If Jim Harbaugh leaves, who do you want as the next coach of the 49ers(All Coaching Rumors

Originally posted by 9erTilDeath:

What's with all the old coaches? Maybe we should look Into Dick Vermeil? How bout Ditka? Who knows.. Maybe Singletary deserves a second shot..

None of the guys you mentioned are in the same class as the two (holmgren&shanny) that are mainly mentioned.

Also Dick vermeil is the poster child for return after a decade and a half layoff and winning a title with the Rams no less.

only old dude im down with is holmgren. i want new blood tho. no retreads, lets find the next...jim harbaugh. oh, wait... we have a coach!!!

Greg Roman

Doesn't matter. We will lose next year if Harbs is gone.

Originally posted by NinerGM:
Wasn't this the prediction when Baalke fired Singelterry? I mean many people predicted gloom and doom. Just sayin.

And when they let Manny Lawson and Nate Clements and Takeo Spikes go...........errrybody at that time was like the dude from Aliens.

I'd love to hire Holmgren, but what is he, 66?

Originally posted by mayo49:
I'd love to hire Holmgren, but what is he, 66?

pete carroll's b***h ass is 63 and he just won a superbowl. holmgren has been chillin for a couple years so he should be good to go and unlike shanahan he doesnt have an idiot son as a handcuff offensive coordinator. id be down if were gonna go with an established coach.

Originally posted by hondakillerzx:
pete carroll's b***h ass is 63 and he just won a superbowl. holmgren has been chillin for a couple years so he should be good to go and unlike shanahan he doesnt have an idiot son as a handcuff offensive coordinator. id be down if were gonna go with an established coach.

Yeah, I forgot Pete was in his 60's. I think Jed would love either Holmgren or Shanahan, if he goes the old fart route.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Jd925:
Hey he made the Superbowl in 2005.. that's not that long ago. I agree 66 is getting up there in age, but I think his wisdom will make up for it. Harbaugh's youthful spirit will remain with team, and the old man of the mountains will take us to the promised land. He spoke with Oakland and he's itching to get back it seems.

Holmgren is the highest up on the Bill Walsh tree and I would rank him higher up than George Seifert because he was the OC during the last Walsh championship years. He's the direct disciple of the highest of highness. The Genius.


Last 20 Seasons of Superbowl Champions.

1994 Seifert - Bill Walsh Tree
1995 Jimmy Johnson - His own tree
1996 Holmgren - Bill Walsh Tree
1997 Shanahan - Bill Walsh Tree
1998 Shanahan - Bill Walsh Tree
1999 Dick Vermeil - His own tree (Made Superbowl in 1980 w/ Eagles vs Raiders)
2000 Brian Billick - Bill Walsh Tree (under Dennis Green)
2001 Bill Belichick* - Parcells Tree
2002 Jon Gruden - Bill Walsh Tree (under Paul Hackett)
2003 Bill Belichick* - Parcells Tree
2004 Bill Belichick* - Parcells Tree
2005 Bill Cowher (under Schottenheimer.... Beat Holmgren - Bill Walsh Tree)
2006 Tony Dungy - Bill Walsh Tree (under Dennis Green)
2007 Mike Tomlin - Bill Walsh Tree (under Childress/Dungy.. also under Cowher)
2008 Tom Coughlin - Parcells Tree
2009 Sean Payton - Parcells Tree
2010 Mike McCarthy - Bill Walsh Tree (under Paul Hackett)
2011 Tom Coughlin - Parcells Tree
2012 John Harbaugh - Bill Walsh Tree (under Andy Reid)
2013 Pete Carroll - Bill Walsh Tree (under George Seifert)

Note*: Belichick used Walsh's: The Winning Edge as the Bible after the nuclear winter of his failed stint in Cleveland.

It seems Superbowls grow on trees....

Great post!

Another reason for trolls to hate and say dumb things like "living in the past" ... most likely because they have a weak history. Cawk trolls can't (though they try) deny the 49er history / past because they were irrelevant until Holmgren / cheaty petey (under Bill Walsh tree)

Originally posted by hondakillerzx:

Originally posted by mayo49:
I'd love to hire Holmgren, but what is he, 66?

pete carroll's b***h ass is 63 and he just won a superbowl. holmgren has been chillin for a couple years so he should be good to go and unlike shanahan he doesnt have an idiot son as a handcuff offensive coordinator. id be down if were gonna go with an established coach.

