NY Giants coaches film analysis

Originally posted by NCommand:

thl...can you place that Chiefs route in here so everyone can see it side-by-side.

Notice the little cross to start the route and the sense of urgency off the LOS by the decoy and how he pulls the defender (who bites) away from the primary target...the pump fake by Alex to the decoy to hold the defender while he completes the pass to that space, the distance between the routes, the perfect timing of it, etc. It didn't even need to be an anticipation throw.

Now, watch ours. Slow, prodding, uninspired, super close together, etc. It took Crabtree 15 minutes just to get there. The design is very similar but doesn't inspire much overall.

My comment was general. It's a "meh" design but overall, more of a general feel for many of our passing routes as sin and 49AllTheTime noted above as well. It's the little things and you typically cover many of these.

Now if folks wants to watch a great drive with diversity, mix, forcing a defense off balance, using the width of the field, ending with a TD, sequence of play calling, etc. go watch the first series of the Chiefs/Hawks game.

However, the concept did what it was suppose to. It's job is to hold the slot DB and open up the skinny/post/dig. SJ settles in an almost box out mode. The difference between KC and ours was KC went 3x2 and we went 2x2 and then flared out gore.

This is a huge shanahan at Denver/kubiak play/concept. I bet you Andre Johnson would get 30-40 catches a year in this concept.

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by NCommand:
thl...can you place that Chiefs route in here so everyone can see it side-by-side.

Notice the little cross to start the route and the sense of urgency off the LOS by the decoy and how he pulls the defender (who bites) away from the primary target...the pump fake by Alex to the decoy to hold the defender while he completes the pass to that space, the distance between the routes, the perfect timing of it, etc. It didn't even need to be an anticipation throw.

Now, watch ours. Slow, prodding, uninspired, super close together, etc. It took Crabtree 15 minutes just to get there. The design is very similar but doesn't inspire much overall.

My comment was general. It's a "meh" design but overall, more of a general feel for many of our passing routes as sin and 49AllTheTime noted above as well. It's the little things and you typically cover many of these.

Now if folks wants to watch a great drive with diversity, mix, forcing a defense off balance, using the width of the field, ending with a TD, sequence of play calling, etc. go watch the first series of the Chiefs/Hawks game.

However, the concept did what it was suppose to. It's job is to hold the slot DB and open up the skinny/post/dig. SJ settles in an almost box out mode. The difference between KC and ours was KC went 3x2 and we went 2x2 and then flared out gore.

This is a huge shanahan at Denver/kubiak play/concept. I bet you Andre Johnson would get 30-40 catches a year in this concept.

This is true and they used their TE as the primary target and we used Crabtree. The design was fine...I wouldn't put that on HaRoman so much as Morton needs to kick these guys in the ass and sell that. Even Johnson's man wasn't that fooled and even had a chance underneath had it not been perfectly thrown in anticipation. This is an OK design, poorly run and forced CK to throw an anticipation throw when he probably shouldn't have had too if properly run/sold and the OL held up. But it was 3rd down so heat is coming. Also, IIRC, I liked the design in the Chiefs game more b/c of the series of calls leading up to that point. IIRC, they were hitting us on the edges and sidelines and then fake outside and hit us across the middle of the field. So, context. But don't "quote" me on that...even though...you literally could do that in here. Haha

the sense of urgency to score was less game planned this game then to the plan for the saints...because we had to score vs the saints.

Why cant the coaches play with that same urgency for all teams

Originally posted by NCommand:

This is true and they used their TE as the primary target and we used Crabtree. The design was fine...I wouldn't put that on HaRoman so much as Morton needs to kick these guys in the ass and sell that. Even Johnson's man wasn't that fooled and even had a chance underneath had it not been perfectly thrown in anticipation. This is an OK design, poorly run and forced CK to throw an anticipation throw when he probably shouldn't have had too if properly run/sold and the OL held up. But it was 3rd down so heat is coming. Also, IIRC, I liked the design in the Chiefs game more b/c of the series of calls leading up to that point. IIRC, they were hitting us on the edges and sidelines and then fake outside and hit us across the middle of the field. So, context. But don't "quote" me on that...even though...you literally could do that in here. Haha

Generally on this concept, to hit the skinny/post/dig it is an anticipation throw. You are eyeing that window once that slot db is occupied. This was an excellent throw by kap and I think he hit his play again on the long Td to crabs. That slot guy really can play this concept two ways-that is slow play it like SJ to keep vert stretch or angle it out a bit like KC. I imagine KC angled it a bit because they didn't have flAre route like we did with gore. The little angle helps give a little horizontal stretch like the flare route is designed to do.

