Niners hire Jim O'Neil as DC

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Luckycharms:

Most of the time I think Grant Cohn is talking out of his a**, but I found this part of his article very interesting. Since he's been allowed to view several practices he gets to see what kind of defense we are going to run. He basically said JoN likes using his OLb's in man to man coverage. This is what he had to say while talking about the top 5 players on our roster.

"Player values change from staff to staff depending on the styles of play the coordinators like to coach. Example: Aaron Lynch. He fit former 49ers defensive coordinator Eric Mangini's defense, so Mangini liked him. Started him in 13 of the 14 games Lynch played last season.

The new defensive coordinator, Jim O'Neil, runs a completely different scheme. He likes using outside linebackers in man-to-man coverage deep down the field, something Mangini never did. If Mangini made an outside linebacker cover a receiver, Mangini would ask him to cover a small zone near the line of scrimmage.

Lynch could handle a small zone. He cannot cover man to man. Not a fluid athlete. Needs to face the action. Should not turn his back on the quarterback.

Which means Lynch doesn't fit O'Neil's defense. And that probably is why O'Neil seems to prefer Eli Harold, a second-year outside linebacker who started only one game and recorded zero sacks as a rookie last season. But he can cover. So he grades high and Lynch probably doesn't."

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/sports/5807088-181/grant-cohn-grading-49ers-roster?artslide=4

Last season, many CLE fans were unhappy with how JoN dropped Paul Kruger, CLE's best edge rusher, into coverage so often. This has to do with how JoN likes to confuse pass protection schemes by mixing who the rushers are, and how JoN uses his Sam LB.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/10/cleveland_browns_paul_kruger_a.html
Coaches asked Kruger, who led the Browns with 11 sacks a season ago, to become more involved in pass coverage this season. The numbers bear it out. The newlywed dropped into coverage 65 times last year, according to the analytics website ProFootballFocus.com. Through three games this season (2015), the total already is 32.
......

Mangini did the same thing in terms of mixing who was the 4th rusher and we discussed it as it was happening last season, questioning why Lynch was seen dropping into coverage, although it was zone coverage. One of the benefits of a 3-4 defense is that the DC can mix up who the 4th rusher is by using any one of his 4 LBs on the field (3DL + 1 LB = 4 rushers). That said, no DC in his right mind should put a 3-4 OLB on a WR running downfield. OLBs covering RBs and TEs running downfield isn't out of the ordinary though.

What Cohn could be seeing is Lynch in man coverage, playing against Chip's offense where a RB will be asked to run routes deep downfield. Here is WAS's 3-4 OLB running downfield trying to cover McCoy. The point being Chip's RBs attack downfield and that's what Cohn might be seeing as he watches the 49ers defense practice against their offense.

Thanks for this, I was kinda confused as to why a OLB would be asked to cover a WR downfield lol. I get coverage on RB/TE and I believe I've seen lynch ask to cover a RB downfield wth success.

I'm gonna if he has Lynch in coverage more than rushing the passer...especially if he has him in man situations

Originally posted by thl408:
The point being Chip's RBs attack downfield and that's what Cohn might be seeing as he watches the 49ers defense practice against their offense.

Excellent points especially this one.

Originally posted by Allx9er:
I'm gonna if he has Lynch in coverage more than rushing the passer...especially if he has him in man situations

Agreed. Sometimes it's just better to not get cute and have the best pass rusher do what he does best. Trying to be too cute with disguising the 4th rusher can work against the defense. Bringing Bow up the gut and having both OLBs dropping into coverage might trick the OL, but if the offense picks it up, it means both OLBs are in coverage longer than they should be.

Here is a play from week 1 last season where disguising the 4th rusher and dropping both OLBs into coverage worked well.
49ers in base 3-4 with Lynch removed from the box. Notice the 4 LBs. From this picture, right before the snap, it looks as though the 4 rushers will be the 3DL + Brooks since they are the ones on the LoS.


