Zone blocking scheme

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by theninermaniac:
Are yall kidding about Looney? He has looked awful in every meaningful snap he's played. He will be lucky to have a roster spot next season.

I thought he looked pretty good early on when he was playing for Boone.

It seems to me that you can't really know how these guys will adjust to a new system unless they have played in a similar system in college or another NFL team. So the fact that many came from zone schemes in college is meaningful. Boone looked terrible this year but might adjust very well to LT as NC suggests.

A couple of things I'd like the niners do:

• make all positons more equitable (emphasis on MORE), which zone blocking allows.
• cross train and use linemen in at least two positions during training camp so injuries will impact the offense less.
• evaluate the linemen quickly and make changes where necessary...early in camp.
• draft a couple of linemen that fit zone blocking in the middle rounds...guys who are smart and tenacious.

I can't help but think Baalke has planned for this already by his selections of MMartin and Brandon Thomas. Then he snags a RB that came from a ZBS in college (Hyde). Baalke knows he has an athletic C already on the roster in Kilgore. Since Kilgore showed he can hold his own, perhaps Kilgore plays C and MMartin slides to RG? The two Tackle spots are locked in long term. Boone, I am so turned off by his performance this season that it's affected how I view him going forward. I have to admit that. Hopefully BThomas and MMartin snag both the starting Guard positions.

Originally posted by thl408:
I can't help but think Baalke has planned for this already by his selections of MMartin and Brandon Thomas. Then he snags a RB that came from a ZBS in college (Hyde). Baalke knows he has an athletic C already on the roster in Kilgore. Since Kilgore showed he can hold his own, perhaps Kilgore plays C and MMartin slides to RG? The two Tackle spots are locked in long term. Boone, I am so turned off by his performance this season that it's affected how I view him going forward. I have to admit that. Hopefully BThomas and MMartin snag both the starting Guard positions.

If Baalke was thinking of ZBS when he went for Martin, Thomas and Hyde, that implies that he thought there was a possibility that Harbaugh would be gone as far back as early in 2014. Ratto reported before the season that Harbaugh was gone after the season and Madden just thought he was flat-out crazy. About a month ago, Madden said that he might owe Ratto an apology and that maybe he was right although Madden still couldn't understand the whole thing.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by theninermaniac:
Are yall kidding about Looney? He has looked awful in every meaningful snap he's played. He will be lucky to have a roster spot next season.

I thought he looked pretty good early on when he was playing for Boone.

It seems to me that you can't really know how these guys will adjust to a new system unless they have played in a similar system in college or another NFL team. So the fact that many came from zone schemes in college is meaningful. Boone looked terrible this year but might adjust very well to LT as NC suggests.

A couple of things I'd like the niners do:

• make all positons more equitable (emphasis on MORE), which zone blocking allows.
• cross train and use linemen in at least two positions during training camp so injuries will impact the offense less.
• evaluate the linemen quickly and make changes where necessary...early in camp.
• draft a couple of linemen that fit zone blocking in the middle rounds...guys who are smart and tenacious.

I can't help but think Baalke has planned for this already by his selections of MMartin and Brandon Thomas. Then he snags a RB that came from a ZBS in college (Hyde). Baalke knows he has an athletic C already on the roster in Kilgore. Since Kilgore showed he can hold his own, perhaps Kilgore plays C and MMartin slides to RG? The two Tackle spots are locked in long term. Boone, I am so turned off by his performance this season that it's affected how I view him going forward. I have to admit that. Hopefully BThomas and MMartin snag both the starting Guard positions.

I think Baalke is doing his best to HELP build the best roster. He didn't do it alone and in spite of what many believe (and this isn't directed at you), Harbaugh and many others had sizable influence on this roster. Unfortunately, for the 49ers and Harbaugh, it ultimately did not appear ANYTHING outside of a singular belief had influence over the offense.

Originally posted by thl408:
I can't help but think Baalke has planned for this already by his selections of MMartin and Brandon Thomas. Then he snags a RB that came from a ZBS in college (Hyde). Baalke knows he has an athletic C already on the roster in Kilgore. Since Kilgore showed he can hold his own, perhaps Kilgore plays C and MMartin slides to RG? The two Tackle spots are locked in long term. Boone, I am so turned off by his performance this season that it's affected how I view him going forward. I have to admit that. Hopefully BThomas and MMartin snag both the starting Guard positions.

Yes, but this is interesting fodder for the rumor mill! LOL..."See, he knew Harbaugh was gone a year ago!"

I like NC's line: Boone/Thomas/Kilgore/MMartin or Davis/Staley

If Boone continues to flounder then Staley stays where he is and they look for a RT in the draft or FAcy...or both.

