In My Opinion, I Feel Like the 49ers Need...

Originally posted by patty_t:

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
I don't think it's our lack of speed. On defense we have good speed at DL and at LB. Our CBs aren't 4.3 guys, but they have enough speed to be in man-coverage. None of our CBs are guys who should only be playing in cover-2.

We are getting beat on defense because our guys are over-pursuing. They are over-aggressive and not playing smart. Opponents are using our speed against us. Against KC and even Saints and Seattle - there were lot of screens, lot of short passes to RBs, lot of misdirection runs, double-moves, and pump-fakes.

On offense, we do lack speed. We need a RB who can run outside...and I thought Westbrook can do that, but we haven't used him much (really surprising). At WR, with Ted Ginn going down - we don't have anyone with a lot of speed. Crabtree has all-world quickness, but the guy slips and looks a little lost out there.

Snyder or Heitmann (when healthy) needs to be starting next to Davis. I think that will help Davis and both Snyder and Heitmann are quick when compared to Chilo.

But we are playing cover 2, or worse the nickel package, on passing downs. Our coaches have no faith in the speed of our corners or our safeties. Would you put Clements or Spencer in man coverage with no safety help? No way! Our coaches give those corners a ten yard cushion and safety help.

Yes, over pursuit is a problem. Why is the over pursuit occurring? I think our linemen and rushers know they need to rush the throw and do it quickly or receivers will get open. It's a recurring theme in our games. Opponents get some initial passing game going due to soft coverage, our rushers then press the issue, and then we get scorched on screen passes.

We're only playing Cover-2 when our CBs are playing zone. We do that sometimes, but we also let our CBs play quite a bit of man coverage. If you're in man coverage and you get safety help - that's not called Cover-2.

Originally posted by patty_t:

Originally posted by PopeyeJonesing:
The amateurish obsession with speed is one of the many obnoxious things about 9er talk.

You really think speed isn't an important skill in a football player? It's not the only thing, but it is clear to me that we are an exceptionally slow football team and it is hurting us.

No, I don't think it's unimportant. I just think it's insanely overrated by casual observers. Jerry Rice, Larry Fitzgerald, T.O., Jim Brown, Emmit Smith, ADP, Ronnie Lott, Nnamdi Asomugha, Darelle Revis, etc. all agree with me. Of course, Al Davis agrees with you. For us, Ashley Lelie, Ted Ginn, Kory Sheets, Iheanyi Uwaezuoke, Jason Hill, etc. all prove that treating "speed kills" as a maxim is a laughable proposition. There are amazing "fast" players, and there are amazing players who aren't "fast." Sure it matters, but its factor as a difference maker is INSANELY overstated.

Also, I disagree that we're a "slow" team or that we need more speed. Our #1 receiver (Vernon Davis) is the fastest player in the league at his position. We have yet another burner that everyone harps for every year in Ted Ginn (he's injured, not off the team). Gore isn't slow either, and Crabs and Morgan are fine in terms of speed as well. Think about the Cardinals when they were dominating everyone on offense in the past few years. Of all of their skill-position difference makers (Fitz, Boldin, all of their RBs (Edge, Hightower, Wells), Warner), none of them were "burners."

On offense we have a "burner" TE (Davis) who ran the fastest 40 for his position in NFL history, a burner #3 receiver who ran the fastest 40 yard dash overall in NFL history (Ginn), and a "burner" KR (Williams). On defense we have the fastest MLB in the league (Willis), the fastest OLB in the league (Lawson), and the fastest safety in the league that we're grooming right now (Mays) (all three ran the fastest at their positions in history if you count Willis' 4.37 not on a knee injury). You REALLY think we'd be better of with Fabian Washington, Stanford Routt, and DeAngelo Hall at CB? That's a joke. You really think LaVeorneous Coles is a better option than Crabtree because he's top 10 in 40 yard dash of all time?

Sorry to harp, but it's a major pet-peeve of mine. IMO the speed obsession is pure idiocy, and nothing more. It's the easiest way to tell that someone probably doesn't know what they're talking about. Harsh, but honesty, it's the way I feel.

Originally posted by patty_t:
It is clear over the last three weeks our team has lots of problems and most of them have been addressed here in about fifteen different threads. What hasn't been addressed is the speed of our team. We are slower than dirt.

Let's take a look at the offensive side of the ball.

Our running backs are slow. Gore and Dixon are simply not speed guys, they are pounders. Westbrook once had speed, he is now pedestrian. As a result, running plays cannot bounce out wide.We can't run sweeps, we can't turn the corner, we can't go off-tackle. The defenses we have played against cheat their outside contain guys inside. This clogs up the already miniscule running lanes.

