2013-2014 NBA FINALS Thread

Originally posted by crabman82:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by crabman82:
here are david robinsons games played stats for his career. 82, 82, 68, 82, 80, 81, 82, 6, 73, 49 (50 game season), 80, 80, 78, 64. that one season he played 6 games is when they only won 20 games in an era where they commonly won 50+ games. you cant look at that and say they tanked, their best player got a back injury and played 6 games. bad luck on the injury and good luck on the year you won the lottery with tim duncan coming out. it also helped that the vancouver grizzlies who had 14 wins that year were not eligible to get the #1 pick as part of their expansion agreement, they werent allow to win it along with the raptors for the first few seasons they were around.

Robinson was reportedly ready to return well before the end of the '97 season, they just held him out.

he may have been, but thats your all star who has a bad back. they shouldnt have brought him back. either way i dont think anyone can say they tanked. to me tanking is selling off your good players and putting out trash every night. your star gets hurt and you be patient with him, i cant see that as tanking.

I still remember that Boston and SA were in the tanking competition that year. Both were tryin' really hard to get the worst record. Late regular season was over-shadowed by it.

Whether you trade the talent or keep it inactive - the fact remains that they intentionally put inferior product on the court to get the best odds to land no.1 pick.

Originally posted by 4ML:

Originally posted by crabman82:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by crabman82:
here are david robinsons games played stats for his career. 82, 82, 68, 82, 80, 81, 82, 6, 73, 49 (50 game season), 80, 80, 78, 64. that one season he played 6 games is when they only won 20 games in an era where they commonly won 50+ games. you cant look at that and say they tanked, their best player got a back injury and played 6 games. bad luck on the injury and good luck on the year you won the lottery with tim duncan coming out. it also helped that the vancouver grizzlies who had 14 wins that year were not eligible to get the #1 pick as part of their expansion agreement, they werent allow to win it along with the raptors for the first few seasons they were around.

Robinson was reportedly ready to return well before the end of the '97 season, they just held him out.

he may have been, but thats your all star who has a bad back. they shouldnt have brought him back. either way i dont think anyone can say they tanked. to me tanking is selling off your good players and putting out trash every night. your star gets hurt and you be patient with him, i cant see that as tanking.

I still remember that Boston and SA were in the tanking competition that year. Both were tryin' really hard to get the worst record. Late regular season was over-shadowed by it.

Whether you trade the talent or keep it inactive - the fact remains that they intentionally put inferior product on the court to get the best odds to land no.1 pick.

thats alright if we agree to disagree. the problem in sports is when 15-20 years pass the stories get twisted and people like to state things as facts when its really a lot more complicated than that. add in us living in a society that loves a good conspiracy theory and sometimes that simple answer sitting right in front becomes too easy to believe.

Originally posted by crabman82:

thats alright if we agree to disagree. the problem in sports is when 15-20 years pass the stories get twisted and people like to state things as facts when its really a lot more complicated than that. add in us living in a society that loves a good conspiracy theory and sometimes that simple answer sitting right in front becomes too easy to believe.

It was a huge topic at the time. I'm sure you can find it online if you search.

I'm the last person who believes in conspiracy. I just think it's a logical thing to do, unethical but logical.

Originally posted by 4ML:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:
I don't begrudge Miami for doing it, but I begrudge LeBron for doing it. I understand him wanting to go to a team with more talent than Cleveland had, but he took it to the opposite extreme when he decided to team up with another superstar & yet another perennial all star in their primes.

I highly doubt any player in his position will reject playing with another perennial all-star because it can potentially make their team too good.

It was strictly about beating Celtics and duplicating how they achieved success. When Celtics went twice to the Finals - those guys were at the back-end of their primes but were still in their primes. I believe it was 6-7 years ago when they made those trips. Celtics did it by having a HOFer at SG, SF, and PF and it made sense to replicate that.