It was so depressing to read the PFF rating where Iupati was among the best OGs, but way down the list of pass protectors...shows the bias toward power blocking.

Originally posted by JayT:
How difficult will it be for the Niners Oline to transition to the zone blocking scheme? What players fit and which don't?

We ran a zone blocking scheme under Norv Turner, then again when we introduced the Pistol offense under Harbaugh. Gore had a career year under Turner and surprised everyone running out of the pistol. It shouldn't be very hard at all.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by thl408:
One other thing to ZBS is that it helps the playaction game much more. For a defender, it's harder to tell if a play is a run play or playaction when the offense is known as a team that is predominantly ZBS. This is why on all packaged plays, the Oline is zone blocking. You see Peyton and RW do this all the time as they fake the stretch play (outside zone), they show the ball to the RB, the entire Oline flows one direction like a normal outside zone run play, then the QB pulls it back and it's playaction. To the defenders, everything looks like a outside zone run play, until the last second when the QB pulls the ball back and completes his dropback.

For a team using playaction that is known as a power blocking team, if the defenders don't see the Oline fire upfield or don't see a guard pulling, it can alert the defenders that it is playaction based on how the Oline is not quickly firing upfield like how they would on a normal power blocking run play.

Yes, and might explain why many QBs seem to have more success with playaction than the niners do. One key is to have formation and stances look the same for many different plays...keeping the defense from being able to read cues. I know many complained on the zone about that over the past few years. It does take a coachable group of players though.

Great insight guys. My biggest reason for wanting the ZBS is the lethal play-action bootlegs you can run off it. Move the launch point for Kap so not everything has to be a straight drop back. He's at his best playing on the move, so let him move. Before this year he was one of the most effective play-action QBs in the league. We have lineman who fit the scheme, we have the running backs, and we have the mobile, strong-armed quarterback. I think the offense could experience a similar turnaround to what the Ravens did this year if applied correctly.

Originally posted by SofaKing:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by thl408:
One other thing to ZBS is that it helps the playaction game much more. For a defender, it's harder to tell if a play is a run play or playaction when the offense is known as a team that is predominantly ZBS. This is why on all packaged plays, the Oline is zone blocking. You see Peyton and RW do this all the time as they fake the stretch play (outside zone), they show the ball to the RB, the entire Oline flows one direction like a normal outside zone run play, then the QB pulls it back and it's playaction. To the defenders, everything looks like a outside zone run play, until the last second when the QB pulls the ball back and completes his dropback.

For a team using playaction that is known as a power blocking team, if the defenders don't see the Oline fire upfield or don't see a guard pulling, it can alert the defenders that it is playaction based on how the Oline is not quickly firing upfield like how they would on a normal power blocking run play.

Yes, and might explain why many QBs seem to have more success with playaction than the niners do. One key is to have formation and stances look the same for many different plays...keeping the defense from being able to read cues. I know many complained on the zone about that over the past few years. It does take a coachable group of players though.

Great insight guys. My biggest reason for wanting the ZBS is the lethal play-action bootlegs you can run off it. Move the launch point for Kap so not everything has to be a straight drop back. He's at his best playing on the move, so let him move. Before this year he was one of the most effective play-action QBs in the league. We have lineman who fit the scheme, we have the running backs, and we have the mobile, strong-armed quarterback. I think the offense could experience a similar turnaround to what the Ravens did this year if applied correctly.

Zone Blocking does jack with the DE / PR ability to establish a rush lane pre-snap. It forces them to modify their attack point on the fly, which is good for an offensive line that is having difficulty pass protecting. But again, it also isn't that easy because it requires the neighboring offensive linemen to do what the scheme / zone requires; if there's a laps, the qb or rb is not going to be happy.

Originally posted by 16for6:
We ran a zone blocking scheme under Norv Turner, then again when we introduced the Pistol offense under Harbaugh. Gore had a career year under Turner and surprised everyone running out of the pistol. It shouldn't be very hard at all.

Its hard to run it well. Lots of teams run it, not many do it really well. I think this is why it would be so huge to get Kubiak as a coach because he's got an absurd amount of experience in it, plus he's got a direct line to Alex Gibbs who has forgotten more about the particular scheme than most will ever know.

Its easier to find OL guys in later rounds because the typical traits that are looked at in top offensive lineman....aren't necessarily vital in a zone blocking scheme. The importance is placed higher on foot quickness and cerebral ability than height, weight, strength....etc. Tom Nalen was a 7th round pick, very ordinary looking prospect coming out of the draft and he ended up being an consistent All Pro playing in that scheme.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by 16for6:
We ran a zone blocking scheme under Norv Turner, then again when we introduced the Pistol offense under Harbaugh. Gore had a career year under Turner and surprised everyone running out of the pistol. It shouldn't be very hard at all.