We ran outside all over the Saints this isn't lack of speed its been the playcalling.

Quote:
Our wide receivers, particularly since Ginn's injury, are slow. Crabtree and Morgan are not stretch the field guys. Its difficult to see on TV, but at the games it is clear that they cant get seperation let alone blow past anybody. No vertical passing game results in the safeties moving up. This clogs up the short passing game: the slants, Vernon's patented seam route, and crossing routes. It also further clogs up the middle of the field, the only part of the field our offense can run at.

Fitz and Bolden weren't "stretch the seam guys either but they made the passing game work in AZ. Again its been the playcalling

Quote:
This is a huge problem. Let's look at the defense.

Our secondary is slow. On any clear passing down, we keep our corners ten yards off the ball and our safeties in a deep cover 2 for fear of getting burned by the deep ball... and rightfully so. This opens up all the underneath routes and the dink and dunk passes.

Once our defense gets dinked and dunked enough on, our pass rushers start to press. Our defense is now ready to be exploited by screen passes, which KC in particular did very, very well. It doesn't take a genius offensive coordinator to see LaBoy in the game and call up a screen pass to his side. It's choose your poison; leave Lawson or Haralson in, both have speed, and contain the ouside, but have no pass rush. Put in Laboy or Brooks, lose outside contain, and watch speedy guys pick up thirty yards on screen plays, sweeps, and tosses.

This neutralizes the speed of Willis, the one truly fast player we have on defense. Stretch the field wide with the fastest players you have and even the fastest middle linebacker in the NFL can get there if the play isn't turned back inside.

Im not a football guru by any means, but it seems clear to me that our offense needs guys that can stretch the field vertically AND horizontally. Our defense needs safeties and corners that don't need to play ten or more yards away from the ball for fear of being burned. And we need outside linebackers that have the speed to maintain outside containment and funnel ball carriers back to our defensive playmakers while also being able to apply some minimal amount of pressure to the quarterback.

It's not just the coaching folks.

What we lack on offense hasn't been speed. Its been balance. The game against the Saints was called great for the most part. Allowed our O to get into a rhythm. But we have been constantly been very predictable on O. Hopefully Mike Johnson changes all of that starting Sunday

Originally posted by killajay209:
VD is our fastest guy so why can they run a play were he can run a deep route since hes gotten better on catching the ball

Top 3 fastest players on the team:

1. Ted Ginn
2. Taylor Mays
3. Vernon Davis

Originally posted by defenderDX:

Originally posted by killajay209:
VD is our fastest guy so why can they run a play were he can run a deep route since hes gotten better on catching the ball

Top 3 fastest players on the team:

1. Ted Ginn
2. Taylor Mays
3. Vernon Davis

I think Jason Hill falls in there some where..

we have speed, its just that we don't use it....

it is true that our slowest players in their key positions have caused us to give up key plays resulting in TDs or 1st downs....mainly because of lack of speed.

on Defense its Haralson at OLB and Micheal Lewis at SS.

Goldson has enough speed, but I just think he is trying to do too much and earn a huge contract....or maybe just doing too much because we were struggling for stops and he left got too aggressive.

our corners have ok speed, Shawnte has the height and speed to keep up with most.....Nate needs to cheat alittle.....Brown just sucks....and the other guys seem fine.

Justin Smith is VERY athletic for his size...we have seen him make numerous plays in the past...showing speed and agility...and even jumping up.

on offense is where we don't use our players with speed.....we need to get players like Williams and Jason Hill on the field.....as well as RBs like Dixon who are quick and agile...even though he is big.

and we have to run more plays where Alex is running.

Originally posted by Afrikan:

Originally posted by defenderDX:

Originally posted by killajay209:
VD is our fastest guy so why can they run a play were he can run a deep route since hes gotten better on catching the ball

Top 3 fastest players on the team:

1. Ted Ginn
2. Taylor Mays
3. Vernon Davis

I think Jason Hill falls in there some where..

we have speed, its just that we don't use it....

it is true that our slowest players in their key positions have caused us to give up key plays resulting in TDs or 1st downs....mainly because of lack of speed.

on Defense its Haralson at OLB and Micheal Lewis at SS.

Goldson has enough speed, but I just think he is trying to do too much and earn a huge contract....or maybe just doing too much because we were struggling for stops and he left got too aggressive.

our corners have ok speed, Shawnte has the height and speed to keep up with most.....Nate needs to cheat alittle.....Brown just sucks....and the other guys seem fine.

