Installing Kelly's offense

Originally posted by cmix23:

Originally posted by ChazBoner:
jed gonna make them use a white board, so they can just erase and save money.

Hahahaha

Red bird blue man Wu Wang Chip ain't nottin to F wit?

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by Sims19849ers:
I didn't see in that article where he said it's a concern and that it is much easier for the defense to figure out.

But it is. Go look at the #'s vs NFC East defenses and compare them to what he did vs NFC West defenses. Its a fairly basic offense that can be very predictable if the execution is not at a high level.


Its a scheme designed to take advantage of and create matchup issues but without the offense being able to execute with precision, you would see a lot of 3 and outs like what we saw in Philly last year.

Last year Philly did not have the right personnel for his scheme. He made horrible decisions when it came to personnel, yet they still averaged 23.6 PPG and was good for 13th. Bad Oline, a QB not fit for his system, a RB not fit for his system and a team that led the league in dropped passes. I'm sure all of that has to be figured into the struggles yet they still had a better season offensively than 19 other teams. Not bad at all. I think both Gabbert and Kap will open up his offense more than Bradford did simply because Bradford was zero threat to keep it off the zone read, making it very easy for that edge defender to crash down and create the advantage for the defense in the run game. They won't be able to do that with Gabbert or Kap...

And you'll see a ton of 3 and outs in any offense without execution...

It's going to be fun seeing how Kap takes to this offense. Too, bad - he's probably gone next year.

Originally posted by cciowa:
unlike last years fools.. i believe the coaches when they say they will use the screen pass and make the running backs a big part of things

Josh Garnett: "Did someone say screen?"

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by thl408:
I thought during the dynasty days they trotted out the same personnel and formations and ran every concept in the playbook out of the same formations, and that was what made them less predictable?

If you go back to the Walsh playbooks, the formation pages contained 80-90 different formations and personnel packages. They'd run drive for example 7-8 times a game from several different forms and groupings.

What made it less predictable was the play pass game and running game. Everything looked like the run on their action plays.

You're right. The insane verbiage of the playcalls was to describe all the different formations.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:
The big drawback to all this is that there is player testimony that in the later stages of a game, defenses are able to key onto formations and know what play they are about to see.

This NOW this an interesting point and it makes a ton of sense. Hopefully, in order for the defender to see and recognize what's coming by late in the game, it's b/c the offense has had so much success with it it's a moot point (i.e the game's already over). Or "mute" point if you aren't hearing that.

This is a matter of having enough plays ready to change formations and plays for the fourth quarter. Walsh did that with the WCO and would set up the defense by allowing them to think they understood the offense, and then wham! Different formation and totally different play. Or the same formation but a totally different concept played.

If Kelly can't do this then he will fail. If he can...no reason to suspect he won't succeed.

Originally posted by Sims19849ers:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by Sims19849ers:
I didn't see in that article where he said it's a concern and that it is much easier for the defense to figure out.

But it is. Go look at the #'s vs NFC East defenses and compare them to what he did vs NFC West defenses. Its a fairly basic offense that can be very predictable if the execution is not at a high level.


Its a scheme designed to take advantage of and create matchup issues but without the offense being able to execute with precision, you would see a lot of 3 and outs like what we saw in Philly last year.

Last year Philly did not have the right personnel for his scheme. He made horrible decisions when it came to personnel, yet they still averaged 23.6 PPG and was good for 13th. Bad Oline, a QB not fit for his system, a RB not fit for his system and a team that led the league in dropped passes. I'm sure all of that has to be figured into the struggles yet they still had a better season offensively than 19 other teams. Not bad at all. I think both Gabbert and Kap will open up his offense more than Bradford did simply because Bradford was zero threat to keep it off the zone read, making it very easy for that edge defender to crash down and create the advantage for the defense in the run game. They won't be able to do that with Gabbert or Kap...

And you'll see a ton of 3 and outs in any offense without execution...

About 3 and outs. PHI was middle of the pack in 2015 (15th least)
http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/three-and-out-percentage/2015/

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Sims19849ers:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by Sims19849ers:
I didn't see in that article where he said it's a concern and that it is much easier for the defense to figure out.

But it is. Go look at the #'s vs NFC East defenses and compare them to what he did vs NFC West defenses. Its a fairly basic offense that can be very predictable if the execution is not at a high level.


Its a scheme designed to take advantage of and create matchup issues but without the offense being able to execute with precision, you would see a lot of 3 and outs like what we saw in Philly last year.

Last year Philly did not have the right personnel for his scheme. He made horrible decisions when it came to personnel, yet they still averaged 23.6 PPG and was good for 13th. Bad Oline, a QB not fit for his system, a RB not fit for his system and a team that led the league in dropped passes. I'm sure all of that has to be figured into the struggles yet they still had a better season offensively than 19 other teams. Not bad at all. I think both Gabbert and Kap will open up his offense more than Bradford did simply because Bradford was zero threat to keep it off the zone read, making it very easy for that edge defender to crash down and create the advantage for the defense in the run game. They won't be able to do that with Gabbert or Kap...

And you'll see a ton of 3 and outs in any offense without execution...