I'm starting to warm up to the (Holmgren) idea again... as long as he is just the HC and nothing else

Oh yeah let me be clear, I'd only entertain the possibility of Holmgren as HC only, no GM role. That's Baalke's baby

Looking at the current draft order, it looks like we'll be picking in the 15-18 range. I'd love to swap places in the first round with the Faiders if they decide to trade for Harbaugh. Oakland should be picking in the 5th spot area and that'd be the perfect spot to snag WR Amari Cooper. I would definitely cream my pants if it played out that way.

Originally posted by LVJay:
I'm starting to warm up to the (Holmgren) idea again... as long as he is just the HC and nothing else

Plus the few Seahawks fans that actually existed prior to 2012 would be mad as FUUUUUUUUU about seeing Holmgren on the 49ers sidelines.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by LVJay:

I'm starting to warm up to the (Holmgren) idea again... as long as he is just the HC and nothing else

Plus the few Seahawks fans that actually existed prior to 2012 would be mad as FUUUUUUUUU about seeing Holmgren on the 49ers sidelines.

The only thing that would scare me about Holmgren is that history has shown that no coach has ever won a SB with two teams. Holmgren would be that guy that can definitely clean up the offense and clean up fundamentals, though. He makes QBs better. If he made Hasselbeck look good, he can make Kap a stud.

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Jd925:
Hey he made the Superbowl in 2005.. that's not that long ago. I agree 66 is getting up there in age, but I think his wisdom will make up for it. Harbaugh's youthful spirit will remain with team, and the old man of the mountains will take us to the promised land. He spoke with Oakland and he's itching to get back it seems.

Holmgren is the highest up on the Bill Walsh tree and I would rank him higher up than George Seifert because he was the OC during the last Walsh championship years. He's the direct disciple of the highest of highness. The Genius.


Last 20 Seasons of Superbowl Champions.

1994 Seifert - Bill Walsh Tree
1995 Jimmy Johnson - His own tree
1996 Holmgren - Bill Walsh Tree
1997 Shanahan - Bill Walsh Tree
1998 Shanahan - Bill Walsh Tree
1999 Dick Vermeil - His own tree (Made Superbowl in 1980 w/ Eagles vs Raiders)
2000 Brian Billick - Bill Walsh Tree (under Dennis Green)
2001 Bill Belichick* - Parcells Tree
2002 Jon Gruden - Bill Walsh Tree (under Paul Hackett)
2003 Bill Belichick* - Parcells Tree
2004 Bill Belichick* - Parcells Tree
2005 Bill Cowher (under Schottenheimer.... Beat Holmgren - Bill Walsh Tree)
2006 Tony Dungy - Bill Walsh Tree (under Dennis Green)
2007 Mike Tomlin - Bill Walsh Tree (under Childress/Dungy.. also under Cowher)
2008 Tom Coughlin - Parcells Tree
2009 Sean Payton - Parcells Tree
2010 Mike McCarthy - Bill Walsh Tree (under Paul Hackett)
2011 Tom Coughlin - Parcells Tree
2012 John Harbaugh - Bill Walsh Tree (under Andy Reid)
2013 Pete Carroll - Bill Walsh Tree (under George Seifert)

Note*: Belichick used Walsh's: The Winning Edge as the Bible after the nuclear winter of his failed stint in Cleveland.

It seems Superbowls grow on trees....

Great post!

In all honesty, the WCO is why I love football. I think those tend to knock it and say it won't work fail to realize its core concepts and staple plays are still run by pretty much every team in the league. I think what they get stuck on is thinking the WCO is a group of formations. That is not the case. Of course it would be difficult operating in today's nfl running a majority of the time from split/near/far form in base personnel groupings. IMO, the WCO in 2014 is what gb and McCarthy are doing. Backs are very much involved in the passing game, and they do a great job of running multi WCO concepts within the spread looks. For example they will come out in an empty look 3x2 and run a spot concept on the trip/bunch side and run something like a smash of the twins side.