Justin Smith is VERY athletic for his size...we have seen him make numerous plays in the past...showing speed and agility...and even jumping up.

on offense is where we don't use our players with speed.....we need to get players like Williams and Jason Hill on the field.....as well as RBs like Dixon who are quick and agile...even though he is big.

and we have to run more plays where Alex is running.

very specific, I like it

Originally posted by glorydayz:
We don't like speed, this is why we got Balmer & Rachall over Jackson!

This is also why we didn't even look at McCluster & Arinas!

We like big strong slow guys that don't get hurt!

True!

Originally posted by PopeyeJonesing:

Originally posted by patty_t:

Originally posted by PopeyeJonesing:
The amateurish obsession with speed is one of the many obnoxious things about 9er talk.

You really think speed isn't an important skill in a football player? It's not the only thing, but it is clear to me that we are an exceptionally slow football team and it is hurting us.

No, I don't think it's unimportant. I just think it's insanely overrated by casual observers. Jerry Rice, Larry Fitzgerald, T.O., Jim Brown, Emmit Smith, ADP, Ronnie Lott, Nnamdi Asomugha, Darelle Revis, etc. all agree with me. Of course, Al Davis agrees with you. For us, Ashley Lelie, Ted Ginn, Kory Sheets, Iheanyi Uwaezuoke, Jason Hill, etc. all prove that treating "speed kills" as a maxim is a laughable proposition. There are amazing "fast" players, and there are amazing players who aren't "fast." Sure it matters, but its factor as a difference maker is INSANELY overstated.

Also, I disagree that we're a "slow" team or that we need more speed. Our #1 receiver (Vernon Davis) is the fastest player in the league at his position. We have yet another burner that everyone harps for every year in Ted Ginn (he's injured, not off the team). Gore isn't slow either, and Crabs and Morgan are fine in terms of speed as well. Think about the Cardinals when they were dominating everyone on offense in the past few years. Of all of their skill-position difference makers (Fitz, Boldin, all of their RBs (Edge, Hightower, Wells), Warner), none of them were "burners."

On offense we have a "burner" TE (Davis) who ran the fastest 40 for his position in NFL history, a burner #3 receiver who ran the fastest 40 yard dash overall in NFL history (Ginn), and a "burner" KR (Williams). On defense we have the fastest MLB in the league (Willis), the fastest OLB in the league (Lawson), and the fastest safety in the league that we're grooming right now (Mays) (all three ran the fastest at their positions in history if you count Willis' 4.37 not on a knee injury). You REALLY think we'd be better of with Fabian Washington, Stanford Routt, and DeAngelo Hall at CB? That's a joke. You really think LaVeorneous Coles is a better option than Crabtree because he's top 10 in 40 yard dash of all time?

Sorry to harp, but it's a major pet-peeve of mine. IMO the speed obsession is pure idiocy, and nothing more. It's the easiest way to tell that someone probably doesn't know what they're talking about. Harsh, but honesty, it's the way I feel.

You're right, of course, if you're trying to say our obsession with 40 times is ridiculous!

Look at Jason Hill. Great 40 time, but it doesn't show up on the field.

Jerry Rice ran a 4.7 if I remember, but he was the fastest receiver out of his breaks, and no one ever caught him from behind. Ronnie Lott was a great tackler, but after a great start, he became a liability at corner as teams stated to take advantage of his lack of speed. But Walsh handled it differently than Singletary: he got another speed corner, and moved Lott to safety and then designed defenses to take advantage of Lott's strengths, which included an unparalleled ability to read his keys: he seemed to know what was coming before the play even started and of course, his tackling was legendary!

Lack of team speed means on out routes, your opponent consistently beats you out of your breaks, both offensively and defensively. Lack of team speed means that when you try to pull o-linemen your opponent beats them to their point of attack. Lack of team speed means you have to over-pursue with the result that you can't respond to cut-backs.

Does none of this sound familiar to you? If not, you're not watching the same games I am!

Originally posted by kstolai:

Originally posted by glorydayz:
We don't like speed, this is why we got Balmer & Rachall over Jackson!

This is also why we didn't even look at McCluster & Arinas!

We like big strong slow guys that don't get hurt!

True!

That was McCloughn(sp) philosophy. Plus Arenas is slow somewhere around 4.6

Originally posted by patty_t:
It is clear over the last three weeks our team has lots of problems and most of them have been addressed here in about fifteen different threads. What hasn't been addressed is the speed of our team. We are slower than dirt.

