls-out-fellow-giants-olinemen
"There isn't much teaching going on at all. It's kind of sink or swim. That's why I am here (offseason training). The percentage of guys who are just OK to be there (in the league) is pretty high. This is pretty rare. The majority of my offensive line is not doing anything right now," Richburg said. "... I know a lot of guys are just happy to be there. That's the difference between them and the guys who are here (training)."

Great post, and I'll just add that I've been watching Kyle's NFL meeting breakfast interview, and found out that the 49er O Linemen do both man/power/gap blocking *and* zone blocking. While I kinda knew this in the back of my mind, the fact that he outright states that is very illuminating to me. He wants combinations on the O Line, it seems, not just one type. So, from what he said and from what I know about the inside zones, you need some power/man blockers to do those - which is perfect for guards like Garnett and Laken. So, to reiterate, I think it's intentional that he has some good man/power blockers in there in addition to the zone blockers to have a variety of blocking on the O Line schemes. Now he also said the majority of the time they do zone blocking, so it makes sense that the LT, C, and RT would be zone guys. So Brown really has to improve his movement for the zone blocking for this line to be at its full potential.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Well stated, both of you. I've been in that same boat... concerned...as we should be. But still cautiously optimistic too with what we currently have at G plus whomever we bring in from the draft. There will be serious competition. And youth.

But I've seen way too many injuries over the past 5 years to feel good about the OL today.

My philosophy has always been, get your FQB and then invest in protecting him.

Yep, agree, but just to point out again, there are a lot of ways to protect a franchise QB *other than* simply drafting hall of fame linemen across the board.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by Izyniner:
Blind fandom is an interesting word. The niners have 3 first round talent players at guard but yet most people on spew how a third or fourth round pick is going to come in here and and be a starter and all pro day one. Blind fandom it's a great thing. Line is the hardest position to scout and it is taking these guys longer to develop but yet the niners are gonna wave there magic wand and presto we got an all pro. How about developing some of the talent that is on the line along with bringing in potential. Gotta have patience with the young lineman in today's NFL.

is patience worth getting jimmy killed

While none of us want to see Jimmy get killed it feels like you wanted them to blow the entire bank on guys that may or may not continue to produce. Remember all that money that Oakland paid for their O-line(their 2 guards were paid over 24 mil last year and had signed Donald Penn and Rodney Hudson as FA's for pretty good money at the time as well)? Yet, D. Carr got pounded last year and was hurt most of the year.

Just because a team signs some of the best available doesn't mean they'd be great fits in the scheme and produce. We could've blown elite tackle money on Norwell and he could still get Jimmy crushed. The likelyhood is lower. But, it's no guarantee.

Also, again, while I don't want to see Jimmy get crushed I don't want us to get into a "win now" mode. We have a bunch of guys over the next 2-4 years who will need contract extensions and we're already paying out 113.5 million this year just on offense which is already 64% of the cap. To add Norwell would've put us at offense counting for 72% of the salary cap this year. No matter how much rollover space you have, that's a HUGE imbalance.

Right now, we'll most likely head into this year with about 36 mil in cap space to go along with what'll be about 50 mil in space next year(estimating based off what it seems the cap will go up and rookie contracts). That puts us with 86 mil in space when needing to figure out what to do with Ward, possible extension for Tartt, Brown's extension and needing to add a couple more pieces and still save room for more extensions the next season. You just count Tartt and Brown - if they play at the level we need them to, you'd be adding at least 25 mil in contracts. Buck's 5th year will be high and Ward could command 9 if he shows value at corner and slot.

Great post, and I'll just add - one great way to protect your franchise QB is to have a decent defense that can protect a lead and just have our precious franchise QB hand off to Juszczyk and McKinnon in the 4 minute offense.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by Izyniner:
Blind fandom is an interesting word. The niners have 3 first round talent players at guard but yet most people on spew how a third or fourth round pick is going to come in here and and be a starter and all pro day one. Blind fandom it's a great thing. Line is the hardest position to scout and it is taking these guys longer to develop but yet the niners are gonna wave there magic wand and presto we got an all pro. How about developing some of the talent that is on the line along with bringing in potential. Gotta have patience with the young lineman in today's NFL.

is patience worth getting jimmy killed

While none of us want to see Jimmy get killed it feels like you wanted them to blow the entire bank on guys that may or may not continue to produce. Remember all that money that Oakland paid for their O-line(their 2 guards were paid over 24 mil last year and had signed Donald Penn and Rodney Hudson as FA's for pretty good money at the time as well)? Yet, D. Carr got pounded last year and was hurt most of the year.

Just because a team signs some of the best available doesn't mean they'd be great fits in the scheme and produce. We could've blown elite tackle money on Norwell and he could still get Jimmy crushed. The likelyhood is lower. But, it's no guarantee.

Also, again, while I don't want to see Jimmy get crushed I don't want us to get into a "win now" mode. We have a bunch of guys over the next 2-4 years who will need contract extensions and we're already paying out 113.5 million this year just on offense which is already 64% of the cap. To add Norwell would've put us at offense counting for 72% of the salary cap this year. No matter how much rollover space you have, that's a HUGE imbalance.

Right now, we'll most likely head into this year with about 36 mil in cap space to go along with what'll be about 50 mil in space next year(estimating based off what it seems the cap will go up and rookie contracts). That puts us with 86 mil in space when needing to figure out what to do with Ward, possible extension for Tartt, Brown's extension and needing to add a couple more pieces and still save room for more extensions the next season. You just count Tartt and Brown - if they play at the level we need them to, you'd be adding at least 25 mil in contracts. Buck's 5th year will be high and Ward could command 9 if he shows value at corner and slot.

Great post, and I'll just add - one great way to protect your franchise QB is to have a decent defense that can protect a lead and just have our precious franchise QB hand off to Juszczyk and McKinnon in the 4 minute offense.