What were the philosophical differences between Jed and Harbaugh?

Originally posted by Quest4six:

It had to be between Baalke and Harbs,
If that was the case then I am glad York picked Baalke

You and york are gonna regret it

I think those that have watched the 49ers through the decades also understand that the West Coast Offense has changed with the times.

At first -- under Walsh -- the WCO was "pass to set up the run." It was inventive. But it was also very basic. The goal was to throw opposing defenses off guard through how the team lined up at the LOS to specific movements to convince linebackers to turn one way when they should have turned the other. The 49ers won a majority of their games under the basic Walsh WCO because nobody had ever seen it before and Walsh teams executed it flawlessly.

But later -- as defenses came to adapt to what Walsh was doing -- Walsh had to change the concept. By the time Jerry Rice arrived? The 49ers, under Walsh, transitioned into a WCO that lived by the pass. They didn't give up on the run entirely. You still had to have that threat in the backfield. But by 1987, the WCO that Walsh was running looked vastly different from the WCO he brought to the team in 1979.

Now -- go back to Harbaugh's first year at the helm. I saw a lot of that 1981 playbook. The 49ers, with Alex Smith, were running plays that I hadn't seen run for two decades. Better yet? It was successful.

But it didn't take defenses long to adapt to what the 49ers were doing. Case in point, by the end of the Harbaugh era, the strongest running play wasn't just the trap with the guard pulling, it was the ONLY effective running play the team could run. Worse yet? Neither Harbaugh nor Roman could advance beyond the basic WCO skills that Walsh at first used -- and then discarded as defenses caught up to what he was doing.

In other words? Walsh adapted. Harbaugh could not. CK7's best passes downfield came on broken plays where he was forced to run for his life before spotting a receiver downfield. His first target was rarely open because opposing defenses knew what was coming.

Jim Harbaugh was a student of the WCO. But he wasn't a teacher. He wasn't an innovator. And the lack of those qualities eventually did him in.

Originally posted by DVDA:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by DVDA:
Jed wants a high flying offense. Harbaugh wants to play defense and run the ball. It's clear from this year that Harbaugh and his staff couldn't put together a spread offense like Jed wants. The smart hire right now would be Kubiak but I guarantee Jed gets Gase or McDouchebag.

If you truly believe this, then you need to jump on the Fire Baalke Train. A GM needs to know who he is hiring when he makes his HC hire. If Baalke thought he was going to get a "high flying offense" when he hired Jim, then Baalke is a dumbass.

Did I say that is what they were looking for when they hired him? This is what they are looking for now. They want a "Bill Walsh type." The "difference in philosophy" to me is a pass first vs run first issue. We watched the 49ers attempt to spread things out all season and fail even though everyone knew they needed to run the ball like they have over the past three years. My theory is management tried to force Harbaugh to modernize his offense and become explosive which he wasn't capable of doing.

Gotcha. Point still stands that Baalke should and probably did know what he was getting with Jim - power run first. If Jed is mad that Jim isn't pass first, Jed should look at Baalke and ask, "Why did you hire this guy? He's not pass first. I told you I wanted a Bill Walsh type."

I don't think this is the case.

I agree with the underlined.

Originally posted by 9moon:
It all came down to the fact that Harbaugh only wants to be left alone when it's coaching time... all he wants is for the upper management to try and get him his request, and let him be the coach..

But ever since Baalke had it out with Fangio in regards to the "young capable back ups" as Baalke would say, Harbaugh just doesn't like the idea of anybody else outside his coaches to get in the way.

Baalke brought in Mangini against Harbaugh's will. Jim didn't think that Mangini is really much needed to the position or title that was given to him.

Baalke traded the young Taylor Mays because he never wanted to draft him, and it was Singletary who lobbied for the GM to draft Mays. Harbaugh felt that Mays was still young and full of potential, but Baalke just didn't see it that way so he traded him..