Let's take a look at the offensive side of the ball.

Our running backs are slow. Gore and Dixon are simply not speed guys, they are pounders. Westbrook once had speed, he is now pedestrian. As a result, running plays cannot bounce out wide.We can't run sweeps, we can't turn the corner, we can't go off-tackle. The defenses we have played against cheat their outside contain guys inside. This clogs up the already miniscule running lanes.

Our wide receivers, particularly since Ginn's injury, are slow. Crabtree and Morgan are not stretch the field guys. Its difficult to see on TV, but at the games it is clear that they cant get seperation let alone blow past anybody. No vertical passing game results in the safeties moving up. This clogs up the short passing game: the slants, Vernon's patented seam route, and crossing routes. It also further clogs up the middle of the field, the only part of the field our offense can run at.

This is a huge problem. Let's look at the defense.

Our secondary is slow. On any clear passing down, we keep our corners ten yards off the ball and our safeties in a deep cover 2 for fear of getting burned by the deep ball... and rightfully so. This opens up all the underneath routes and the dink and dunk passes.

Once our defense gets dinked and dunked enough on, our pass rushers start to press. Our defense is now ready to be exploited by screen passes, which KC in particular did very, very well. It doesn't take a genius offensive coordinator to see LaBoy in the game and call up a screen pass to his side. It's choose your poison; leave Lawson or Haralson in, both have speed, and contain the ouside, but have no pass rush. Put in Laboy or Brooks, lose outside contain, and watch speedy guys pick up thirty yards on screen plays, sweeps, and tosses.

This neutralizes the speed of Willis, the one truly fast player we have on defense. Stretch the field wide with the fastest players you have and even the fastest middle linebacker in the NFL can get there if the play isn't turned back inside.

Im not a football guru by any means, but it seems clear to me that our offense needs guys that can stretch the field vertically AND horizontally. Our defense needs safeties and corners that don't need to play ten or more yards away from the ball for fear of being burned. And we need outside linebackers that have the speed to maintain outside containment and funnel ball carriers back to our defensive playmakers while also being able to apply some minimal amount of pressure to the quarterback.

It's not just the coaching folks.

*sigh*

No. I watched last week's game three times. We are plenty fast enough. Speed as it is displayed on the field has nothing to with players' 40 times. It has everything to do with scheme. For example, running back looks fast if the defenders he's running against are out of position. By the same token, if a wideout can't run a clean route, or is sloppy coming out of his breaks, he'll look a step slow.

Timed speed is fine as the Niners go...but scheme is killing us. Big time.

Quick! get al davis in here!!! we need some team speed!!!

There's track speed then there's football speed....

VD = track speed
Gore = football speed
Mayes= track speed (he can't cover WR's)
Our fans= Madden speed

Originally posted by bret:


Jerry Rice ran a 4.7 if I remember, but he was the fastest receiver out of his breaks, and no one ever caught him from behind.

This folk wisdom that Rice was "never" caught from behind is just patently untrue. "Out of his breaks" is about agility, not speed.

Originally posted by bret:

Lack of team speed means on out routes, your opponent consistently beats you out of your breaks, both offensively and defensively. Lack of team speed means that when you try to pull o-linemen your opponent beats them to their point of attack. Lack of team speed means you have to over-pursue with the result that you can't respond to cut-backs.

Again, this sounds like agility.

Originally posted by bret:

Does none of this sound familiar to you? If not, you're not watching the same games I am!

Of course it's familiar. I just don't see how it relates. It sounds like you want to forsake 40 yard dash times and only obsess over cone drills. More power to you, I just don't see how it relates.

Anyone who thinks we are fast on defense and/or don't need any speed in the secondary, needs to go back and rewatch the last 3 games. Goldson is not fast. Bowe actually was not even in full stride waiting for that pass on flea flicker, yet Goldson couldn't make up any ground. Watch Mcluster, Jamaal Charles, and Thomas Jones in that KC game. That entire backfield ran circles around our guys. Charles averaged something like 7 yards a carry? The secondary's lack of speed was very exposed in the Atlanta game last season. There's a reason why some games the defense has looked stout one week, and then looked like chumps the next. Anytime we face a team that has a couple of burners on offense, they get exposed. Our CB's play pretty solid as long as they are not going up against anyone who has wheels. Our safeties are slow (save Mayes who's too green to start) which shows why time and time again, the opposing team seems to have someone deep behind our guys, even when it's not a situation where they are biting on playaction.

Why do we play the 3-4???






Isn't that a defense with teams who have fast personnel?