But Brooks drops into coverage - that makes both OLBs in coverage - and it's Bow coming up the middle. This is not considered a blitz since it's 4 rushers (7 in coverage), but it confuses the OL by disguising the 4th rusher.




JoN does this as well (disguise 4th rusher), but he will play man coverage concepts on the backend, not zone like how Mangini does in this play. If the RB happens to be running a deep route, then the OLB assigned to that RB, possibly Lynch, will have to keep up.

^^ Not knowing the D&D on this play, I'm assuming it could be 1st down, since the Vikings appear to need ten yards. If my assumption is correct, we're still giving up ~4 yards on 1st down because Brooks isn't great in coverage. He carries the TE too far up the seam, and appears to hesitate and bounce for a count when he recognizes the RB exit the backfield. I think it's fair to state tat Bowman's pressure likely necessitated the early dump off to the RB, but Boman in coverage likely makes that tackle for 0-2 yards gained.

Originally posted by WRATHman44:
^^ Not knowing the D&D on this play, I'm assuming it could be 1st down, since the Vikings appear to need ten yards. If my assumption is correct, we're still giving up ~4 yards on 1st down because Brooks isn't great in coverage. He carries the TE too far up the seam, and appears to hesitate and bounce for a count when he recognizes the RB exit the backfield. I think it's fair to state tat Bowman's pressure likely necessitated the early dump off to the RB, but Boman in coverage likely makes that tackle for 0-2 yards gained.

It was 1st & 10. I posted the play here because I wanted to illustrate the disguising of the 4th rusher. When I originally cut this play up in the MIN film thread, it was because I couldn't tell what coverage was being played - and I still can't. I can see why Brooks felt like he had to carry the TE an extra split second. He had to cover for the area Bow had just vacated. It was officially marked as a gain of 3 on the play.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by WRATHman44:
^^ Not knowing the D&D on this play, I'm assuming it could be 1st down, since the Vikings appear to need ten yards. If my assumption is correct, we're still giving up ~4 yards on 1st down because Brooks isn't great in coverage. He carries the TE too far up the seam, and appears to hesitate and bounce for a count when he recognizes the RB exit the backfield. I think it's fair to state tat Bowman's pressure likely necessitated the early dump off to the RB, but Boman in coverage likely makes that tackle for 0-2 yards gained.

It was 1st & 10. I posted the play here because I wanted to illustrate the disguising of the 4th rusher. When I originally cut this play up in the MIN film thread, it was because I couldn't tell what coverage was being played - and I still can't. I can see why Brooks felt like he had to carry the TE an extra split second. He had to cover for the area Bow had just vacated. It was officially marked as a gain of 3 on the play.

That's fair. I think Willhoite was slow to drop back to the middle after handing off the out route, and that he should have been on his way to the TE if Brooks let him go on time. I don't think that's why Brooks was late. I don't think Brooks saw whether Wilhoite was there or not; I think they were both just slow.

We know that JoN has his coaching roots from Mike Pettine, who came from Rex Ryan's coaching tree, who learned from his dad, Buddy Ryan. Here are a couple of slides from Mike Pettine's coaching clinic. We won't know how similar, and what changes will appear in the 2016 49er defense, but these slides can provide a good idea of what JoN values in his scheme. The articles linked provide more insight into these coaching points.

http://buffalofambase.org/2013/04/07/inside-mike-pettines-playbook-part-one-pettines-philosophy/

From this slide, I repeatedly saw the following play out when watching CLE's film:
- Create confusion thru movement/disguise
- Pressure the offense
- Regarding "majority of learning in hands of few", I think I know what that means. As far as assignments go, playing straight up man coverage is as easy as it gets: "you got that guy, you got that guy, you got that guy...". I feel as though the majority of the learning is in the front 7 players as they play a read and react type of scheme, and have to learn the various fronts and blitz packages. So it appears easier for the DBs, and more difficult for the front 7 from an assignment point of view.
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http://buffalofambase.org/2013/04/09/inside-mike-pettines-playbook-part-two-the-3-4-as-a-personnel-group/

- This touches on all the different assignments asked out of the front 7.
- 3-4 fronts allow for a lot more creativity/disguise, which lends to, "increase offensive preparation time".