It's a great concept because if the defense tries to exclusively take the skinny away now the slot guys is left all alone.

Originally posted by JAR93:
I don't know if my opinion will mean anything to anyone but here are my thoughts on Kap and on coach Greg Roman...

With regards to Kap and leadership: I do agree somewhat with what Jonnydel said regarding Kap and his leadership. I have myself at times wished that he would become the guy who would get upset and demand perfection from his teammates when they make mistakes and rally them when they seem to be down but I also know that for all my wishes it just isn't Kap's personality to be that way. He isn't the guy who is going to yell as his O-line on the sidelines when they give up 8 sacks, he's the guy that is going to brush it off and say he needs to do his job better and that the team as a whole needs to execute better. He isn't the guy that is going to get mad at his receivers for dropping 8 passes in a game, he's the guy who's going to justify their dropped passes by saying they have tough jobs to make catches against good coverage and so drops are going to happen and that he needs to throw better passes. Kap isn't the guy that is going to criticize those who aren't perfect around him because in his mind he has never been perfect, he makes mistakes, so he has no business criticizing his teammates for making mistakes when he does so himself. Kap also isn't Patrick Willis, he isn't the giving good speeches, lead his team into the battlefield type leader, he is the guy who believes that his job is to lead by example. So, he shows up early everyday and stays late to set an example. He puts a tremendous amount of time into his preparation because that to him is important to performing well. Kap isn't the critical, talkative leader type and I've come to respect that about him. He has his own way of leading and so long as his teammates respect him and listen to him that is fine by me. I know that if Kap says something those around him on offense will listen, as Boone said before: "Kap says go out there and block correctly, 'We say yes boss' and we go out there and block correctly".

I don't think that the offense needs better leadership, Kap's been the same leader since he got the job and the offense had no problem scoring when he first got the job and they didn't really have the problems they are facing now in terms of scoring last year. I think what the offense needs as a whole is better execution from the players. For me, that is what it really all boils down to for the most part; lack of execution has led to what can currently be viewed as an inept offense. I don't know that I blame the coaching staff as much as others seem to, because really when I watch the film I generally see good play calls and terrible mistakes in execution. It's why so many games this season are often a tale of two halves. One that consists of an efficient offense and one that consists of an inept offense. Did the coaches all of a sudden toss out all that was working and completely change the game plan? No. The players just failed to execute to the levels they did in the first half. Take the Saints game as an example. The 49ers scored 21 points in the first half and failed to really score anything in the second half and in OT, Did the coaches go away from what was working? Not really, but the plays that were well executed in the first half were not well executed in the second. Receivers started dropping passes, people missed blocks in the running game, and things like that. A coach can dial up the best play to beat a defensive scheme but if the players fail to execute that play, it simply won't work. A prime example of that is a read option play that Roman called against the Giants. The Seahawks gave the Giants fits with the Read option the week before so Roman dialed one up in the red zone and it was a great play and it would have netted a TD had Stevie executed his block correctly. Stevie didn't block correctly and the play was blown up for a 7 yard loss. From the outside, your asking what kind of a play call was that? But when you watch the film, it wasn't a bad call at all, and had each player executed it like they did in practice it would have netted a TD.

I don't believe that Roman is totally without fault because I will admit that I hated his game plan against the Rams when the O-line gave up 8 sacks. But to his credit, he called a great game against the Saints the following week and he put his O-line and QB in a position to succeed. I believe overall this year he truly has had good game plans and that is why the team overall doesn't struggle to move the ball. They move the ball either with the passing game or with the running or both each week for the most part. The problem is the red zone and that is where execution to the highest level is necessary and right now our players aren't really doing that. Some play calls may be bad at times but I refuse to believe that every play call that the players are given in the red zone doesn't allow for them to succeed and thus they are the 31st ranked team in the red zone. I will blame the OC for most of the problems when I see that our players are no longer blowing up great play designs with terrible execution. When everyone is doing there job almost to perfection and the team is still unable to field a decent offense I will then blame the OC. Until then, in my opinion players just need to execute better.