It's not the perennial all-star that I think most superstar players would have shied away from, it's the other superstar in his prime. KG, Allen, & Pierce were 32, 32, & 30 when they teamed up, and only KG was ever on the level that Wade & LeBron were on when they teamed up at age 26/28 years old. I can't think of another time in NBA history where two superstars in their primes decided to join forces via FA.

Originally posted by 4ML:

Originally posted by crabman82:
thats alright if we agree to disagree. the problem in sports is when 15-20 years pass the stories get twisted and people like to state things as facts when its really a lot more complicated than that. add in us living in a society that loves a good conspiracy theory and sometimes that simple answer sitting right in front becomes too easy to believe.

It was a huge topic at the time. I'm sure you can find it online if you search.

I'm the last person who believes in conspiracy. I just think it's a logical thing to do, unethical but logical.

I think it should be known that Robinson had a chronic back problem. I think he could have come back at some point in that season but SA would not have been in a good playoff position either way. So, they went with the safe route to get their franchise player fully healed...no Rose.

Originally posted by LA9erFan:
It's not the perennial all-star that I think most superstar players would have shied away from, it's the other superstar in his prime. KG, Allen, & Pierce were 32, 32, & 30 when they teamed up, and only KG was ever on the level that Wade & LeBron were on when they teamed up at age 26/28 years old. I can't think of another time in NBA history where two superstars in their primes decided to join forces via FA.

How many times two superstars are FA at the same time? Plus, drafted by a completely incompetent franchise located in Cleveland had a lot to do with him leaving. For 7 years - they couldn't find a borderline all-star player to play next to Lebron. He couldn't recruit anyone to come play there. I think Mo Williams was the best player Lebron played with.

If you're going to leave your team - you're going to pick the best destination possible. Had he picked Chicago - he's teaming up with Derrick Rose (a super-star in the making) and Noah. He picked Miami over Chicago. I can't blame him for picking the best opportunity.

Originally posted by Joecool:
I think it should be known that Robinson had a chronic back problem. I think he could have come back at some point in that season but SA would not have been in a good playoff position either way. So, they went with the safe route to get their franchise player fully healed...no Rose.

It wasn't like he was like healthy for just the last couple weeks of the season so Spurs decided to keep him out.

Let's forget Robinson for a second. When your star player goes out - usually other players have to take on a bigger role. The best way to do that is to increase their playing time by couple of minutes. What did the Spurs do?

Reduced the minutes of Avery Johnson (by 5 minutes), Sean Elliot (by 2 minutes), and Vinny Del Negro (by 2.5 minutes). lol c'mon man...it's obvious what they were doing and ppl called them out for it at the time.

Boston was doing the s**t.

Anyway - I don't really care about what Spurs did. Teams do what they gotta do to put themselves in the best position to win. I understand what Pete's trying to say - but IMHO circumstances for Lebron were also different than any other super-star.

But, as a Niner fan - it's hilarious to complain about Miami buying a championship. Niners did it in 90s and they may have actually broken a few rules while doing so. Miami did everything by the rules.

...and Miami has won two titles without Wade being a top 3 player. He's healthy this year...but it's obvious that he's not the player he was in 2010. Not even close. Still a star when healthy but he can't carry the team like he once could.

Originally posted by 4ML:
How many times two superstars are FA at the same time? Plus, drafted by a completely incompetent franchise located in Cleveland had a lot to do with him leaving. For 7 years - they couldn't find a borderline all-star player to play next to Lebron. He couldn't recruit anyone to come play there. I think Mo Williams was the best player Lebron played with.

If you're going to leave your team - you're going to pick the best destination possible. Had he picked Chicago - he's teaming up with Derrick Rose (a super-star in the making) and Noah. He picked Miami over Chicago. I can't blame him for picking the best opportunity.

Superstars don't have to be free agents at the same time in order to team up. You can always join a team that already has one, and I can't think of a time in NBA history where that's happened, aside from LeBron & Wade.

