There are 523 users in the forums
Originally posted by elguapo:
I agree those three picks were great and I really love the tackles Athleticism with their last pic
I concur! Our offense is going to be top five like always even with injuries and our defense will be top 10 bc now we have a great depth and we can't possibly lose two all pros in the same year again, right?
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Big FACTS!!
However, that 1/3 has been so horrendous that scrutiny is warranted. And just because scrutiny is voiced don't mean we are "missing" the other 2/3 of the puzzle. As it stands that horrendous 1/3 is having an outsized effect on the total puzzle.
You know, you're actually making my point. This take would be on point if Shanny wasn't given power to 1.) basically hire his own GM (who really isn't a GM in the truest sense), and 2.) given final say of the roster. Fans like me long suspected that Shanny's focus on coaching didn't lend him the requisite time to be in the proper position to be making final decisions when it comes to the draft and roster building, and that coaches are allowed to pick their favorites (which explains a lot regarding these failed 3rd/4th round RB selections). Shanny's own words in that Rich Eisen interview confirmed those suspicions. So when you say:
I'm not sure how you would expect Kyle to carve out time during the season to watch that much tape.
. . . you really should be asking: well if that the case then how on earth can Shanny fix himself to demand final say in the draft and roster building? Since Shanny demanded to have that power position it dictated that he put more effort into scouting than 2 months of watching highlight tape before he makes his final decision on drafting players. He said himself that if he didn't like what he saw in the highlights (highlights presumably put together by the scouts after at least a whole year of flying all over the country to watching games of prospects, interviewing coaches and teammates and even family members, etc.) he didn't watch anymore of the highlights on a player. To be clear, I in no way expect Shanny to be able to focus on coaching AND have the time to put in the needed work to be able to build a roster, work a draft, and be the final say on who gets drafted. Hence, this is why I believe it was a mistake for him to demand it (or for Jed to give it) in the first place. But again, Shanny demanded this power, so scrutiny of the power exercised is fair game. IMHO, that Rich Eisen interview was a pretty damning exposé. He basically admitted that he don't have the requisite time needed to make informed decisions when it comes to the draft and roster building yet making them anyway. Even worse, based off what Shanny said in the interview, and the draft selections since 2017, it's crystal clear that the "contributing" is really the coaches having huge input on who is drafted in the early rounds over the scouts, while position coaches are allowed to prioritize their draft crushes. The scouting department don't seem to be having much of an impact until the later rounds and rookie free agents. This is how we get draft boards that deviate so drastically far from the NFL consensus and how we have whole draft classes wasted.
Yeah, "collaborative" when it comes to the coaches with their draft crushes and Shanny with final approval. And just how has that unconventional "collaborative" effort been turning out for our draft results?
Shanny needs to take a page out of Andy Reid's book and trust his GM and scouting department to draft and build the roster. It took Andy Reid being fired to learn that lesson. I'm begging for Shanny to NOT learn that lesson that way. I don't want Shanny applying that lesson learned on another team and win the SB. That's not me saying that Shanny shouldn't be consulted or shouldn't have a voice in the process. Of course he should. But he should not be having final say in this area, and definitely the position coaches shouldn't have any say at all about who's drafted, no matter how well respected they are (I'm looking at you Robert Turner and Chris Foerster). I think we can say with confidence that THAT "collaborative" approach has failed.
Originally posted by Fasteddy:
In addition to the other two phases, the scoring of some of the picks is off, as shows unrealistic expectations. Banks, Wish, Mitchell, and Winters were good picks considering that they had good performance, landed subsequent contracts or were traded for. Several others landed on other teams indicating they were at least interesting players.
This is a top 5 front office, coach, and management.
Originally posted by 49ers81:
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Originally posted by 49ers81:
12 minutes or so of Kyle talking about the team's draft process. Agree or disagree, but don't come in here anymore and say you don't understand why the team made this selection or that selection.
I watched that whole video. Yeah, Shanny's roster building powers need to be curtailed. Shanny doing this interview tells me that he's hearing the criticism. But this explains a lot of bad drafts by Shanny. He said that he doesn't start studying highlights - HIGHLIGHTS!! - until February, and don't know who the Heisman is because he's so focused on NFL ball. And watches nothing else after the draft? Says if he doesn't like what he sees on the highlight tape he won't watch anything else on the player, and won't watch more highlight tape until next February. Wow! My experience with scouting at the high school and college lever demanded not just watching highlight tapes, but going to games, talking to coaches and teammates, etc. This process takes all year even at those levels, so I can just imagine the kind of efforts NFL scouts put in. It's way more involved that a few months of watching highlight tapes. The 49ers scouting department has to be THE most frustrated scouting department in the league. In a good way it confirms why I think they reached for Stribling and Height. But in a bad way it confirms why I thought they grossly reached for Black and Willis. This interview also confirms to me that the scouting department has very little say regarding the earlier picks, but also explains why this team has had relative success in the later rounds.