Harbaugh often is being force to keep players that Baalke either had signed via free agent or have drafted. Harbaugh was against the singing of an aging Lloyd because he felt that he already had Patton.. Baalke, trying not to tarnish his image, forced the issue that Patton can wait and better off learning from the sideline so that he can justify the signing of Lloyd and not make his singing bonus a waste.

By the end of time, Harbaugh's had it with the upper management, and coached the 2014 season based on Baalke's philosphy.. and this is the same reason why Harbaugh did not bother replacing Roman and basically showed the 49ers organization how the team would be like if he isn't allow to coach the way he wants to.

Harbaugh knows that the 49ers need him more than we need him. He sat a standard so high that the next coach must produce a Super Bowl appearance or everyone would wonder why we bothered to "change ways"..

Uhh what? Where did you ever hear any of this? The GM's job is to build the team. The coach's job is to coach the players he has.

Originally posted by billbird2111:
I think those that have watched the 49ers through the decades also understand that the West Coast Offense has changed with the times.

At first -- under Walsh -- the WCO was "pass to set up the run." It was inventive. But it was also very basic. The goal was to throw opposing defenses off guard through how the team lined up at the LOS to specific movements to convince linebackers to turn one way when they should have turned the other. The 49ers won a majority of their games under the basic Walsh WCO because nobody had ever seen it before and Walsh teams executed it flawlessly.

But later -- as defenses came to adapt to what Walsh was doing -- Walsh had to change the concept. By the time Jerry Rice arrived? The 49ers, under Walsh, transitioned into a WCO that lived by the pass. They didn't give up on the run entirely. You still had to have that threat in the backfield. But by 1987, the WCO that Walsh was running looked vastly different from the WCO he brought to the team in 1979.

Now -- go back to Harbaugh's first year at the helm. I saw a lot of that 1981 playbook. The 49ers, with Alex Smith, were running plays that I hadn't seen run for two decades. Better yet? It was successful.

But it didn't take defenses long to adapt to what the 49ers were doing. Case in point, by the end of the Harbaugh era, the strongest running play wasn't just the trap with the guard pulling, it was the ONLY effective running play the team could run. Worse yet? Neither Harbaugh nor Roman could advance beyond the basic WCO skills that Walsh at first used -- and then discarded as defenses caught up to what he was doing.

In other words? Walsh adapted. Harbaugh could not. CK7's best passes downfield came on broken plays where he was forced to run for his life before spotting a receiver downfield. His first target was rarely open because opposing defenses knew what was coming.

Jim Harbaugh was a student of the WCO. But he wasn't a teacher. He wasn't an innovator. And the lack of those qualities eventually did him in.

Absolutely terrific post!

Originally posted by Disp:

Originally posted by 9erReign:

Originally posted by DVDA:
Jed wants a high flying offense. Harbaugh wants to play defense and run the ball. It's clear from this year that Harbaugh and his staff couldn't put together a spread offense like Jed wants. The smart hire right now would be Kubiak but I guarantee Jed gets Gase or McDouchebag.

This. Last game was pretty telling. After being shown the door Harbs and Roman showed what their ideal offense and game would look like.

Well we don't know who it was that put the reigns on Kaepernick and forced him to stay in the pocket, but I would guess it's more the coaches than the GM. This offense is extremely talented, and I think we got a good glimpse of what it can be over the last 2 games (which was more like the late 2012 offense). I really hope the next coaching staff that comes in runs it more like those games. Less pre-snap gimmick crap, and more of letting Kaepernick do his thing and spreading the defense out.

The offense was designed by Harbaugh/Roman to be primarily a 1 or 2 read system, with everyone else blocking and keeping Kaep in the pocket.

