2016 Team Information (Needs)

All good points. My list was to reconstitute the 2 lines. The rest...that is secondary to getting our core lines rebuilt.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

All good points. My list was to reconstitute the 2 lines. The rest...that is secondary to getting our core lines rebuilt.

You're right, it all starts in the trenches!

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
All good points. My list was to reconstitute the 2 lines. The rest...that is secondary to getting our core lines rebuilt.

You're right, it all starts in the trenches!

Thanks for your lists! Wish I knew what kind of defense O'Neil was likely to use. Does he value a true NT? Shut down corners? At least we know that they desperately need a pass rush, so that is a given no matter the defensive scheme.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

All good points. My list was to reconstitute the 2 lines. The rest...that is secondary to getting our core lines rebuilt.

You're right, it all starts in the trenches!

Thanks for your lists! Wish I knew what kind of defense O'Neil was likely to use. Does he value a true NT? Shut down corners? At least we know that they desperately need a pass rush, so that is a given no matter the defensive scheme.

My pleasure. The boys over in the O'Neil thread may help. But the first guy we looked at at the Senior Bowl was a wide-bodied NT. So pure 2 gapper. So Knighton or Harrison but Williams would be a nice sign as well especially b/c he's a team captain.

IIRC Thl noted he runs more man but pattern matching again. This requires more cerebral CB's and that's a system Brock got his contact under. I wound guess Acker would be a good fit as well. But Chip likes long CB's so a guy like Sean Smith and Dontae Johnson or even Cromartie would be ideal.

With more patten matching (off coverage), that means Hodges and Bowman won't be spot dropping as much...more traditional TED (defensive fullback) and MIKE (playmaker) roles which means good things.

Standard 1 and 2 gapping for the DL.

In theory, he's a combination of Fangio (pattern matching with no blitzing and press snap confusion) and Mangini (more man, pre and post snap looks and more blitzing than Fangio).

So we need pass rushers, of course, but we might get more coverage sacks more too. More INT's.

Originally posted by NCommand:
My pleasure. The boys over in the O'Neil thread may help. But the first guy we looked at at the Senior Bowl was a wide-bodied NT. So pure 2 gapper. So Knighton or Harrison but Williams would be a nice sign as well especially b/c he's a team captain.

IIRC Thl noted he runs more man but pattern matching again. This requires more cerebral CB's and that's a system Brock got his contact under. I wound guess Acker would be a good fit as well. But Chip likes long CB's so a guy like Sean Smith and Dontae Johnson or even Cromartie would be ideal.

With more patten matching (off coverage), that means Hodges and Bowman won't be spot dropping as much...more traditional TED (defensive fullback) and MIKE (playmaker) roles which means good things.

Standard 1 and 2 gapping for the DL.

In theory, he's a combination of Fangio (pattern matching with no blitzing and press snap confusion) and Mangini (more man, pre and post snap looks and more blitzing than Fangio).

So we need pass rushers, of course, but we might get more coverage sacks more too. More INT's.

Bowman showed really good blitzing ability last year so I expect that to continue. Hodges did OK. I would like to see move Safety blitzes as well. One of my favorite things about Mangini was his willingness to send people from anywhere.

Sakamoto's list of five FAs the niners should target:

DT Ian Williams, 26, 9ers
DE Wilkerson, 26, Jets
OT Schwartz, 26, Browns
ILB Laurinaidis, 29, Rams (FA cut)
CB Jenkins, 27, Rams

Wouldn't that be a great haul!

I would add a center but would be fine if the team was able to sign these guys!

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Sakamoto's list of five FAs the niners should target:

DT Ian Williams, 26, 9ers
DE Wilkerson, 26, Jets
OT Schwartz, 26, Browns
ILB Laurinaidis, 29, Rams (FA cut)
CB Jenkins, 27, Rams

Wouldn't that be a great haul!

I would add a center but would be fine if the team was able to sign these guys!

Not a bad target list although, the two Ram's players would be push-starters/depth with a license to become starters to start the season.