I'm very much open to the idea of either one of our historic OCs taking over if Harbs is in deed gone. Holmgren is a mastermind and the fact that WCO concepts still shred defenses in 2014, I have very little doubt he could adapt his offense. Hell he ran no shot as a OC with and a HC with gb, but by the end of his Seattle tenure he had installed a gun package. I also don't think age is a factor, it more of a want to with him.

However, my dream sceniro would be keep Harbs and getting morringwheg in to run the offense. It's the best of both worlds.

Great to hear. Yeah most modern offenses incorporate many elements of the WCO. I think at the very broadest level it's more a philosophy of using the entire field (horizontally) and finding space between defenders in the shorter/medium pass game to efficiently move the ball... Then there are the schemes/concepts/routes/play-calling to accomplish that... and then the rhythm/execution/timing...... so a lot of the concepts you mention came out of trying to accomplish an efficient pass-control offense.

McCarthy's offense is rooted in the WCO, but it's probably a very modern version because he seems to attack a lot deeper.. I should analyze their offense some day.. the passes to the running back are more like checkdowns and screens (I have Lacy on my FF League so I recall some plays) and I like watching Aaron Rodgers play. Shanahan's WCO also attacked deeper when Walsh left.

I don't think Harbaugh understands the WCO or the philosophy. He may use some route combinations that are similar, but his & Roman's whole system is anti-WCO so I think Harbaugh fell far from the Walsh tree. HaRoman have done well with unique run game concepts with the read-option and that was the main part of success the last couple years.

Walsh's WCO really used the HB/FB as receivers.

Yeah Walsh never used the shotgun.. because I think it was prone to too many errors on the snap, but modern offenses have been pretty efficient...however you also lose the consistency of ball placement in the QB's hands and I think even that makes a difference in creating a very precise and efficient system.

BTW thanks for introducing these concepts... I remember the chart you showed me on that 'other' thread. I like looking them up to understand them... so the Spot concept was a staple of Walsh, but I rarely see it used these days the way Walsh did. I see the guy Jim Light describe it in his blog when I google 'spot concept'. He explains how Brady & Manning used it, but those are terrible examples. The Manning toss is just a basic pick play, and the Brady toss didn't involve any read to the concept side. Is every triangular read or route design called spot these days? That differs from how I see the WCO diagrams. The Snag route is also a triangular read anyways.... Walsh's diagrams for spot plays I've seen are tosses to the HB with two reads. (He may have used the term for other plays..dunno.. this is new to me.)

Spot/Snag/Y-Stick: Walsh's Pass Game to HB/FB (These are all out of 20 Personnel groupings)

The way I see Walsh's WCO is that the primary reads on spot plays are always the HB/FB toss. The second read by the split-end is a 5yd shallow cross and a turn-in... the corner route is the Alert route (not a read, but can take it when defense gives it)...It's an extremely simple two-read design you can pretty much use over and over again. Mostly it would go to the HB, and secondly the split end for the 5 yder...

A snag concept would be a similar to the spot with the HB running a flat with a 10yd corner route from the slot receiver to keep a high-low concept against the corner. Primary read again is the HB and second is the slot receiver on the corner and the snag route (5yd slant) is the 3rd.

The Y-Stick is a primary read to the FB who motions to an empty backfield behind the slot receiver and runs a flat..the slot has a 5yd corner. It's basically 2 reads between the full back flat route and 5yd corner route from slot receiver. The flanker is option 3 with a 6-8yd slant in the middle of the field...sometimes the HB is split out as a WR to run a clear out to the concept side.

I rarely see HB/FB tosses as primary reads in any modern offense... that's why we rarely see what Roger Craig did with 1000yds Rushing/1000yds Receiving and usually getting 400-600+ yds Receiving per season. Even Rathman consistently had 300+ receiving yds and had 600+ one year.

Spot/Snag/Y-Stick
http://saturdaynitelites.wordpress.com/2011/06/24/snag-spot-and-y-stick/

I don't see why you can't try these Walsh concepts in the modern NFL....what is old can become new again right?