My reasons why Jed and Trent want the 5-wide NE type of offense that we unsuccessfully had during the year:

• Trent shopped for the groceries: you don't acquire this many WR's to cook a dinner for Gore. It was for Kap
• Jim and Roman's history is run-based. They failed at trying to do it Trent's way because that's just not what they believe a successful offense should be (there's the philosophical difference)
• 2nd half adjustments: coaches who get to run the offense they want know how to adjust that offense in the second half. These guys were applying someone else's idea which means they are not the masters of that idea.
• Teacher: I think Trent and Jed realized Jim and Roman are not offensive gurus when they showed they were not successful deviating from their run-based offense. This pretty much sealed the deal and Trent realized Jim is not their coach of the future because he simply cannot adjust to their talent like other OC's can.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by billbird2111:
I think those that have watched the 49ers through the decades also understand that the West Coast Offense has changed with the times.

At first -- under Walsh -- the WCO was "pass to set up the run." It was inventive. But it was also very basic. The goal was to throw opposing defenses off guard through how the team lined up at the LOS to specific movements to convince linebackers to turn one way when they should have turned the other. The 49ers won a majority of their games under the basic Walsh WCO because nobody had ever seen it before and Walsh teams executed it flawlessly.

But later -- as defenses came to adapt to what Walsh was doing -- Walsh had to change the concept. By the time Jerry Rice arrived? The 49ers, under Walsh, transitioned into a WCO that lived by the pass. They didn't give up on the run entirely. You still had to have that threat in the backfield. But by 1987, the WCO that Walsh was running looked vastly different from the WCO he brought to the team in 1979.

Now -- go back to Harbaugh's first year at the helm. I saw a lot of that 1981 playbook. The 49ers, with Alex Smith, were running plays that I hadn't seen run for two decades. Better yet? It was successful.

But it didn't take defenses long to adapt to what the 49ers were doing. Case in point, by the end of the Harbaugh era, the strongest running play wasn't just the trap with the guard pulling, it was the ONLY effective running play the team could run. Worse yet? Neither Harbaugh nor Roman could advance beyond the basic WCO skills that Walsh at first used -- and then discarded as defenses caught up to what he was doing.

In other words? Walsh adapted. Harbaugh could not. CK7's best passes downfield came on broken plays where he was forced to run for his life before spotting a receiver downfield. His first target was rarely open because opposing defenses knew what was coming.

Jim Harbaugh was a student of the WCO. But he wasn't a teacher. He wasn't an innovator. And the lack of those qualities eventually did him in.

Absolutely terrific post!

Well lets be fair... No other coaches were innovative enough to put as much time in considering what plays were sent into the QB as Harbaugh's coaching team.

It was all over the webzone for the last 4 years...

... as for your personal philosophy in regards to GM building the team while coach should be coaching.. .. just what do you think Harbaugh has been doing for the last 4 years??? He's coached the team that was dealt to him until he can no longer take the cards that is being given to him and yet to produce even more.... He's coached the 49ers and knows what is lacking, but yet, behind closed doors, Baalke just wont give Harbaugh the necessary tools..

It's like getting money to buy a Ferrari, only to find out that the money given to you is for Kia's only.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by DVDA:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by DVDA:
Jed wants a high flying offense. Harbaugh wants to play defense and run the ball. It's clear from this year that Harbaugh and his staff couldn't put together a spread offense like Jed wants. The smart hire right now would be Kubiak but I guarantee Jed gets Gase or McDouchebag.

If you truly believe this, then you need to jump on the Fire Baalke Train. A GM needs to know who he is hiring when he makes his HC hire. If Baalke thought he was going to get a "high flying offense" when he hired Jim, then Baalke is a dumbass.

Did I say that is what they were looking for when they hired him? This is what they are looking for now. They want a "Bill Walsh type." The "difference in philosophy" to me is a pass first vs run first issue. We watched the 49ers attempt to spread things out all season and fail even though everyone knew they needed to run the ball like they have over the past three years. My theory is management tried to force Harbaugh to modernize his offense and become explosive which he wasn't capable of doing.