Just my opinion !

I agree with most of this. I feel that when the CBA was approved it hurt some one like Kaepernick whom is very talented but raw, and He is unable to work with coaches during the off season to develop footwork and other things to perfect his craft. As for Roman he has done some good things but since the team is not closing out in the 4th quarters to secure wins, I have to blame His inability to adjust on the fly.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:
I had to stop reading. I respect the work you and thl do here but there is a very obvious bias and agenda here to be taken too seriously at this juncture.

Riiight, just because we don't grab a pitchfork to join your "fire Roman" mob, we have a bias and an agenda. If you missed it, just above I said that there was a play, and I have already seen more plays, where I don't like the play design/call. This isn't the first, nor the last time that I have called out the coaches. I don't fully agree that it's all on Kap either, but that doesn't mean jonnydel has a bias. If anything he is one of the most objective posters on this forum. You know what's bias? Seeing the punt coverage unit take the field and bumping the Fire Roman thread. Hang on NC, you will get to see cut ups that will make you wett as I put the coaches on blast. It will come in due time.

I should not have tied you into that comment but fans see you both, as one. I know you've worked very hard on branching out and looking not at just the end results, but context and big picture and association of events that lead to a fail or success of such still shots/gifs. I respect that. You know that.

And nobody was out with a pitch fork after year 1...a few after the Superbowl, a few put theirs down d/t the WR personnel excuse but now, the pitch forks are out in full force for a reason. It's been 4 years now, under 2 different QB's, with incredible talent on offense and WE'VE REGRESSED.

So yes, forgive the fans who see CK, the WR's, the OL in pass protection, mental lapses, concentration issues, perpectual patterns as the end result of a piss poor offensive philosophy, poor coaching and lack of attention to detail, little to no accountability, etc.

Some would have you believe that if you put Peyton Manning in this offense, we'd suddenly be a top 5 offense. Fine. That's great. Some fans here would say if you put Manning in this offense, he'd be physically carted off on a stretcher afte week 2 (meaning CK makes this offense even move forward).

But if you're going to claim objectivity, you need to show it. I know even the biggest anti-HaRoman fans will at least admit when CK effs up, a RB failed in pass protection, the OL struggled, bone-headed penalties, TO's, etc, cost us.

Some of the posts in here have tried to balance this out with context but, ironically, have been completely ignored.

How about we start with every first down play given that we're still 30th in the league on first down production puting our entire offense against the 8-ball on 2nd and 3rd downs.

It's like jonnydel and I are being shamed because we don't blast the coaches enough. Yet when we say over and over that it is a collective fail from everyone on offense, it falls on deaf ears. When we show a player fail, feel free to expand and tell us why the position coach did a poor job. Why can't Boone and Iupati pick up stunts? Why can't VD and Crabs catch the ball? Blame the appropriate coach. If you want to make it convenient and blame the OC, go a couple steps further and blame the guy that hired the guy that brought on this coaching staff.

How about you buy NFL Rewind and show me what I fail to show.

Not at all. You two are probably the most respected posters on this site right now no matter what school of thought you come from. You've earned that. Do you think ANYONE likes to bash HaRoman? Well, maybe pasodoc and cciowa. LOL. j/k. Sort of.

And one does not NEED NFL Rewind to review series of events; sequence of plays. I provided that in these threads several times...what I liked about the play calling series and what I didn't. Isn't THAT objective? Yet, this is the part that falls on deaf ears with the pro-HaRoman crowd in here. Numerous examples of context, series of plays, perpetual negative patterns, etc...all ignored.

If we're going to talk objectivity here, you've gone on record yourself saying that 50% of the offensive woes are d/t CK. That would fall under jonnydel's perspective as well. So naturally, that's how this thread spins. And that's fine! But, what about the rest of the crowd that feels CK isn't being put in position to succeed? Where are those stills/gifs? Where is that context?

If we're going to talk offense, let's talk offense. What do you two make of this...and please, ALL, chime in as well. Jonnydel and thl have provided a forum for us all. So let's discuss this offense objectively.