On defense, here would be my Plan A & B targets and C targets (role-players/depth/push starters) with the obvious idea that we're looking for veteran leaders and "impact players" first and foremost especially at key defensive spots such as WILL, RDE, NT, CB & ILB (let me know if I screwed any of these up or should edit players into different plan levels --- AB, let me know if I need to adjust pay scales as I started with your higher end FA's and guessed after that for the Plan B & C FA's):

WILL/Edge Rusher: (Age - H/W)
Plan A: Courtney Upshaw (26 - 6'2" 272) or 36 Bruce Irvin (28 - 6'3" 260) or 56 Greg Hardy (27 - 6'5" 280) – AB noted that this group, or the top performers in this group will command a deal similar to Pernell McPhee from 2015, which was $38.75M, average of $7.75M a year. These are proven edge rushing starters. Hardy is a risk at both a position switch and character but his skill set is not in question. This means the range for these players is probably in the $6M-$8M average range.

Plan B: 64 Nick Perry (25 - 6'3" 265) or 75 Junior Galette (27 - 6'2" 258) or Frank Zombo (28 - 6'3" 254) or 42 Derrick Shelby (26 - 6'2" 280) – These are productive bridge-players that can help mentor Carradine/Harold and anyone else we draft and could become every-down players in our 3-4; think Dan Skuta with the chance to grow into quality starters. Shelby would have to drop a few pounds. This means the range for these players is probably in the $5M-$6M average range.

Plan C: Tamba Hali (32 - 6'3" 275) or 20 Robert Ayers (30 - 6'3" 275) or 32 William Hayes (30 - 6'3" 278) or 73 Jeremy Mincey (32 - 6'4" 280) – These older pass rush FA's have panned out well in recent years for playoff teams because they get a fresh start elsewhere and because they still have something to prove. This is a pattern we've been seeing for years now. They add rotational pass rush to complement the base down starters; not costly either and all will just have to lose a few pounds and work on their specialty roles. This means the range for these types of players is probably in the < $5M average range.

RDE:
Plan A: 4 Muhammad Wilkerson (26 - 6'4" 315) – Over $100M, $19M per year with nearly $60M fully guaranteed ($15.5M tag). You do everything you can to lock him up. This means the range for this player is probably in the $19M average range.

Plan B: 9 Malik Jackson (26 - 6'5" 293) or 39 Jaye Howard (27 - 6'3" 301) or 6 Jason Pierre-Paul (27 - 6'5" 278) or 22 Nick Fairley (28 - 6'4" 308) – These players can project well to the RDE position in our 3-4 either as every down players or key rotational players (i.e. add key pass rush from here). Something similar to Derek Wolfe's deal, which is 4yr/$36.7M, or an average of $9.175M per year. This means the range for these players is probably in the $8-9M+ average range.

Plan C: 70 Jason Jones (29 - 6'5" 275) or 71 Mike DeVito (31 - 6'3" 305) or Mario Williams (31 - 6'6" 292) – Experience in the 3-4 and veteran presence. This means the range for these players is probably in the < $5M+ average range.

NT:
Plan A: 17 Damon Harrison (27 - 6'4" 350) or 66 Terrance Knighton (29 - 6'3" 354) or 49 Ian Williams (26 - 6'1" 305) – Chip seems to cherish the bigger, wide-bodied NT's but for as much as the defense is on the field, we need a rotation and beef inside against power running teams (our weakness). So it would be greatly served to have both a 2-gapper and 1-gapper here. This may mean we consider signing 2 NT's here. Probably gets $5M a year, maybe $6M or $4.5M a year, on a 3 year deal. This means the range for these players is probably in the $4.5M-6M average range. Spotrac.com sees a 4-year, $30 million deal for Williams. That seems very high to me.

Plan B: 50 Akiem Hicks (26 - 6'5" 324) or 61 Haloti Ngata (32 - 6'4" 345) or Cedric Thornton (27 - 6'4" 309) – Nice Plan B mix of players here. This means the range for these players is probably in the < $4M average range.