Gotcha. Point still stands that Baalke should and probably did know what he was getting with Jim - power run first. If Jed is mad that Jim isn't pass first, Jed should look at Baalke and ask, "Why did you hire this guy? He's not pass first. I told you I wanted a Bill Walsh type."

I don't think this is the case.

I agree with the underlined.

The franchise was a joke when they hired Harbaugh. Offensive philosophy was less important than finding the guy who would turn things around and return the 49ers to a respectable level.

Originally posted by billbird2111:
I think those that have watched the 49ers through the decades also understand that the West Coast Offense has changed with the times.

At first -- under Walsh -- the WCO was "pass to set up the run." It was inventive. But it was also very basic. The goal was to throw opposing defenses off guard through how the team lined up at the LOS to specific movements to convince linebackers to turn one way when they should have turned the other. The 49ers won a majority of their games under the basic Walsh WCO because nobody had ever seen it before and Walsh teams executed it flawlessly.

But later -- as defenses came to adapt to what Walsh was doing -- Walsh had to change the concept. By the time Jerry Rice arrived? The 49ers, under Walsh, transitioned into a WCO that lived by the pass. They didn't give up on the run entirely. You still had to have that threat in the backfield. But by 1987, the WCO that Walsh was running looked vastly different from the WCO he brought to the team in 1979.

Now -- go back to Harbaugh's first year at the helm. I saw a lot of that 1981 playbook. The 49ers, with Alex Smith, were running plays that I hadn't seen run for two decades. Better yet? It was successful.

But it didn't take defenses long to adapt to what the 49ers were doing. Case in point, by the end of the Harbaugh era, the strongest running play wasn't just the trap with the guard pulling, it was the ONLY effective running play the team could run. Worse yet? Neither Harbaugh nor Roman could advance beyond the basic WCO skills that Walsh at first used -- and then discarded as defenses caught up to what he was doing.

In other words? Walsh adapted. Harbaugh could not. CK7's best passes downfield came on broken plays where he was forced to run for his life before spotting a receiver downfield. His first target was rarely open because opposing defenses knew what was coming.

Jim Harbaugh was a student of the WCO. But he wasn't a teacher. He wasn't an innovator. And the lack of those qualities eventually did him in.

Unfortunately this truth is getting lost with all the BS.

Jim was the best coach the 49ers have had since at least Mariucci, but with an inability to adjust he had clearly hit his ceiling here. We can only hope the FO is able to bring in an offensive-minded coach who has the good traits Jim has and the good traits Jim doesn't.

Originally posted by 9moon:
It all came down to the fact that Harbaugh only wants to be left alone when it's coaching time... all he wants is for the upper management to try and get him his request, and let him be the coach..

But ever since Baalke had it out with Fangio in regards to the "young capable back ups" as Baalke would say, Harbaugh just doesn't like the idea of anybody else outside his coaches to get in the way.

Baalke brought in Mangini against Harbaugh's will. Jim didn't think that Mangini is really much needed to the position or title that was given to him.

Baalke traded the young Taylor Mays because he never wanted to draft him, and it was Singletary who lobbied for the GM to draft Mays. Harbaugh felt that Mays was still young and full of potential, but Baalke just didn't see it that way so he traded him..

Harbaugh often is being force to keep players that Baalke either had signed via free agent or have drafted. Harbaugh was against the singing of an aging Lloyd because he felt that he already had Patton.. Baalke, trying not to tarnish his image, forced the issue that Patton can wait and better off learning from the sideline so that he can justify the signing of Lloyd and not make his singing bonus a waste.

By the end of time, Harbaugh's had it with the upper management, and coached the 2014 season based on Baalke's philosphy.. and this is the same reason why Harbaugh did not bother replacing Roman and basically showed the 49ers organization how the team would be like if he isn't allow to coach the way he wants to.

Harbaugh knows that the 49ers need him more than we need him. He sat a standard so high that the next coach must produce a Super Bowl appearance or everyone would wonder why we bothered to "change ways"..