You're right @49ers81, we can no longer wonder why they made these selections. This interview makes it worse. It's an indictment about the 49ers talent evaluation and draft process, and the best evidence available that shows why Shanny should get out of the roster building and draft business.
If Shanny knows (and openly admits) that all he can spare is a few months of highlight tape watching on a player then he has no business with the final say on who gets drafted.
Well, if that was your takeaway from that interview then I don't know tell you. The highlights he watches are put together by the position coaches, which means they are all contributing to the process and looking at hundreds of potential picks every season. I'm not sure how you would expect Kyle to carve out time during the season to watch that much tape. The coaches who may actually be coaching the players they are evaluating are the ones who are doing the leg work in order to find players they like and then bringing the best of those prospects to Kyle's attention so he can evaluate them. Seems like a pretty inclusive process to me and not one where Kyle is just sitting around arbitrarily deciding who he wants to pick.
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:You guys think he watches the same highlights on you tube as we do? lol
Originally posted by 49ers81:
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Originally posted by 49ers81:
12 minutes or so of Kyle talking about the team's draft process. Agree or disagree, but don't come in here anymore and say you don't understand why the team made this selection or that selection.
I watched that whole video. Yeah, Shanny's roster building powers need to be curtailed. Shanny doing this interview tells me that he's hearing the criticism. But this explains a lot of bad drafts by Shanny. He said that he doesn't start studying highlights - HIGHLIGHTS!! - until February, and don't know who the Heisman is because he's so focused on NFL ball. And watches nothing else after the draft? Says if he doesn't like what he sees on the highlight tape he won't watch anything else on the player, and won't watch more highlight tape until next February. Wow! My experience with scouting at the high school and college lever demanded not just watching highlight tapes, but going to games, talking to coaches and teammates, etc. This process takes all year even at those levels, so I can just imagine the kind of efforts NFL scouts put in. It's way more involved that a few months of watching highlight tapes. The 49ers scouting department has to be THE most frustrated scouting department in the league. In a good way it confirms why I think they reached for Stribling and Height. But in a bad way it confirms why I thought they grossly reached for Black and Willis. This interview also confirms to me that the scouting department has very little say regarding the earlier picks, but also explains why this team has had relative success in the later rounds.
You're right @49ers81, we can no longer wonder why they made these selections. This interview makes it worse. It's an indictment about the 49ers talent evaluation and draft process, and the best evidence available that shows why Shanny should get out of the roster building and draft business.
If Shanny knows (and openly admits) that all he can spare is a few months of highlight tape watching on a player then he has no business with the final say on who gets drafted.
Well, if that was your takeaway from that interview then I don't know tell you. The highlights he watches are put together by the position coaches, which means they are all contributing to the process and looking at hundreds of potential picks every season. I'm not sure how you would expect Kyle to carve out time during the season to watch that much tape. The coaches who may actually be coaching the players they are evaluating are the ones who are doing the leg work in order to find players they like and then bringing the best of those prospects to Kyle's attention so he can evaluate them. Seems like a pretty inclusive process to me and not one where Kyle is just sitting around arbitrarily deciding who he wants to pick.
IIt is a little disappointing that Kyle does not ask for all 22 cut-ups of a particular player in one two or three games. 60 plays each one taking about 20 seconds would be about 20 minutes of his time. That should be somewhere in the process
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:You guys think he watches the same highlights on you tube as we do? lol
Originally posted by 49ers81:
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Originally posted by 49ers81:
12 minutes or so of Kyle talking about the team's draft process. Agree or disagree, but don't come in here anymore and say you don't understand why the team made this selection or that selection.