CB:
Plan A: 13 CB Sean Smith (28 - 6'3" 218) – Smith got a $5.5M a yr deal before, he won't go lower than that on another deal IMO. A deal like Buster Skrine ($25M, $6.25M average) or and Alterraun Verner ($25.5M, $6.25M average). There are some "length" CB's in this class that Chip seems to covet. This means the range for this player is probably in the $6.25M+ average range.

Plan B: 24 Casey Hayward (26 - 5'11" 192) or 40 Trumaine Johnson (26 - 6'2" 208) or Jerraud Powers (28 - 5'10" 187) – A deal like Cortez Allen ($24.6M, $6.15M average) or Davon House ($24.5M, $6.125M average). This means the range for these players are probably in the $6.15M+ average range.

Plan C: 43 Prince Amukamara (26 - 6'0" 207) or 45 Mark Barron (26 - 6'1" 214) or 58 Brandon Boykin (25 - 5'10" 182) 41 Janoris Jenkins (27 - 5'10" 198) or 46 Patrick Robinson (28 - 5'11" 191) or 52 Walter Thurmond (28 - 5'11" 190) or Mo Claiborne (26 - 5'11" 192) or 37 Adam Jones (32 - 5'10" 180) or 53 Leon Hall (31 - 5'11" 195) – A wide variety of CB's here with nickel and dime and slot roles, off-coverage starters, press, man, experience, etc. This means the range for these players are probably in the $3M-5.5M+ average range.

ILB:
Plan A: 14 Danny Trevathan (25 - 6'1" 240) or 47 Rolando McClain (26 - 6'4" 255) – I feel he asks for a $5M a year deal, or even higher, something along the lines of Paul Posluszny ($15M, $5M average), Rey Maualuga, Stephen Tulloch, etc. ($15M, $5M average). Chances are, Hodges looks even better this year under a better scheme (more Fangio-like) and with a full off season to prepare. He was learning the 3-4 and still was #1 or #2 in tackles each game alternating with Bowman under Mangini's non-ILB-friendly defense. But both of these players could mean an instant upgrade. This means the range for this player is probably in the $5M+ average range.

Plan B: Brandon Marshall (26 - 6'1" 250) or 30 Jerrell Freeman (29 - 6'0" 240) or Demario Davis (27 - 6'2" 239) or Keenan Robinson (26 - 6'3" 238) or Tahir Whitehead (25 - 6'2" 242) – We need depth that is stronger than Wilhoite and who can add some ST ability. This means the range for these players is probably in the $4M average range.

Plan C: 21 Derrick Johnson (33 - 6'3" 242) – We've had 36 players end the year on I.R. the past two years. This means the range for this player is probably in the < $4 average range.

NC--my preference would be to pick up young FAs who can grow with the team. So the guys on you list that I would target would be--

ILB--Trevathan or Marshall (both young and upcoming--Marshall's best year, but injury concern for Trevathan)
OLB--Upshaw (kind of a developmental hope) or Hardy (if the coaches believe they can keep him in line)
DL--Wilkerson or Jackson (Wilkerson might be franchised so Jackson would be more likely)

Edit: Denver can't franchise everyone so teams will try to pick off their players. With Manning setting sail other players may be interested in moving on as well.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
NC--my preference would be to pick up young FAs who can grow with the team. So the guys on you list that I would target would be--

ILB--Trevathan or Marshall (both young and upcoming--Marshall's best year, but injury concern for Trevathan)
OLB--Upshaw (kind of a developmental hope) or Hardy (if the coaches believe they can keep him in line)
DL--Wilkerson or Jackson (Wilkerson might be franchised so Jackson would be more likely)

Me too! You'll see most of the older players I listed are in that Plan C bucket but many of them had great years last year (according to PFF, of course).