Trent reiterated in the press conference that the two of them never had issues with players or personnel. HE didn't elaborate if they had other issues, but he made it clear that him and HArbaugh never had issues over the players. Not sure where you are deriving this argument.

Originally posted by DVDA:
The franchise was a joke when they hired Harbaugh. Offensive philosophy was less important than finding the guy who would turn things around and return the 49ers to a respectable level.

Was it really a joke or just a team that hit rock bottom after having to clean house due to salary cap. Nolan and his crew came on and we slowly began building through the draft. Then Nolan played out his time with the players and the talent was pretty much here. So we go with a "player's" coach to simply things for the immense talent that we had. Lesson learned that we need more technical knowledge and we dished out some good money for a very strong coaching staff.

Jim took over a very talented team and brought some "new" things that would provide success. What happened next is that his knowledge maxed out because he was not teach and build an offense around a QB. He is much better at building an offense around a strong OL and strong RB.

Personally, without Fangio, JH would have failed a long time ago.

For the first time, I'm now truly convinced this was about Roman. Here's a transcript from today...

What were [the philosophical differences]?

JY: Those are personal conversations. Those are not things we're going to talk about.

So was it football philosophy or personal philosophy?

JY: Football philosophy.

So does it get back to how the offense was performing? Is that what you're talking about?

JY: I told you I'm not to go into specific details. This isn't about do I like somebody's personality, do I not like somebody's personality. I think I understand that there are high levels of tension when you get into sports. That's absolutely par for the course. That's what you deal with. What we're trying to figure out is how do we continue to improve? How do we continue to get better?

So you will continue to leave it behind closed doors. You don't want to address those specifically?

JY: I realize that that's a lame answer. I realize that fans – they want every single detail. I understand that you want every single detail. But I respect the conversation that I had with Jim behind closed doors. I respect the fact that there are many people involved about those discussions. And not just those people, but their families. I am not going to throw those people under the bus. I am not going to throw Jim under the bus. I respect him too much. I respect what he did for the San Francisco 49ers too much to appease the crowd today to talk about something that he I said was going to remain behind closed doors.

This is the most York has revealed. Note that he says "other people involved in those discussions". This strongly hints to me that the beef with Baalke / York was with Roman, or possibly multiple offensive coaches in particular. For a long time, people have insisted that Harbaugh has remained loyal to Roman, and I'm now inclined to agree with them.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by DVDA:
The franchise was a joke when they hired Harbaugh. Offensive philosophy was less important than finding the guy who would turn things around and return the 49ers to a respectable level.

Was it really a joke or just a team that hit rock bottom after having to clean house due to salary cap. Nolan and his crew came on and we slowly began building through the draft. Then Nolan played out his time with the players and the talent was pretty much here. So we go with a "player's" coach to simply things for the immense talent that we had. Lesson learned that we need more technical knowledge and we dished out some good money for a very strong coaching staff.

Jim took over a very talented team and brought some "new" things that would provide success. What happened next is that his knowledge maxed out because he was not teach and build an offense around a QB. He is much better at building an offense around a strong OL and strong RB.

Personally, without Fangio, JH would have failed a long time ago.

Which has me wondering about the seriousness of the search and would partially explain why I'm not seeing his name on other teams lists.

Originally posted by 9moon:
It was all over the webzone for the last 4 years...

... as for your personal philosophy in regards to GM building the team while coach should be coaching.. .. just what do you think Harbaugh has been doing for the last 4 years??? He's coached the team that was dealt to him until he can no longer take the cards that is being given to him and yet to produce even more.... He's coached the 49ers and knows what is lacking, but yet, behind closed doors, Baalke just wont give Harbaugh the necessary tools..

It's like getting money to buy a Ferrari, only to find out that the money given to you is for Kia's only.

We have one of the most talented teams in the league.