Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by glorydayz:
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by glorydayz:
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Originally posted by glorydayz:
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Originally posted by glorydayz:
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by glorydayz:
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Originally posted by glorydayz:
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by glorydayz:
Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:
Originally posted by ninersrule4:
McVay is the only coach I no questions ask put above Kyle. No way on Reid.
mcvay is the same tree, they are very similar. i think head to head is one of the best matchups in the nfl. that's the coaching battle of our time. i think shanny has a big edge over mcvay lifetime, i could be wrong, but just in terms of the record.
So you think KS should be placed higher than the coach who beat him in two super bowls?
Each time Reid did it, he used his offense late in the game ala Walsh & Montana to come back for those wins so he's also edging KS at his own strength as an offensive guru. I bleed Red & Gold but… Come on!
Chiefs didn't win those SBs cuz of their offense. Even in 2019 with their juggernaut offense it was really their defense that helped them close that game out. We just needed 1 first down to really secure that game and Chris Jones and that defense did their job. Not to mention the refs putting on blinders to holding has nothing to do with coaching.
2023 was a total defensive masterclass without which that final drive never happens. That's on Spags. And I can guarantee you if Shanahan had a DC like that for that game we're 100% walking away with that trophy.
I wouldn't even put McVay over Kyle...though I can understand someone who would. Right now the only thing Sean has on Kyle was that SB win and yet McVay was outcoached big time in that NFCCG, if not for Stafford making the plays he did and the 49ers making the mistakes they did McVay goes 0-3 against Kyle that season.
If there is any coach right now who Kyle doesn't have a logical basis of being better than...unfortunately it's the guy in Seattle. But the sample size is small(but impressive)
I lot of hypotheticals and excuses in that post, the fact of the matter is that we were up and then we lost when they came back via there offense scoring TD's.
The Chiefs even had a walk-off TD in OT with that Tom & Jerry play to win the super bowl, I love Kyle but he can't do that.
You are right, the Chiefs also had a killer Defense but They also had the offense to come back and beat the Bills when the Bills scored a go ahead TD with like 19 seconds left in the game. Once again I love Kyle but he can't do that.
The trolling continues
Kyle schemed multiple guys open in both Super Bowls
the only thing you're correct on is yeah Kyle can't do it because he's not on the field
He's never done it in a SB.
But to his credit he did come back against the Lions in the NFCCG
See my post above. He's literally done it in each SB. He cannot execute the plays for the guys on the field. This isn't Madden.
If it wasn't executed it goes down as an attempt not a "done it" as you say.
He has not done it.
Andy has never done it
That's cap, A.R has done it twice to us in the super bowl.
Incorrect, it was Mahomes. Andy has never won anything until Mahomes. A qb who doesn't play within a scheme or called play and does a lot of ad libbing
Andy also has lost two SBs with that QB due to the above traits mentioned
KS had an opportunity to draft Mahomes but chose Solomon Thomas instead.
Andy not only drafted PM but he also molded him into a future HOF QB! He also traded up to grab Mahomes. Who calls the plays for the Chiefs?
Are we doing this again? Are you being ignorant on purpose or accident?
It's ignorant to tell the truth about who our guy selected over P. Mahomes?
Are you being naive on accident or on purpose?
It's ignorant because this has been covered in this thread and others a BUNCH of times and I'm confident you were involved in several of them.
Truth? Here is the truth.
1. Andy Reid was not the guy who pushed for Mahomes. It was Brett Veach who wasn't even the GM at the time who heavily pushed for Mahomes and sold him to both Reid and Dorsey(who was the GM)
2. The QB Andy Reid identified as the replacement for Alex Smith was Paxton Lynch. He would've been Andy's choice if Denver didn't trade ahead of them in 2016.
3. Patrick Mahomes wasn't a top 3 prospect in that draft class. The Chiefs got a ton of slack for making that pick at the time. Here is a quick reminder of how most saw that first round at the time, not with these hindsight goggles you guys like to use.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2706180-nfl-draft-2017-round-1-grades-for-every-pick
4. Andy Reid and Kyle Shanahan were in VASTLY different parts of their careers. Andy Reid had already been a HC for 18 years with 0 SBs to show for it and 8 years of no appearances beyond the divisional round of the playoffs. He had a QB who was turning 33 years old with clear limitations to how he played the game. Still they were a 12-4 team who underperformed in the playoffs. Them swinging for the fences like that made sense. They were clearly a top level QB away from doing great things.