First down issues and predictability remain salient. This stat points to offensive play selection (mostly running on first downs) so you can eliminate CK from fault, OL pass protection and TE and WR issues. OL run blocking is our strength as is Gore/Hyde/Miller.

Saints Game:
2nd and 4 at NO 4 (13:05) (Shotgun) F.Gore left end for 4 yards, TOUCHDOWN. P.Dawson extra point is GOOD, Center-K.Nelson, Holder-A.Lee.
2nd and 10 at SF 32 (10:09) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep left to A.Boldin (C.White).
2nd and 5 at 50 (8:44) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep right to V.Davis.
2nd and 12 at NO 33 (7:15) C.Kaepernick pass short middle to V.Davis to NO 25 for 8 yards (R.Bush). Pass 5, YAC 3
2nd and 8 at NO 18 (5:12) (Shotgun) PENALTY on NO-J.Jenkins, Encroachment, 5 yards, enforced at NO 18 - No Play.
2nd and 10 at SF 23 (1:29) (Shotgun) M.Ingram left tackle to SF 21 for 2 yards (C.Borland).
2nd and 1 at SF 25 (14:19) B.Miller right guard to SF 28 for 3 yards (B.Deaderick).
2nd and 17 at SF 21 (12:38) (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep right to A.Boldin (K.Lewis).
2nd and 10 at SF 40 (8:24) F.Gore right guard to SF 44 for 4 yards (P.Haralson).
2nd and 12 at NO 48 (6:12) (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass deep middle to A.Boldin to NO 25 for 23 yards (R.Bush). Pass 18, YAC 5
2nd and 10 at NO 46 (2:32) (Shotgun) F.Gore left guard to NO 45 for 1 yard (R.Humber).
2nd and 8 at SF 24 (14:17) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete short right to B.Miller.
2nd and 9 at SF 44 (12:52) F.Gore left tackle to 50 for 6 yards (P.Haralson).
2nd and 19 at SF 11 (7:44) (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass short left to S.Johnson to SF 15 for 4 yards (R.Humber; C.White). Pass -1, YAC 5
2nd and 6 at NO 40 (6:13) (Shotgun) D.Brees pass short left to B.Cooks to NO 45 for 5 yards (C.Culliver). Pass -2, YAC 7
2nd and 7 at SF 26 (2:09) C.Kaepernick pass short right to F.Gore to SF 28 for 2 yards (R.Humber). Pass -4, YAC 6
2nd and 10 at SF 17 (12:12) C.Kaepernick pass short left to M.Crabtree to SF 23 for 6 yards (R.Humber). Pass 4, YAC 2
2nd and 4 at SF 38 (10:06) C.Kaepernick right end pushed ob at SF 43 for 5 yards (K.Vaccaro).
2nd and 6 at SF 47 (8:48) F.Gore right guard to SF 49 for 2 yards (J.Jenkins).
2nd and 10 at SF 22 (1:43) (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass short left to A.Boldin to SF 28 for 6 yards (C.Lofton). Pass 5, YAC 1 The Replay Official challenged the pass completion ruling, and the play was REVERSED. (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete short left to A.Boldin (C.Lofton). The Saints called timeout, and the officals chose to REVIEW the play, with the result that the previous play was REVERSED. After the reversal, the Saints were given their timeout back.
2nd and 10 at NO 27 (1:00) (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete short left to A.Boldin.
2nd and 8 at NO 38 (13:45) (Shotgun) D.Brees pass short right to K.Stills to NO 43 for 5 yards (P.Cox). Pass 5, YAC 0
2nd and 5 at SF 47 (12:11) M.Ingram right tackle to SF 43 for 4 yards (C.Borland; M.Wilhoite).
2nd and 1 at SF 44 (9:52) C.Hyde right guard to SF 47 for 3 yards (C.Jordan).
2nd nd 10 at SF 47 (8:31) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep left to M.Crabtree.

