Starting on Defense.....

Originally posted by dsmith_49erz:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
You think Acker starters? Why? He's a zone CB not the press man they are looking for. It's looking like (very early) Brock and Ward on the outside. I wouldn't be surprised if Acker doesn't even make the final roster in favor of Robinson.

Acker makes the team..stop it.
Just as everyone on this board, I voice my opinion. This team needs quality corners that can play, just because he's a better zone guy doesn't mean he can't cover. When was the last time we had a true press cover?
Until we can generate constant heat up front the coverage concepts goes out the window when the QB has too much time in the pocket...Acker is at least out 3rd best corner.

I'm not trying to argue with you, you can voice your opinion no problem

He probably makes the team, but I don't see him getting the snaps he got last season unless someone is injured. We haven't had a true press CB because we hadn't ran a scheme for it since before Harbs came in. Go look at O'Neil's defenses that's what he runs. That's the reason they drafted 3 CBs because some of the players we had were geared towards zone.

IMO Acker isn't at least our 3rd best CB. His coverage rank on the team last year (per PFF) was worst on the team. He was great against the run but awful in coverage.

I have no problem if he proves me wrong, but his issue coming in to the league was his lack of press skills.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/kenneth-acker?id=2549981

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by NorthBay49er:

Oour dbs suck

you do not know that at all in my opinion

Ok

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by dsmith_49erz:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
You think Acker starters? Why? He's a zone CB not the press man they are looking for. It's looking like (very early) Brock and Ward on the outside. I wouldn't be surprised if Acker doesn't even make the final roster in favor of Robinson.

Acker makes the team..stop it.
Just as everyone on this board, I voice my opinion. This team needs quality corners that can play, just because he's a better zone guy doesn't mean he can't cover. When was the last time we had a true press cover?
Until we can generate constant heat up front the coverage concepts goes out the window when the QB has too much time in the pocket...Acker is at least out 3rd best corner.

I'm not trying to argue with you, you can voice your opinion no problem

He probably makes the team, but I don't see him getting the snaps he got last season unless someone is injured. We haven't had a true press CB because we hadn't ran a scheme for it since before Harbs came in. Go look at O'Neil's defenses that's what he runs. That's the reason they drafted 3 CBs because some of the players we had were geared towards zone.

IMO Acker isn't at least our 3rd best CB. His coverage rank on the team last year (per PFF) was worst on the team. He was great against the run but awful in coverage.

I have no problem if he proves me wrong, but his issue coming in to the league was his lack of press skills.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/kenneth-acker?id=2549981

Robinson and Redmond will more than likely beat out Acker , they have too much potential and high ceilings to discard, Acker will definitely find work if this happens, he was baptized by fire last season against the Steelers, I'm sure that negative experience will make him work harder, and make himself an asset to some club , but Robinson and Redmond aren't late round project picks , they were brought in for a reason

Originally posted by NeeJ49er:
Robinson and Redmond will more than likely beat out Acker , they have too much potential and high ceilings to discard, Acker will definitely find work if this happens, he was baptized by fire last season against the Steelers, I'm sure that negative experience will make him work harder, and make himself an asset to some club , but Robinson and Redmond aren't late round project picks , they were brought in for a reason

I mean he probably doesn't get cut (wouldn't be surprised if he did) but Redmond was looking like a late 1st early 2nd round pick before he got hurt and Robinson was starting as a freshman at LSU (which doesn't happen) both have much much higher ceilings compared to Acker. I just feel the two rookies are a better fit for what this defense wants to run vs what Acker's skill set is.

Originally posted by yung_prophet_one:
I don't see why some worry about our defense...we're young and athletic... unproven does not mean we suck...it means they haven't had the chance to make any noise yet because they are young...this is how I see our defense this year and I LOVE our youth...I'll be honest our pass rush concerns me.. Harold is probably the biggest question mark I have and Lynch is more suited to play second fiddle to likes of a Aldon Smith but well see... Buckner will give us some rush so hopefully that would help out some..I think Johnson and Robinson will beat out the madness we have at corner and depth is nuts in that position.. definitely a strength of ours.. what do you guys think of my starters??

I like the youth and upside too...just need a bit more seasoning (consistency) and hopefully some better scheme/play-calling. As to "starting lineup" that's a bit of a non-issue, as who we play will dictate starters each week and how often we play in nickel and dime will also play a huge factor in "starter time" on the field (i.e. up to 60% of the time). So, my guestimate is that pretty much all of these guys are going to be rotated in and out a lot and my guess is that the players who get the least number of defensive snaps for the year are (not active): Cherry, Wilhoite and Acker. Guys like Ray-Ray and McCray will get plenty of snaps on ST.