Meanwhile Shanahan was coming into his first year as a HC for a 2-14 team with a historically bad defense and a roster filled with few cornerstone players. Kyle using a top 3 pick for a QB who virtually nobody saw as a top 3 pick at the time would've been an insane move. Now maybe in hindsight it was the right move but to pretend it was the obvious move is trash.
The truth is we never actually got to see Kyle's vision going into that 2017 NFL draft because his plan was always to go get Kirk Cousins after that 2017 season. The Jimmy G trade changed everything. Shanahan made the logic decision to go with a QB he 100% knew could run his system at a high level over an unproven toolsy QB who many felt would have a tough time with pro systems and had mechanical flaws.
Andy Reid was in a position to be patient with a guy like Mahomes. Mahomes HIMSELF talked about how he would've never turned into the player he is now without being able to sit behind Alex Smith that rookie season and learn how to be a pro.
If Shanahan drafts him at 2/3 he's not sitting. He also has who...Brian Hoyer to learn from?
Trying to give Andy Reid all that credit for Mahomes is laughable. Yes he deserves his kudos in helping develop Mahomes but pretending that gives him an edge over Shanahan is a terrible take.
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Originally posted by glorydayz:
Using online media reports for drafting isn't ideal. PM didn't go 3-4 rounds later he went in the top of the first round! AR had to sign off on this as he is the HC & OC. Not to mention we reach for less talented guys all the time. Saying that this was all an accident by AR is mind blowing, accidents happen in round 7.
Pure denial here lol
You're making some fair points, but I think you're taking too much agency away from Reid while giving Shanahan a pass.
1. Brett Veach deserves a ton of credit for identifying Mahomes. Nobody disputes that. But Andy Reid still had to be convinced, sign off on the evaluation, trade up 17 spots, and then build the offense around him. Head coaches don't get to say, "That was the scout's idea," when it works. Reid gets credit because he ultimately made the decision to hitch his future to Mahomes.
2. The Paxton Lynch story doesn't really change anything. Coaches and GMs evaluate multiple quarterbacks every year. Reid may have liked Lynch in 2016, but when 2017 came around he changed course, identified Mahomes as worth trading significant draft capital for, and that decision changed NFL history. Good coaches adjust.
3. Mahomes wasn't viewed as a top-three prospect. That's exactly why Reid deserves credit. Great organizations aren't judged by consensus mock drafts—they get paid to be ahead of consensus. If everyone knew Mahomes was becoming an all-time great, he would've gone first overall.
4. Shanahan inherited a bad roster. True. But franchise quarterbacks are exactly how you escape bad rosters. Passing on Mahomes because the team wasn't ready is basically arguing that you shouldn't draft elite talent until you're already good. That's backwards. If you believe a quarterback is special, you take him and build around him.
5. The Kirk Cousins plan isn't a defense. If Shanahan's long-term plan was to wait a year and sign a soon-to-be expensive veteran instead of drafting a 21-year-old quarterback with elite upside, that's still his football philosophy. History shows that philosophy was wrong.
6. Mahomes needed to sit? Maybe. But that's speculation. Nobody knows how he develops in San Francisco. What we do know is that Shanahan has consistently been praised as one of the league's best offensive minds and quarterback developers. If we're giving Shanahan credit for maximizing Purdy, Ryan, Garoppolo and others, then it's hard to argue he couldn't have developed Mahomes.
At the end of the day, neither coach "discovered" Mahomes by themselves. Veach deserves enormous credit. But Reid deserves credit for trusting the evaluation, aggressively moving up to get him, sitting him for a year, and building an offense that maximized his strengths.
Shanahan deserves criticism for not finding his franchise quarterback until years later after investing heavily in Garoppolo and then Trey Lance. Reid solved the quarterback position in 2017. Shanahan didn't solve it until Purdy fell into his lap in the seventh round.
That's the difference.
Now, who's in denial?