Its hard to run it well. Lots of teams run it, not many do it really well. I think this is why it would be so huge to get Kubiak as a coach because he's got an absurd amount of experience in it, plus he's got a direct line to Alex Gibbs who has forgotten more about the particular scheme than most will ever know.

Its easier to find OL guys in later rounds because the typical traits that are looked at in top offensive lineman....aren't necessarily vital in a zone blocking scheme. The importance is placed higher on foot quickness and cerebral ability than height, weight, strength....etc. Tom Nalen was a 7th round pick, very ordinary looking prospect coming out of the draft and he ended up being an consistent All Pro playing in that scheme.

Awesome!!!! I commented on this VERY BIG advantage earlier. The zone is harder to learn but you don't need to find guys with those rare physical traits... the guys that go in early rounds. You just have to find guys that have the ability to learn the system and nimble enough to run it.

Originally posted by 16for6:

Originally posted by JayT:
How difficult will it be for the Niners Oline to transition to the zone blocking scheme? What players fit and which don't?

We ran a zone blocking scheme under Norv Turner, then again when we introduced the Pistol offense under Harbaugh. Gore had a career year under Turner and surprised everyone running out of the pistol. It shouldn't be very hard at all.

I'm fairly certain that Norv used a power blocking scheme here in SF. He has everywhere else he's gone.

Originally posted by thl408:
I'm fairly certain that Norv used a power blocking scheme here in SF. He has everywhere else he's gone.

Correct - just like with the Cowboys in the 90's.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by 16for6:

Originally posted by JayT:
How difficult will it be for the Niners Oline to transition to the zone blocking scheme? What players fit and which don't?

We ran a zone blocking scheme under Norv Turner, then again when we introduced the Pistol offense under Harbaugh. Gore had a career year under Turner and surprised everyone running out of the pistol. It shouldn't be very hard at all.

I'm fairly certain that Norv used a power blocking scheme here in SF. He has everywhere else he's gone.

You're correct. He kinda started his career with the Cowboys... and those guys were NOT zone blocking... or slightly capable of zone blocking.

Didn't the 49ers also have Larry Allen when Turner was here??? I'm not sure... I'll look it up.

Originally posted by Geeked:
Zone Blocking does jack with the DE / PR ability to establish a rush lane pre-snap. It forces them to modify their attack point on the fly, which is good for an offensive line that is having difficulty pass protecting. But again, it also isn't that easy because it requires the neighboring offensive linemen to do what the scheme / zone requires; if there's a laps, the qb or rb is not going to be happy.

Agree, and I also don't think it's coincidence that the Ravens went from allowing 48 sacks in 2013, to just 19 sacks in 2014 with many of the same players after moving to ZBS. I think Kap could do some big damage with the extra space he'll get to throw or run off these bootlegs. Way less predictable then dropping straight back again and again. Given Kap's skill set, he should be on the move as much as possible. Give him a scheme that highlights his skills. I guarantee there is no way he's sacked 52 times again next year, not even close, IF we make the right changes.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by 16for6:
We ran a zone blocking scheme under Norv Turner, then again when we introduced the Pistol offense under Harbaugh. Gore had a career year under Turner and surprised everyone running out of the pistol. It shouldn't be very hard at all.

Its hard to run it well. Lots of teams run it, not many do it really well. I think this is why it would be so huge to get Kubiak as a coach because he's got an absurd amount of experience in it, plus he's got a direct line to Alex Gibbs who has forgotten more about the particular scheme than most will ever know.

Its easier to find OL guys in later rounds because the typical traits that are looked at in top offensive lineman....aren't necessarily vital in a zone blocking scheme. The importance is placed higher on foot quickness and cerebral ability than height, weight, strength....etc. Tom Nalen was a 7th round pick, very ordinary looking prospect coming out of the draft and he ended up being an consistent All Pro playing in that scheme.

Shanahan... zone blocking WCO straight from the (late) glory days...

Originally posted by Geeked:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by 16for6:

Originally posted by JayT:
How difficult will it be for the Niners Oline to transition to the zone blocking scheme? What players fit and which don't?

We ran a zone blocking scheme under Norv Turner, then again when we introduced the Pistol offense under Harbaugh. Gore had a career year under Turner and surprised everyone running out of the pistol. It shouldn't be very hard at all.

I'm fairly certain that Norv used a power blocking scheme here in SF. He has everywhere else he's gone.

You're correct. He kinda started his career with the Cowboys... and those guys were NOT zone blocking... or slightly capable of zone blocking.

Didn't the 49ers also have Larry Allen when Turner was here??? I'm not sure... I'll look it up.

Yea. I think you guys are right. But we did use zone blocking under Raye and Solari. Wasn't Martz a zone blocking guy?