Originally posted by thl408:
We know that JoN has his coaching roots from Mike Pettine, who came from Rex Ryan's coaching tree, who learned from his dad, Buddy Ryan. Here are a couple of slides from Mike Pettine's coaching clinic. We won't know how similar, and what changes will appear in the 2016 49er defense, but these slides can provide a good idea of what JoN values in his scheme. The articles linked provide more insight into these coaching points.

http://buffalofambase.org/2013/04/07/inside-mike-pettines-playbook-part-one-pettines-philosophy/

From this slide, I repeatedly saw the following play out when watching CLE's film:
- Create confusion thru movement/disguise
- Pressure the offense
- Regarding "majority of learning in hands of few", I think I know what that means. As far as assignments go, playing straight up man coverage is as easy as it gets: "you got that guy, you got that guy, you got that guy...". I feel as though the majority of the learning is in the front 7 players as they play a read and react type of scheme, and have to learn the various fronts and blitz packages. So it appears easier for the DBs, and more difficult for the front 7 from an assignment point of view.
.
.
http://buffalofambase.org/2013/04/09/inside-mike-pettines-playbook-part-two-the-3-4-as-a-personnel-group/

- This touches on all the different assignments asked out of the front 7.
- 3-4 fronts allow for a lot more creativity/disguise, which lends to, "increase offensive preparation time".

Great stuff thl!

Knowing this, do you or others have thoughts on how the personnel may be suited? For instance, naturally, Baalke grabbed 3 "cover" CB's" in the draft for O'Neil: "you got that guy, you got that guy, you got that guy..." So who's are best cover CB's? Would this lend to a Johnson and Robinson duel...Brock and Ward or Acker? Maybe Tartt over Bethea or vice versa? I think the front 7 is pretty predictable in terms of personnel and rotation and I'm sure we'll use all of them...a lot. But it certainly seems like the front 7 is going to have to be active and smart and on the same page!

Originally posted by NCommand:
Great stuff thl!

Knowing this, do you or others have thoughts on how the personnel may be suited? For instance, naturally, Baalke grabbed 3 "cover" CB's" in the draft for O'Neil: "you got that guy, you got that guy, you got that guy..." So who's are best cover CB's? Would this lend to a Johnson and Robinson duel...Brock and Ward or Acker? Maybe Tartt over Bethea or vice versa? I think the front 7 is pretty predictable in terms of personnel and rotation and I'm sure we'll use all of them...a lot. But it certainly seems like the front 7 is going to have to be active and smart and on the same page!

I don't know anything about Robinson or Redmond. I haven't watched how Acker/Reaser played man coverage. I like Brock as a CB in man coverage from his 2013 campaign, but that was a long time ago in football years. I like DJ, but his sample size is small. It's going to be a huge battle for snaps among the CBs.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Great stuff thl!

Knowing this, do you or others have thoughts on how the personnel may be suited? For instance, naturally, Baalke grabbed 3 "cover" CB's" in the draft for O'Neil: "you got that guy, you got that guy, you got that guy..." So who's are best cover CB's? Would this lend to a Johnson and Robinson duel...Brock and Ward or Acker? Maybe Tartt over Bethea or vice versa? I think the front 7 is pretty predictable in terms of personnel and rotation and I'm sure we'll use all of them...a lot. But it certainly seems like the front 7 is going to have to be active and smart and on the same page!

I don't know anything about Robinson or Redmond. I haven't watched how Acker/Reaser played man coverage. I like Brock as a CB in man coverage from his 2013 campaign, but that was a long time ago in football years. I like DJ, but his sample size is small. It's going to be a huge battle for snaps among the CBs.

