Passing game - play by play v Carolina

Originally posted by dj43:

I am not saying he is. I am relating what I saw on about 3 hours of 49er game study last night. What I saw was that Gabbert was not as horrible as some seem to think.

At some point in the last month, just about every writer and most NT posters have commented on our lack of WR talent. It has often dominated the Baalke thread. The lack of talent at WR is undeniable. Our best receiver is a TE with a history of drops in key situations, and we saw that bugaboo appear again yesterday. Smith was a #2 at Baltimore. Kerley was a castoff who is limited by lack of size and that showed up on a ball he only got his fingertips on that would have been held easily by a 6"2" receiver. Patton would be a role player on a good passing team. etc...

At some point, that lack of talent shows up in the performance of the QB. In the GB/Minne game last night, the announcers often mentioned how the great Aaron Rodgers struggled last season without Jordy Nelson. Even last night it was obvious Nelson and Rodgers were not yet on the same page, as Collinsworth noted.

A great QB can make average to below average receivers look better, and the same thing applies in reverse - when you have below average receivers an average QB is going to look below average as well.

So your saying we have to bring in a bunch of stud play makers to make our below QB actually play better lol?

Pretty sure that would help every QB

Dude has been below to bad in the league since day 1... You could have jerry rice out there and he'd still be inaccurate. It's all mechanics and he's footwork makes him inaccurate, doesn't matter who he's throwing to sill not gonna be on target.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by dj43:
Many of the passes he threw today were obvious plays designed to go no more than 10 yards in the air. When I reviewed each play, it became obvious that he wasn't even looking at anything else than those short throws. It wasn't like he was looking away from something else to come back to those short throws.

You ever think there's a reason all he is given is short plays? Because maybe the staff doesn't have a ton of faith in him being accurate enough to push the ball down field, in reality he hasn't been that QB that can do that not even in college.

Saw the same thing in Philly. Kelly has said he uses the quick, short passes to the wings to force defenders to run around more and get tired. Bill Walsh used to do the same thing.

Spreading the defense horizontally is as important as spreading it vertically. At present, we only have Smith who can spread it vertically, and a good team like the Panthers can double him and not fear any of the other receivers in single.

The HUGE difference here was that Montana and Young - even Grbac, Garcia and Kubiak - yes that Kubiak at one time was a back-up QB in Walsh's system, all were ACCURATE passers.

We are now talking about two different things. My comment was about the fact that on numerous plays yesterday, and the week before, there was no other look than to throw the ball short and wide. It was obvious that it was a designed play. Now that may have been that Gabbert had a pre-snap read that dictated that throw but I do not believe that was always the case. Too many times there was not other look than the throw that he made.

Yes, accuracy is always a problem but as the data from yesterday shows, there were only 5 times were accuracy was the sole issue. Those 5 may have made the difference in the game although the yardage Carolina piled up would have been hard to overcome with a perfect performance. Against the NFC champs, the margin for error is almost non-existent. The fact we put up 27 was encouraging.

Originally posted by ChazBoner:

too bad there were no decent WRs in the past 5 drafts.

Agreed

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by dj43:
I am not saying he is. I am relating what I saw on about 3 hours of 49er game study last night. What I saw was that Gabbert was not as horrible as some seem to think.

At some point in the last month, just about every writer and most NT posters have commented on our lack of WR talent. It has often dominated the Baalke thread. The lack of talent at WR is undeniable. Our best receiver is a TE with a history of drops in key situations, and we saw that bugaboo appear again yesterday. Smith was a #2 at Baltimore. Kerley was a castoff who is limited by lack of size and that showed up on a ball he only got his fingertips on that would have been held easily by a 6"2" receiver. Patton would be a role player on a good passing team. etc...

At some point, that lack of talent shows up in the performance of the QB. In the GB/Minne game last night, the announcers often mentioned how the great Aaron Rodgers struggled last season without Jordy Nelson. Even last night it was obvious Nelson and Rodgers were not yet on the same page, as Collinsworth noted.

A great QB can make average to below average receivers look better, and the same thing applies in reverse - when you have below average receivers an average QB is going to look below average as well.

So your saying we have to bring in a bunch of stud play makers to make our below QB actually play better lol?

Pretty sure that would help every QB

Dude has been below to bad in the league since day 1... You could have jerry rice out there and he'd still be inaccurate. It's all mechanics and he's footwork makes him inaccurate, doesn't matter who he's throwing to sill not gonna be on target.

Is that what you took from my post? smh

History should tell us that this season, and only this season, has Gabbert had the quality of OL that allows him time to make plays. In only two games you will not be able to make the adjustments to get your game to a higher level.