I watched that whole video. Yeah, Shanny's roster building powers need to be curtailed. Shanny doing this interview tells me that he's hearing the criticism. But this explains a lot of bad drafts by Shanny. He said that he doesn't start studying highlights - HIGHLIGHTS!! - until February, and don't know who the Heisman is because he's so focused on NFL ball. And watches nothing else after the draft? Says if he doesn't like what he sees on the highlight tape he won't watch anything else on the player, and won't watch more highlight tape until next February. Wow! My experience with scouting at the high school and college lever demanded not just watching highlight tapes, but going to games, talking to coaches and teammates, etc. This process takes all year even at those levels, so I can just imagine the kind of efforts NFL scouts put in. It's way more involved that a few months of watching highlight tapes. The 49ers scouting department has to be THE most frustrated scouting department in the league. In a good way it confirms why I think they reached for Stribling and Height. But in a bad way it confirms why I thought they grossly reached for Black and Willis. This interview also confirms to me that the scouting department has very little say regarding the earlier picks, but also explains why this team has had relative success in the later rounds.
You're right @49ers81, we can no longer wonder why they made these selections. This interview makes it worse. It's an indictment about the 49ers talent evaluation and draft process, and the best evidence available that shows why Shanny should get out of the roster building and draft business.
If Shanny knows (and openly admits) that all he can spare is a few months of highlight tape watching on a player then he has no business with the final say on who gets drafted.
Well, if that was your takeaway from that interview then I don't know tell you. The highlights he watches are put together by the position coaches, which means they are all contributing to the process and looking at hundreds of potential picks every season. I'm not sure how you would expect Kyle to carve out time during the season to watch that much tape. The coaches who may actually be coaching the players they are evaluating are the ones who are doing the leg work in order to find players they like and then bringing the best of those prospects to Kyle's attention so he can evaluate them. Seems like a pretty inclusive process to me and not one where Kyle is just sitting around arbitrarily deciding who he wants to pick.
IIt is a little disappointing that Kyle does not ask for all 22 cut-ups of a particular player in one two or three games. 60 plays each one taking about 20 seconds would be about 20 minutes of his time. That should be somewhere in the process
if that were the case, we wouldn't be drafting the unpopular picks
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Who on earth said Shanny watches highlights on YouTube?
The thing is that he watches highlights (starting in February until the draft) put together by his position coaches, then Shanny makes the final say. The scouts (you know, the people they pay good money to fly around the country to actually do the true scouting footwork) don't seem to be the ones putting things together for Shanny. This is just a bad process and it's showing. IMHO the scouts and GM need to be running roster building and the draft. The HC should definitely have input. But the position coaches shouldn't be anywhere near talent evaluation, the draft process, nor roster building.
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Who on earth said Shanny watches highlights on YouTube?
The thing is that he watches highlights (starting in February until the draft) put together by his position coaches, then Shanny makes the final say. The scouts (you know, the people they pay good money to fly around the country to actually do the true scouting footwork) don't seem to be the ones putting things together for Shanny. This is just a bad process and it's showing. IMHO the scouts and GM need to be running roster building and the draft. The HC should definitely have input. But the position coaches shouldn't be anywhere near talent evaluation, the draft process, nor roster building.
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Who on earth said Shanny watches highlights on YouTube?
The thing is that he watches highlights (starting in February until the draft) put together by his position coaches, then Shanny makes the final say. The scouts (you know, the people they pay good money to fly around the country to actually do the true scouting footwork) don't seem to be the ones putting things together for Shanny. This is just a bad process and it's showing. IMHO the scouts and GM need to be running roster building and the draft. The HC should definitely have input. But the position coaches shouldn't be anywhere near talent evaluation, the draft process, nor roster building.
Position coaches will always be heavily involved in coaching and developing a rookie player. Hence it's a good idea in my book to involve them in choosing and evaluating the players they want to draft and develop.
The worst thing you can do is give a positon coach a player he doesn't belive in.
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Who on earth said Shanny watches highlights on YouTube?
The thing is that he watches highlights (starting in February until the draft) put together by his position coaches, then Shanny makes the final say. The scouts (you know, the people they pay good money to fly around the country to actually do the true scouting footwork) don't seem to be the ones putting things together for Shanny. This is just a bad process and it's showing. IMHO the scouts and GM need to be running roster building and the draft. The HC should definitely have input. But the position coaches shouldn't be anywhere near talent evaluation, the draft process, nor roster building.
Position coaches will always be heavily involved in coaching and developing a rookie player. Hence it's a good idea in my book to involve them in choosing and evaluating the players they want to draft and develop.
The worst thing you can do is give a positon coach a player he doesn't belive in.
I ask this question again: and just how has this approach worked for our draft and roster building so far? And before you answer that question take a look at my post detailing every drafted player in the Shanny era since 2017.