I've never begrudged him for leaving Cleveland. Him teaming up with Rose & Noah would have been very different than teaming up with Wade. Neither were regarded as being even close to Wade's level at the time. Wade was a 1st Team All-NBA level player.

Originally posted by 4ML:
Anyway - I don't really care about what Spurs did. Teams do what they gotta do to put themselves in the best position to win. I understand what Pete's trying to say - but IMHO circumstances for Lebron were also different than any other super-star.

But, as a Niner fan - it's hilarious to complain about Miami buying a championship. Niners did it in 90s and they may have actually broken a few rules while doing so. Miami did everything by the rules.

...and Miami has won two titles without Wade being a top 3 player. He's healthy this year...but it's obvious that he's not the player he was in 2010. Not even close. Still a star when healthy but he can't carry the team like he once could.

That's not the point with Wade though. He might not be able to carry a team for a full 82, but he's capable of dominating playoff games on a regular basis. He's still a Top 5 player, but in smaller doses. In a playoff series, Miami has the best two players on the court and 3 out of the best 4 almost every time. When it matters, I take Wade over everyone except for a couple of players in the league. And then you have a 3rd guy who's capable of 20-25 on any given night. On most teams, that third guy is a solid, Lamar Odom/Robert Horry level guy. On Miami, he's a guy who's made 9 straight all star games.

Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Superstars don't have to be free agents at the same time in order to team up. You can always join a team that already has one, and I can't think of a time in NBA history where that's happened, aside from LeBron & Wade.

I've never begrudged him for leaving Cleveland. Him teaming up with Rose & Noah would have been very different than teaming up with Wade. Neither were regarded as being even close to Wade's level at the time. Wade was a 1st Team All-NBA level player.

Wade was already with Miami.

Moses Malone (1978-79 NBA MVP, 1981-82 NBA MVP, 1982-83 NBA MVP) joined Sixers in 1982. Julius Erving was 1980-81 NBA MVP. Finished 3rd in 81-82 MVP voting and 5th in 82-83 MVP race.

Originally posted by 4ML:
Wade was already with Miami.

Moses Malone (1978-79 NBA MVP, 1981-82 NBA MVP, 1982-83 NBA MVP) joined Sixers in 1982. Julius Erving was 1980-81 NBA MVP. Finished 3rd in 81-82 MVP voting and 5th in 82-83 MVP race.

Moses was traded after Houston matched his offer sheet w/the Sixers, but that's still a good example.

Heat in 5

Originally posted by LA9erFan:
That's not the point with Wade though. He might not be able to carry a team for a full 82, but he's capable of dominating playoff games on a regular basis. He's still a Top 5 player, but in smaller doses. In a playoff series, Miami has the best two players on the court and 3 out of the best 4 almost every time. When it matters, I take Wade over everyone except for a couple of players in the league. And then you have a 3rd guy who's capable of 20-25 on any given night. On most teams, that third guy is a solid, Lamar Odom/Robert Horry level guy. On Miami, he's a guy who's made 9 straight all star games.

9 straight all-star games sound nice but was Bosh ever considered a top 4 player at his position? I don't think so and I don't think he ever was. He made all-star teams because he was in the East - which has been more guard oriented for the last decade, if not longer.

Against Pacers in game 5, Lebron left game with 8 pt lead in 3rd quarter with 5 fouls. When he checked back in it was 7pt deficit. Wade needed to carry the team for 8-9 minutes. There will be nights he may be able to keep the team afloat but he can't do it on consistent basis.

I love D-Wade, but he is not a top 5 player anymore. I don't think any of his peers believe he is...and part of being a super-star is to be a super-star consistently. That's a difference between a super-star and a star imho.

I don't want to diminish D-Wade's talent. I love him and he's one of my favorite players.

But, if Miami had 2010 or even the 2011 Wade after he gave the team to Lebron - I doubt Miami loses more 3-4 games in each of the entire playoff runs since losing to Dallas.