As to lack of quality footwork, I don't know where that comes from after watching that very thing carefully in yesterday's game. Other than the play where Martin whiffed on his block and Gabbert had to throw off his back foot, his footwork yesterday was very good. His feet were aligned with this pass direction. His weight shifted as his arm came forward, etc. Don't know where you are getting footwork/mechanics idea. Film denies your assertion.

Originally posted by NYniner85:
That horizontal passing game goes out the window when he's not accurate enough to throw the ball as well...I'm not even talking bout 20+ yard passes just something past the 1st down marker every once in a while. Foles lead the league in ypa with chip, so that's not completely true.

Yes we don't have the play makers in place, but they do have one of the best deep threats in the league and a guy that creates more PIs then anyone else. Carolina doesn't have a stud secondary at all but Blaine made them look great.

Blaine hasn't been a accurate QB on balls of 15+ or more yards before he even had chip as his HC so it's not surprising they call the plays that they do.

Having Desean Jackson, at the time, the best deep threat in the game, will do that for you.

Originally posted by dj43:


Yes, accuracy is always a problem but as the data from yesterday shows, there were only 5 times were accuracy was the sole issue.

What you call "data" I call your own subjective opinion. If the QB doesnt consistently make accurate passes, with good ball placement, then an offense will stall.

Trying to claim that accuracy is not a problem for a QB who struggles to complete throws beyond 10 yards and who failed to complete 50% of his throws is ridiculous.

Good job! I definitely think Gabbert's getting unfair negative reviews especially because of the end of the game with the 2 interceptions, but sometimes that happens when you are forced to take chances while trying to come back for the win against a very good defense. Is anybody going to say Aaron Rodgers is a horrible QB because he did the same thing last night?!

I don't blame Gabbert for those interceptions at the end. The team needed to make plays and at least he was being aggressive and trying to make plays.... better than holding on the ball and getting sacked. Or throwing short of the sticks on third down.

Has anyone noticed that Gabbert seems to be pushing it more on 3rd down this year? Thats a good improvement already from last year.

The fact is Gabbert did some very good things and some bad things just like the entire team. It is definitely promising after last year though.
Both the defense and offense did some good things but they were too inconsistent going against a really good team.

Remember the team is very young with a lot of players at new positions. It will take time to develop the team, but look at the first half last night to see some positive signs.

Originally posted by matguy87:
. Is anybody going to say Aaron Rodgers is a horrible QB because he did the same thing last night?!

No, because Rodgers has a history of excellent quarterbac play. Gabbert has a history of terrible accuracy and happy feet. Rodgers has been one of the best QB's in the NFL over the past 6 years, Gabbert has been one of the very worst. THAT is the difference.

When Rodgers struggles, that is the exception to the rule. When Gabbert does well, that is the exception to the rule.

Review the tape on 6+ qbs yesterday that looked like complete garbage. None of them flew into est from pst on a short week and played the probable Superbowl winners this year.

Originally posted by dj43:

A great QB can make average to below average receivers look better, and the same thing applies in reverse - when you have below average receivers an average QB is going to look below average as well.

But it really doesn't. A great QB can make average receivers look better. Great WR's don't necessarily make an average or below average QB look better. Check out what Larry Fitzgerald looked like with Kevin Kolb and co. throwing the football compared to the incredible career resurgence he has seen with Carson Palmer playing quarterback.


A QB that struggles to consistently deliver the ball accurately will struggle no matter who their receiver is because it usually relates back to their own mechanics and while you might find a guy with a wider catching radius, you still need a QB with somewhat consistently good ball placement.


Cam Newton was pretty much on point with ball placement, some of those deep throws, he was dropping dimes 30+ yards down the field to Ted Ginn. Ginn will never be mistaken for a great receiver but with Cam's deep ball accuracy, a guy like that who was useless as a receiver for the 49ers, has become a valuable weapon for Carolina.

dj43 thanks for creating this thread. Very interesting read. I'll be sure to check out his dropbacks when the all22 comes out. I thought the OL did a fine job protecting him and I think I saw CAR playing a lot of zone so I'd like to see how well the WRs were doing downfield. I think you left out one important play in your summary and it came on the 49ers first possession.

Gabbert dropped back and worked the Smash concept to his right. After seeing no one was open (correct read), he senses ghost pressure, panicked, started to evade what wasn't there, then threw it away. Had he remained gathered like he did on the Torrey TD pass, he would have worked the route combo to his left and saw this (below). You can add another - play.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
No, because Rodgers has a history of excellent quarterbac play. Gabbert has a history of terrible accuracy and happy feet. Rodgers has been one of the best QB's in the NFL over the past 6 years, Gabbert has been one of the very worst. THAT is the difference.