Of the 25 2nd downs we had this game here is the breakdown:
17 times 25 times of >7 to go averaging 10.6 yards left to go

Giant's Game:
2nd and 5 at SF 25 (6:18) (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep right to V.Davis.
2nd and 18 at SF 41 (4:08) (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep left to M.Crabtree (D.Rodgers-Cromartie). PENALTY on NYG-D.Rodgers-Cromartie, Defensive Pass Interference, 35 yards, enforced at SF 41 - No Play.
2nd and 17 at NYG 17 (1:52) (Shotgun) C.Hyde right tackle to NYG 13 for 4 yards (J.McClain, J.Hankins).
2nd and 2 at SF 47 (14:35) F.Gore right end ran ob at NYG 37 for 16 yards (Q.Demps).
2nd and 1 at NYG 28 (13:43) C.Hyde right tackle to NYG 29 for -1 yards (M.Kiwanuka, J.McClain).
2nd and 11 at NYG 24 (11:09) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep middle to M.Crabtree (D.Rodgers-Cromartie).
2nd and 7 at NYG 26 (7:46) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep left to V.Davis.
2nd and 8 at SF 17 (3:57) (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass deep left to M.Crabtree to SF 42 for 25 yards (D.Rodgers-Cromartie).
2nd and 11 at SF 41 (2:24) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep left to B.Lloyd.
2nd and 10 at SF 41 (12:32) (Shotgun) F.Gore right end to NYG 48 for 11 yards (J.McClain, A.Rolle).
2nd and 9 at SF 33 (6:11) C.Kaepernick pass short left to S.Johnson to SF 41 for 8 yards (Chy.Brown).
2nd and 5 at NYG 43 (3:59) (Shotgun) F.Gore up the middle to NYG 38 for 5 yards (M.Patterson, M.Herzlich).
2nd and 10 at NYG 38 (3:05) (Shotgun) C.Hyde up the middle to NYG 34 for 4 yards (M.Herzlich, J.Hankins).
2nd and 7 at SF 49 (:43) (No Huddle, Shotgun) E.Manning pass incomplete short right to R.Jennings (C.Borland).
2nd and 6 at NYG 40 (14:25) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep right to V.Davis
2nd and 8 at SF 23 (9:15) (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass short left to A.Boldin pushed ob at SF 30 for 7 yards (Chy.Brown).
2nd and 5 at SF 38 (7:22) (Shotgun) C.Hyde left tackle to SF 39 for 1 yard (A.Rolle).
2nd and 2 at SF 10 (4:05) F.Gore right guard to SF 13 for 3 yards (J.McClain, D.Kennard).
2nd and 9 at SF 25 (2:34) F.Gore right tackle to SF 27 for 2 yards (A.Rolle, M.Kuhn).
Only 19 2nd down opportunities this game:
12 of the 19 times of >7 yards to go averaging 10.4 yards to go

30th in the league in first down production for the season. Only the Lions and Raiders are worse.
http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/team-yards-per-first-down-attempt/2014/


Playing with only 2 downs and behind the 8-ball. It's hard to do...

My personal opinion is that those are just rehashed stats that don't mean much if not taken into context - down distance, opposing defensive formation look, and offensive personnel groupings. Saying Colin failed on first down - without much more than the above, really isn't saying much, in my opinion.

I think jonnydel and thl and several others with access to the all 22 film give a much deeper look at each play, and a much more precise view of exactly what happened and why, and probably draw a much more accurate conclusion (not necessarily right or wrong) but a much deeper analysis than just looking at down and distance on a given play. In doing so, they give the webzoners a deeper understanding of the the game. Those that don't take the time and effort to understand what they are saying *before* criticising them are losing out on some valuable insights that can be gotten by going through the effort of it. Just my 2 cents.

No this is incorrect. NCommand is presenting the information that shows quite clearly the play sequencing is horrid, and that is the primary reason our offense is all uphill and needs a chunk miracle every three snaps to move downfield.

I was hoping we would get away from the cutups and be analytical about the apropriateness of throwing the ball 25 yards in situations where gaining five would make the next play call so much easier on us. I'm still hoping we can go there. I think that's a lack of aptitude that may not be reflected fully in ornate play design and in the x and o details that are so fascinating to explore..

And I also buy into JD calling out kap on leadership. I think he has not been a good leader -- way too celebratory on touchdowns when the team is in the midst of an awful performance. That's gotta go. But that's not the majority of the issue.