Defensive Personnel - 24
RDE: DeForest Bucker; Ronald Blair
NT: Quinton Dial; Mike Purcell (Ian Williams)
LDE: Arik Armstead; Demetrius Cherry (Glenn Dorsey)
WILL: Eli Harold; Tank Carradine
SAM: Aaron Lynch; Ahmad Brooks
TED: Gerald Hodges; Michael Wilhoite
MIKE: Navarro Bowman; Ray-Ray Armstrong
RCB: Jimmie Ward; Kenneth Acker
SLOT (S/CB): Keith Reaser; Tramaine Brock (Will Redmond)
LCB: Dontae Johnson; Rashard Robinson
HYBRID SS/ILB: Jaquiski Tartt
FS: Eric Reid; L.J. McCray
SS: Antoine Bethea

Originally posted by NYniner85:
I mean he probably doesn't get cut (wouldn't be surprised if he did) but Redmond was looking like a late 1st early 2nd round pick before he got hurt and Robinson was starting as a freshman at LSU (which doesn't happen) both have much much higher ceilings compared to Acker. I just feel the two rookies are a better fit for what this defense wants to run vs what Acker's skill set is.

I see the potential in Redmond and the risk in Robinson but, Acker is healthy while Robinson isn't 100%. I like Ackers grit and I think he will only get better when we find a consistent pass rush, this applies to all of our corners....I don't care how much potential and promise they have, if our pass rush is anything like 2015, every corner will look like Rumph!!!!!!!

Originally posted by dsmith_49erz:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
I mean he probably doesn't get cut (wouldn't be surprised if he did) but Redmond was looking like a late 1st early 2nd round pick before he got hurt and Robinson was starting as a freshman at LSU (which doesn't happen) both have much much higher ceilings compared to Acker. I just feel the two rookies are a better fit for what this defense wants to run vs what Acker's skill set is.

I see the potential in Redmond and the risk in Robinson but, Acker is healthy while Robinson isn't 100%. I like Ackers grit and I think he will only get better when we find a consistent pass rush, this applies to all of our corners....I don't care how much potential and promise they have, if our pass rush is anything like 2015, every corner will look like Rumph!!!!!!!

Robinson is 100% and played all thru OTAs, are you referring to Redmond?

Agreed that pass rush is super important to the secondary, but having DBs that can actually cover will help the pass rushers have more time to get to the QB, works both ways and Acker was our worst CB last year in coverage plain and simple. He's gonna have to up his game to get snaps this year in a whole different system, which doesn't play to his skill set.

At the end of the day I just want a solid defense with whomever as the starters.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Robinson is 100% and played all thru OTAs, are you referring to Redmond?

Agreed that pass rush is super important to the secondary, but having DBs that can actually cover will help the pass rushers have more time to get to the QB, works both ways and Acker was our worst CB last year in coverage plain and simple. He's gonna have to up his game to get snaps this year in a whole different system, which doesn't play to his skill set.

At the end of the day I just want a solid defense with whomever as the starters.

Yeah, I wonder if Acker was miscast too. Mangini saw him as a zone CB but what I liked about him most in pre season was his physical play and aggressive nature and play on the ball. The new DB coach noted that some of the DB's have taken to the new challenge and others haven't. I wonder where Acker falls. Even in a complicated system, he still only gave up 2 TD's all year. That's a pretty solid rookie season for him. We have quite the competition for press CB's outside and zone defenders for nickel and dime.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
Robinson is 100% and played all thru OTAs, are you referring to Redmond?

Agreed that pass rush is super important to the secondary, but having DBs that can actually cover will help the pass rushers have more time to get to the QB, works both ways and Acker was our worst CB last year in coverage plain and simple. He's gonna have to up his game to get snaps this year in a whole different system, which doesn't play to his skill set.

At the end of the day I just want a solid defense with whomever as the starters.

Yeah, I wonder if Acker was miscast too. Mangini saw him as a zone CB but what I liked about him most in pre season was his physical play and aggressive nature and play on the ball. The new DB coach noted that some of the DB's have taken to the new challenge and others haven't. I wonder where Acker falls. Even in a complicated system, he still only gave up 2 TD's all year. That's a pretty solid rookie season for him. We have quite the competition for press CB's outside and zone defenders for nickel and dime.

That could be as well, he wasn't known for being a great press guy coming out of the draft "Average press strength. Struggled keeping phase with Texas A&M WR Mike Evans down the field and will struggle vs. the physicality of bigger receivers. Low, dive tackler." "A big, short-area, zone corner with intriguing ball skills to stick as a No. 4 or No. 5 corner and special-teams contributor."

He might have been physical but that doesn't always translate to coverage ability and his 70th overall PFF rank and worst coverage rank on the team kinda showed that.( I do give just about everyone on the team a pass based on last seasons coaching shenanigans).