When Rodgers struggles, that is the exception to the rule. When Gabbert does well, that is the exception to the rule.

My point is it happens to the best... You need to have realistic expectations. The team is young and developing we need to have some patience especially when they have the cards stacked against them and are going against a great team. Gabbert has shown that he can do what some of the best do. He needs to become consistent now over the season like a lot of our other players need to do.

Originally posted by jonnydel:

Originally posted by BleedsRedNGold:

We need to be patient, guys. We were playing a team with a QB and receivers that have been in the same system for a couple of years. Our guys have only been in this system for a few months. Two of our receivers have only been in the system for a couple of weeks.

Please be patient guys. Sometimes it takes a whole season for teams to start clicking. Hell, we may not look really good until next season. I remember when McAdoo first came aboard to the Giants. They looked like garbage--from Eli to the WRs.

To illustrate on a teeny, tiny scale. Switch to a new playbook in Madden and see how well you play in a game. I'm NOT comparing learning a new system to playing Madden, I'm just using an illustration that most on here might be familiar with.

Last year Blaine looked good, but he was playing in Geep's system for two years at that point. I'm not ready to crucify anyone at this point. And at the end of the day, we still look better than the Seahawks. What's Russell's excuse as to why he stinks it up at the beginning of every season? He's been in the same system his whole career.

I think this is a really good point - and something I need reminding of as well. We like to point all the blame at Gabbert, or Kelly or say another guy would do better. But I think we forget how much work and how much time it takes for passing offenses to come together. Receivers and QB's knowing each other.

I think we do need to give Gabbert some grace-period here. All but 2 of the receivers he was working with this off-season are on the street. There's going to be off-target throws simply because it's different guys running it than were in April, May, June and August. It takes a while and constant repetition to get that amazing timing and accuracy down with each other.

The madden analogy is a really good one. Last years' Madden it was going on the 4th year with the same playbook and I knew that playbook from top down. The concepts, the formations, I could play a game with 40 plays and run 39 different plays and confuse the h--- out of an opponent. This year, the playbook is completely different, even though it'll be the same concepts, their out of different formations, different receivers running them and they'll be slightly different - I straight up went and made my own custom playbook so I'd know my own plays, lol....

I think you are being too lenient on some of those passes. They were EXTREMELY off. Maybe I'm wrong, looking forward to film thread to see.

as far as Madden, you can use Buffalo's playbook (Roman ) it has the closest looking playbook to last year's.

Originally posted by matguy87:
My point is it happens to the best... You need to have realistic expectations. The team is young and developing we need to have some patience especially when they have the cards stacked against them and are going against a great team. Gabbert has shown that he can do what some of the best do. He needs to become consistent now over the season like a lot of our other players need to do.

But Gabbert isn't the best. It'd be one thing if Gabbert had a solid track record of success and high quality quarterback play in the NFL but this is just a continuation of his existing pattern of mediocrity. You can't use the "well everyone has bad games" line when Gabbert never really has any good ones, just varying from average to mediocre.

Nothing Blaine Gabbert has done in the first two weeks has convinced onlookers of his long-term suitability for the starting spot. Despite being offered relatively good protection, Gabbert recorded yet another poor outing in Week 2. He completed only five of 16 attempts beyond 10 yards, with two picks. Gabbert was highly erratic in the short range, as well, managing an adjusted completion percentage of only 61.8 overall. It will be difficult for San Francisco to compete in the NFC West with their current staple of quarterback options.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-sf-car-grades/




http://www.knbr.com/2016/09/18/blaine-gabbert-uninspiring-clock-ticking-on-his-starting-job/

Touted for his accuracy by the staunch 49ers faithful on Twitter, Gabbert completed 48 percent of his passes, his lowest total since a 2013 game as a member of the Jaguars. Balls skipped by receivers feet or sailed over their heads on third downs. Two interceptions in the fourth quarter ended any slim chance of a 49ers comeback.

Originally posted by dj43:
We are now talking about two different things. My comment was about the fact that on numerous plays yesterday, and the week before, there was no other look than to throw the ball short and wide. It was obvious that it was a designed play. Now that may have been that Gabbert had a pre-snap read that dictated that throw but I do not believe that was always the case. Too many times there was not other look than the throw that he made.

Yes, accuracy is always a problem but as the data from yesterday shows, there were only 5 times were accuracy was the sole issue. Those 5 may have made the difference in the game although the yardage Carolina piled up would have been hard to overcome with a perfect performance. Against the NFC champs, the margin for error is almost non-existent. The fact we put up 27 was encouraging.

Well put