And yeah, most are in the 26 age range...which is great...like when we acquired Torrey Smith. The irony is that on our team, they'd be "veterans" when on other teams, those would be young FA's. Ha

PS: As with Denver, same concept for the Jets and Carolina and Seattle. They won't be able to keep everyone as they have some big time players to target in-house. So no doubt, some of these players will be more than excited to hit FA and find out their own market.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
NC--my preference would be to pick up young FAs who can grow with the team. So the guys on you list that I would target would be--

ILB--Trevathan or Marshall (both young and upcoming--Marshall's best year, but injury concern for Trevathan)
OLB--Upshaw (kind of a developmental hope) or Hardy (if the coaches believe they can keep him in line)
DL--Wilkerson or Jackson (Wilkerson might be franchised so Jackson would be more likely)

Me too! You'll see most of the older players I listed are in that Plan C bucket but many of them had great years last year (according to PFF, of course).

And yeah, most are in the 26 age range...which is great...like when we acquired Torrey Smith. The irony is that on our team, they'd be "veterans" when on other teams, those would be young FA's. Ha

PS: As with Denver, same concept for the Jets and Carolina and Seattle. They won't be able to keep everyone as they have some big time players to target in-house. So no doubt, some of these players will be more than excited to hit FA and find out their own market.

LOL...almost any FA is going to come in as the oldest guy on their unit, which is why I'd be careful with guys like Hardy. Can't afford to bring in a dunderhead with a young team. Kind of like picking up T Owens as a vet WR...yikes!

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
LOL...almost any FA is going to come in as the oldest guy on their unit, which is why I'd be careful with guys like Hardy. Can't afford to bring in a dunderhead with a young team. Kind of like picking up T Owens as a vet WR...yikes!

That's a very quality point. In the past, I'd have no issues bringing him in b/c of the blue collar high character veteran leadership we already had in the locker room. Now? Not so much UNLESS Chip can quickly establish that kind of environment that helps keep players in check and preaches high character and leadership. I know our youth has a lot of former leaders in college. Eventually, that's going to pay off. I know Bowman and others have alluded to these high character youngsters who work very hard and care about their professional careers; quality teammates.

Originally posted by NCommand:
That's a very quality point. In the past, I'd have no issues bringing him in b/c of the blue collar high character veteran leadership we already had in the locker room. Now? Not so much UNLESS Chip can quickly establish that kind of environment that helps keep players in check and preaches high character and leadership. I know our youth has a lot of former leaders in college. Eventually, that's going to pay off. I know Bowman and others have alluded to these high character youngsters who work very hard and care about their professional careers; quality teammates.

Absolutely!

Warm up the helicopter

Originally posted by ChaunceyGardner:
Warm up the helicopter

Maybe a fleet!

Originally posted by NCommand:
My pleasure. The boys over in the O'Neil thread may help. But the first guy we looked at at the Senior Bowl was a wide-bodied NT. So pure 2 gapper. So Knighton or Harrison but Williams would be a nice sign as well especially b/c he's a team captain.

IIRC Thl noted he runs more man but pattern matching again. This requires more cerebral CB's and that's a system Brock got his contact under. I wound guess Acker would be a good fit as well. But Chip likes long CB's so a guy like Sean Smith and Dontae Johnson or even Cromartie would be ideal.

With more patten matching (off coverage), that means Hodges and Bowman won't be spot dropping as much...more traditional TED (defensive fullback) and MIKE (playmaker) roles which means good things.

Standard 1 and 2 gapping for the DL.

In theory, he's a combination of Fangio (pattern matching with no blitzing and press snap confusion) and Mangini (more man, pre and post snap looks and more blitzing than Fangio).

So we need pass rushers, of course, but we might get more coverage sacks more too. More INT's.

In 2015, CLE seemed to pattern match with their LBs, not so much their CBs. I'll show this later in the offseason. I don't know if that was dictated by scheme, or (lack of ) skill level of the players. Hard to explain with words, but the level of complexity in the pattern match scheme is not near what Fangio was doing.

From what I've seen, JoN is like Mangini in that he presents various defensive fronts and is not shy to blitz. He is like Fangio in that he will pattern match, and is primarily man coverage (Mangini was primarily zone).

As far a team needs, this puts more emphasis on man coverage CBs, especially if JoN doesn't implement a better pattern match scheme than what I've been seeing. There are plenty of occasions where the CBs were manned up and getting picked off (rubbed) because they weren't pattern matching.