Understandable. Outside of QB, this should be the most epic competition on the field. Lots of different skill sets there, depth, growing talent, versatility, etc.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Luckycharms:
Most of the time I think Grant Cohn is talking out of his a**, but I found this part of his article very interesting. Since he's been allowed to view several practices he gets to see what kind of defense we are going to run. He basically said JoN likes using his OLb's in man to man coverage. This is what he had to say while talking about the top 5 players on our roster.

"Player values change from staff to staff depending on the styles of play the coordinators like to coach. Example: Aaron Lynch. He fit former 49ers defensive coordinator Eric Mangini's defense, so Mangini liked him. Started him in 13 of the 14 games Lynch played last season.

The new defensive coordinator, Jim O'Neil, runs a completely different scheme. He likes using outside linebackers in man-to-man coverage deep down the field, something Mangini never did. If Mangini made an outside linebacker cover a receiver, Mangini would ask him to cover a small zone near the line of scrimmage.

Lynch could handle a small zone. He cannot cover man to man. Not a fluid athlete. Needs to face the action. Should not turn his back on the quarterback.

Which means Lynch doesn't fit O'Neil's defense. And that probably is why O'Neil seems to prefer Eli Harold, a second-year outside linebacker who started only one game and recorded zero sacks as a rookie last season. But he can cover. So he grades high and Lynch probably doesn't."

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/sports/5807088-181/grant-cohn-grading-49ers-roster?artslide=4

Last season, many CLE fans were unhappy with how JoN dropped Paul Kruger, CLE's best edge rusher, into coverage so often. This has to do with how JoN likes to confuse pass protection schemes by mixing who the rushers are, and how JoN uses his Sam LB.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/10/cleveland_browns_paul_kruger_a.html
Coaches asked Kruger, who led the Browns with 11 sacks a season ago, to become more involved in pass coverage this season. The numbers bear it out. The newlywed dropped into coverage 65 times last year, according to the analytics website ProFootballFocus.com. Through three games this season (2015), the total already is 32.
......

Mangini did the same thing in terms of mixing who was the 4th rusher and we discussed it as it was happening last season, questioning why Lynch was seen dropping into coverage, although it was zone coverage. One of the benefits of a 3-4 defense is that the DC can mix up who the 4th rusher is by using any one of his 4 LBs on the field (3DL + 1 LB = 4 rushers). That said, no DC in his right mind should put a 3-4 OLB on a WR running downfield. OLBs covering RBs and TEs running downfield isn't out of the ordinary though.

What Cohn could be seeing is Lynch in man coverage, playing against Chip's offense where a RB will be asked to run routes deep downfield. Here is WAS's 3-4 OLB running downfield trying to cover McCoy. The point being Chip's RBs attack downfield and that's what Cohn might be seeing as he watches the 49ers defense practice against their offense.

Thanks for this, I was kinda confused as to why a OLB would be asked to cover a WR downfield lol. I get coverage on RB/TE and I believe I've seen lynch ask to cover a RB downfield wth success.

IM NOT SURE i've seen Lynch cover a back with success .. U sure??

Originally posted by thl408:

I don't know anything about Robinson or Redmond. I haven't watched how Acker/Reaser played man coverage. I like Brock as a CB in man coverage from his 2013 campaign, but that was a long time ago in football years. I like DJ, but his sample size is small. It's going to be a huge battle for snaps among the CBs.

Acker seemed to stick with his man but was often a half step behind...experience should help him in man.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by thl408:

I don't know anything about Robinson or Redmond. I haven't watched how Acker/Reaser played man coverage. I like Brock as a CB in man coverage from his 2013 campaign, but that was a long time ago in football years. I like DJ, but his sample size is small. It's going to be a huge battle for snaps among the CBs.

Acker seemed to stick with his man but was often a half step behind...experience should help him in man.

That's true. Nobody is, talking up Acker but wasn't he one of the more physically aggressive CB's last off-season? And if we're going to play more man, he too might be right in the hunt.

Originally posted by 9moon:
IM NOT SURE i've seen Lynch cover a back with success .. U sure??

I can only recall one time where it was downfield. Looked good here, but 6'6 defenders aren't made to cover.