And just so you know, when it comes to draft season typically the GM's and scouting departments are the ones doing the evaluation and scouting legwork. This is well outside of the job description and purpose of position coaches. Their evaluation comes after the talent is in the building. That's when they coach them up on technique and scheme needs of the team. To the extent that they are evaluating they should only be doing so to determine playing time. Position coaches are judged by how well they can get players coached up, not how well thy evaluate talent to draft.
So, who position coach desires to be drafted should never - EVER - go into their calculous when coaching players up. If a position coach wants his input to be taken regarding draft elaboration he should lobby for a job in the personnel department. And if the position coach don't like or believe in a player under his tutelage, that determination had better come after he's made every effort to get the player coached up, not before. Because if it's the latter then that position coach needs to seek employment on another coaching staff.
I can't complain about two super bowl appearances in the last seven years. Not to mention beating the eventual Superbowl Champs last year having lost a ton of starters in the offseason. And Position Coaches are critical in player development, so they should be involved in the draft too. Tomlin and Lynch overlapped for three seasons on the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, where the former served as the defensive backs coach. "I miss it for myself. Combine is a time where we often caught up," Lynch said. Lynch then offered a personal story about when Tomlin arrived in Tampa Bay as the defensive backs coach in 2001. "It's odd to say with someone who's a couple years younger than you — a tremendous influence in my life. You know, he came to coach me in Tampa when Herm Edwards took the Jets job. I could tell he was special right away. And he challenged me to be better.
[...]
the first minicamp we ever had, he handed me an old VCR and a legal pad and it had like 86 plays of things I could do better, and it actually ticked me off at first. I'm in the prime of my career and this guy coming out of college is going to tell me why I need to be this much better. And my wife, as she often does, said, 'Have you read it? Can it make you better?' And I did just that. I listened to Linda Lynch. I started reading it, and I became a better player. And that's the way Mike's special.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/49ers-gm-john-lynch-mike-tomlin-challenged-me-to-be-better/ar-AA1X4G9g
To define the position coach: The most integral part of player skill development in any sport, or specialist. The position coach is like going to a heart specialist instead of your general family doctor. As a position coach, you must hone your craft at your position, and find ways to detail the individual needs of your position players. The success a position coach has with his players largely hinges on the success of the scheme that you are in.
https://www.footballxos.com/defining-position-coach/#google_vignette
Originally posted by 49ers81:
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Who on earth said Shanny watches highlights on YouTube?
The thing is that he watches highlights (starting in February until the draft) put together by his position coaches, then Shanny makes the final say. The scouts (you know, the people they pay good money to fly around the country to actually do the true scouting footwork) don't seem to be the ones putting things together for Shanny. This is just a bad process and it's showing. IMHO the scouts and GM need to be running roster building and the draft. The HC should definitely have input. But the position coaches shouldn't be anywhere near talent evaluation, the draft process, nor roster building.
And you're making this assumption, why? Because Shanahan didn't specifically mention it in a five-minute interview. Because they do get paid to make player evaluations the logical assumption would be that putting together highlight reels is exactly part of their job. You and a lot of other posters seem to have a habit of basing your arguments on things that you have no way of knowing are true, but you've convinced yourself they are, because that reinforces the narrative you've created around Shanahan, Lynch and the 49ers draft process in general.
Now, would we all like to see the team get more value from the players they've selected - and by value I don't mean where they're selected in relation to where people think they should have be chosen, but rather in the positive impact they have on the team - of course we would. Does that mean they need better scouts or a new GM? I don't know, it's hard to evaluate clearly looking at it from the outside, but I thought Shanahan did a good job of shining a bit of light onto the process in that interview.
And, if you listen to people who actually have the ability to look at game tape and break it down in a meaningful way, you'll find that almost everyone they selected in this draft fits their scheme in a specific way, or offers some intriguing potential, like that LB Dugger. Will all of them work out the way the team hopes, probably not, but that's just the nature of the draft. Personally, I think it's a pretty interesting draft class, including the UDFAs, and I'll be curious to see how they all progress. Go Niners!
I feel like I'm just always playing catch-up. That's what John and his whole department they do ["grind tape"] all year. So they got a really good idea in January when the [collage] season ends. They kind of re-evaluate it after all the pro-days, the combine and everything but, they don't change that much [my emphasis]. . . .
. . . . we give all the position coaches the responsibility to make highlight tapes on everybody. I tell them that they gotta watch a lot of game tape to make those highlight tapes, and then I study their highlight tapes . . . .