Like you said maybe he was miscast. He was very solid against the run, I'm all for him upping his game and getting time on the field if it shows in training camp...just think there was a reason we drafted 3 CBs and I really like Robinson, Ward, Brock, DJ on the outside over him.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NeeJ49er:
Robinson and Redmond will more than likely beat out Acker , they have too much potential and high ceilings to discard, Acker will definitely find work if this happens, he was baptized by fire last season against the Steelers, I'm sure that negative experience will make him work harder, and make himself an asset to some club , but Robinson and Redmond aren't late round project picks , they were brought in for a reason

I mean he probably doesn't get cut (wouldn't be surprised if he did) but Redmond was looking like a late 1st early 2nd round pick before he got hurt and Robinson was starting as a freshman at LSU (which doesn't happen) both have much much higher ceilings compared to Acker. I just feel the two rookies are a better fit for what this defense wants to run vs what Acker's skill set is.

both are very aggressive CB's, and could easily be our starting CB's in a couple seasons, Acker is solid and could hold the fort down as a starter , but I don't think Acker is vital to our secondary , even though he is a talented DB, but I would rather hold on to DJ and Cromartie, after that Falcons game last year , DJ and Cro proved they can run with the better WR's and have success , and I hope Cromartie makes the team as a safety

I think it's going to be a pretty good defense, even if the rankings don't show it. There's some talent, should be solid against the run, but pass rush on the edges is concerning. It's worth noting that Kelly's defenses play more snaps per game due to the offense operating at a fast pace. It's going to be tough ranking in the Top 20 (in total yards) unless the defense is very good.

Week 1 starters will probably be:

-- Buckner and Armstead at the d-end spots. Dial starts at NT due to the injuries to Williams and Dorsey.
-- Brooks/Bowman/Hodges/Lynch are the LBs. Harold or Carradine gets the 3rd down edge rusher role.
-- Brock and Ward the starting CBs. Johnson and Robinson compete for Nickel CB duties. Ward slides to slot corner in Nickel.
-- Bethea and Reid start at Safety. Tartt comes on the field in the Dime package.

Originally posted by SofaKing:
I think it's going to be a pretty good defense, even if the rankings don't show it. There's some talent, should be solid against the run, but pass rush on the edges is concerning. It's worth noting that Kelly's defenses play more snaps per game due to the offense operating at a fast pace. It's going to be tough ranking in the Top 20 (in total yards) unless the defense is very good.

Week 1 starters will probably be:

-- Buckner and Armstead at the d-end spots. Dial starts at NT due to the injuries to Williams and Dorsey.
-- Brooks/Bowman/Hodges/Lynch are the LBs. Harold or Carradine gets the 3rd down edge rusher role.
-- Brock and Ward the starting CBs. Johnson and Robinson compete for Nickel CB duties. Ward slides to slot corner in Nickel.
-- Bethea and Reid start at Safety. Tartt comes on the field in the Dime package.

For the bolded reason, I think the "points per drive" stat could be more telling than Total Points Allowed. Chip averages the most offensive drives per game in the league, but his defense also faces more drives per game as a result (tied for 3rd most defensive drives per game).

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/drivestatsdef2015
Some have referenced a stat where the 2015 49ers defense only played about 3 more snaps per game more than the 2015 PHI defense (something like that). One important thing to note is that the 2015 49ers averaged the worst defensive "plays per drive" in the league. Meaning on a per drive basis, the 49ers defense faced the most snaps (6.28 plays/drive) - they couldn't get off the field. I've read some posters mention that the 3 snaps more per game is irrelevant, and it is, but what the 2015 49er defense was doing was very very bad (6.28 plays/drive).

Originally posted by thl408:
For the bolded reason, I think the "points per drive" stat could be more telling than Total Points Allowed. Chip averages the most offensive drives per game in the league, but his defense also faces more drives per game as a result (tied for 3rd most defensive drives per game).

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/drivestatsdef2015
Some have referenced a stat where the 2015 49ers defense only played about 3 more snaps per game more than the 2015 PHI defense (something like that). One important thing to note is that the 2015 49ers averaged the worst defensive "plays per drive" in the league. Meaning on a per drive basis, the 49ers defense faced the most snaps (6.28 plays/drive) - they couldn't get off the field. I've read some posters mention that the 3 snaps more per game is irrelevant, and it is, but what the 2015 49er defense was doing was very very bad (6.28 plays/drive).

Good point. It's stuff like this that makes me prefer the efficiency stats when evaluating how good the offense/defense really is.

As long as we're outgaining and outscoring the opponent, we should be good. Could do it by grinding out the clock Harbaugh style, or running a frantic pace like Kelly.. As long as it works, I'm all for it.

Originally posted by SofaKing:
Good point. It's stuff like this that makes me prefer the efficiency stats when evaluating how good the offense/defense really is.

As long as we're outgaining and outscoring the opponent, we should be good. Could do it by grinding out the clock Harbaugh style, or running a frantic pace like Kelly.. As long as it works, I'm all for it.

I like the efficiency stats as well, although I can understand if a person says, "all that matters is at the end of 4 quarters, how many points have they given up?". But Chip's offense isn't "normal" due to it playing more drives per game, which leads to the defense also facing more drives per game. This gives those efficiency stats more meaning because Chip's team can be considered a special case.

Week 1 starters:

LDE: Q.DIAL
NT: M.PURCELL
RDE: A.ARMSTEAD
LOLB: A.LYNCH
ILB: N.BOWMAN
ILB: M.WILHOITE
ROLB: A.BROOKS
LCB: T.BROCK
RCB: J.WARD
SS: A.BETHEA
FS: E.REID