About 3 and outs. PHI was middle of the pack in 2015 (15th least)
http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/three-and-out-percentage/2015/

Certainly not nearly as bad as some make it out to be. Packers, Redskins and Texans all were worse and all made the playoffs. Doesn't necessarily mean Philly didn't have a lot because they did but that still goes back to a lot of factors regarding personnel. It all starts up front and their Oline was not as good as his previous years. When you combat that with a RB that doesn't fit the playcalling, a QB who limits your playcalling, and pass catches leading the league in drops, it makes sense for them to have quite a few 3 and outs and a slight drop off in PPG average.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:
The big drawback to all this is that there is player testimony that in the later stages of a game, defenses are able to key onto formations and know what play they are about to see.

This NOW this an interesting point and it makes a ton of sense. Hopefully, in order for the defender to see and recognize what's coming by late in the game, it's b/c the offense has had so much success with it it's a moot point (i.e the game's already over). Or "mute" point if you aren't hearing that.

This is a matter of having enough plays ready to change formations and plays for the fourth quarter. Walsh did that with the WCO and would set up the defense by allowing them to think they understood the offense, and then wham! Different formation and totally different play. Or the same formation but a totally different concept played.

If Kelly can't do this then he will fail. If he can...no reason to suspect he won't succeed.

Yup. Like any competent offensive coach, Chip does this. This is from some earlier cutups.
Here is a play from early in the game. ATL, with SEA's old DC in town runs a lot of cover3. Below is a simple High-low read to the weakside of the formation.


RB in the flat for a nice gain.


This is later in the game. Exact same formation. But now it's two verticals.


The route combination on the weakside start off looking identical, but the RB wheels his route. Huge gain.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Sims19849ers:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by Sims19849ers:
I didn't see in that article where he said it's a concern and that it is much easier for the defense to figure out.

But it is. Go look at the #'s vs NFC East defenses and compare them to what he did vs NFC West defenses. Its a fairly basic offense that can be very predictable if the execution is not at a high level.


Its a scheme designed to take advantage of and create matchup issues but without the offense being able to execute with precision, you would see a lot of 3 and outs like what we saw in Philly last year.

Last year Philly did not have the right personnel for his scheme. He made horrible decisions when it came to personnel, yet they still averaged 23.6 PPG and was good for 13th. Bad Oline, a QB not fit for his system, a RB not fit for his system and a team that led the league in dropped passes. I'm sure all of that has to be figured into the struggles yet they still had a better season offensively than 19 other teams. Not bad at all. I think both Gabbert and Kap will open up his offense more than Bradford did simply because Bradford was zero threat to keep it off the zone read, making it very easy for that edge defender to crash down and create the advantage for the defense in the run game. They won't be able to do that with Gabbert or Kap...

And you'll see a ton of 3 and outs in any offense without execution...

About 3 and outs. PHI was middle of the pack in 2015 (15th least)
http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/three-and-out-percentage/2015/

what were they Chips first year in Philly?

Originally posted by SoCold:
what were they Chips first year in Philly?

There's a dropdown list in the top right where you can select the season.

Originally posted by SoCold:
what were they Chips first year in Philly?

5th least in 2013 http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/three-and-out-percentage/2013/

9th least in 2014 http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/three-and-out-percentage/2014/

Originally posted by thl408:
Yup. Like any competent offensive coach, Chip does this. This is from some earlier cutups.
Here is a play from early in the game. ATL, with SEA's old DC in town runs a lot of cover3. Below is a simple High-low read to the weakside of the formation.


RB in the flat for a nice gain.


This is later in the game. Exact same formation. But now it's two verticals.


The route combination on the weakside start off looking identical, but the RB wheels his route. Huge gain.

Thanks again Thl...nice examples of using plays early to bait the DBs.

Edit: this is also an area where a great QB can sell the D out of the way for his receivers. If, on the other hand, a QB gives it away...

Originally posted by BillWalshField:
"This offense, I think personally, is easy to learn, once you get it down," tight end Garrett Celek said. "There's a reason we can go so fast. It's a simple offense. Once it clicks, we can just go, go, go."

And the reason, Celek said, it is easy is because there are no longer lengthy verbal descriptions of the play calls transmitted to the quarterback, who, in the past, would relay the message to the other 10 players in the huddle. Now, there is no huddle, as all players immediately look to the sideline as the play is communicated through a variety of signals.


"The biggest thing with learning a new offense is speeding it up," Celek said. "If you have to think a lot, you're going to slow down. So once you figure everything out, everyone can move faster and make plays."

The 49ers' offensive tempo is much faster, even in practice. It's not that the 49ers are doing more running during their workouts. But there is less time between plays for a player to catch his breath.



http://www.csnbayarea.com/49ers/new-49ers-offense-leaves-players-speechless/


No more huddle every player looks to the sideline and reads hand signals and then lines up.

Celek said the big concern though. It's a simpler offense. Much easier for defenses to figure out.

Where did he say that? I missed it.

Originally posted by TexasDuck:
Where did he say that? I missed it.

He didn't. It's so easy to defend yet they Chip has averaged over 26 PPG in his three years in the NFL. Anything above 20 for us would be a drastic improvement