Our playbook is missing entire chapters. We don't have the experience and savvy to judiciously mix in play fakes, misdirection, look offs, nuances like that which win plays here and there. But most importantly, we just don't believe we have three downs to get ten yards, and plan for it. With us, play calling is playing the slots. We call three 12 yard plays and expect one of them will hit instead of treating a 4 yard play a 5 yard play and a three yard play as a legitimate chain moving sequence.

I think that is 80% the reason for the boom and bust mentality we have shown for a while. More than execution lapse and immature qb.

I really hope you guys have analytics for play sequencing. How about comparing the 3rd quarter of the giant game with say a 1985 sequnce from the glory years? Just to see how differnt the play calling and designs can be. Why one is a paradigm of dominating offensive consistency, and the other is a freak show that defies hope and optimism.

Can someone please change the name of this thread to "10-Way Crygasm" I feel mislead.

Always love the film analysis

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by NCommand:
This is true and they used their TE as the primary target and we used Crabtree. The design was fine...I wouldn't put that on HaRoman so much as Morton needs to kick these guys in the ass and sell that. Even Johnson's man wasn't that fooled and even had a chance underneath had it not been perfectly thrown in anticipation. This is an OK design, poorly run and forced CK to throw an anticipation throw when he probably shouldn't have had too if properly run/sold and the OL held up. But it was 3rd down so heat is coming. Also, IIRC, I liked the design in the Chiefs game more b/c of the series of calls leading up to that point. IIRC, they were hitting us on the edges and sidelines and then fake outside and hit us across the middle of the field. So, context. But don't "quote" me on that...even though...you literally could do that in here. Haha

Generally on this concept, to hit the skinny/post/dig it is an anticipation throw. You are eyeing that window once that slot db is occupied. This was an excellent throw by kap and I think he hit his play again on the long Td to crabs. That slot guy really can play this concept two ways-that is slow play it like SJ to keep vert stretch or angle it out a bit like KC. I imagine KC angled it a bit because they didn't have flAre route like we did with gore. The little angle helps give a little horizontal stretch like the flare route is designed to do.

It's a great concept because if the defense tries to exclusively take the skinny away now the slot guys is left all alone.

Yes. Please cut up the Crabtree TD...loved it. In fact, even THAT throw was a bit behind Crabtree and he had to stutter his momentum and STILL had enough room for composure and YAC for the TD. Granted, the Giants secondary looked lost to me on several occasions, I want to highlight some of these terrific calls as well esp. when executed properly.

On the design KC ran with the TE, can you explain why that's designed to be an anticipation throw? It looks like to me the design is to clear him open via the decoy and had that been someone like VD running across the middle there (with speed), that DB is in trail-mode the whole time which means Alex could have hit him any time in that route, not just before he was turning into the "window."

Will everyone please go over to the Fire Greg Roman thread until the resident geese lay their golden eggs? You are fouling the nest!

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
No this is incorrect. NCommand is presenting the information that shows quite clearly the play sequencing is horrid, and that is the primary reason our offense is all uphill and needs a chunk miracle every three snaps to move downfield.

I was hoping we would get away from the cutups and be analytical about the apropriateness of throwing the ball 25 yards in situations where gaining five would make the next play call so much easier on us. I'm still hoping we can go there. I think that's a lack of aptitude that may not be reflected fully in ornate play design and in the x and o details that are so fascinating to explore..

And I also buy into JD calling out kap on leadership. I think he has not been a good leader -- way too celebratory on touchdowns when the team is in the midst of an awful performance. That's gotta go. But that's not the majority of the issue.

Our playbook is missing entire chapters. We don't have the experience and savvy to judiciously mix in play fakes, misdirection, look offs, nuances like that which win plays here and there. But most importantly, we just don't believe we have three downs to get ten yards, and plan for it. With us, play calling is playing the slots. We call three 12 yard plays and expect one of them will hit instead of treating a 4 yard play a 5 yard play and a three yard play as a legitimate chain moving sequence.

I think that is 80% the reason for the boom and bust mentality we have shown for a while. More than execution lapse and immature qb.

I really hope you guys have analytics for play sequencing. How about comparing the 3rd quarter of the giant game with say a 1985 sequnce from the glory years? Just to see how differnt the play calling and designs can be. Why one is a paradigm of dominating offensive consistency, and the other is a freak show that defies hope and optimism.

Correction. Every two downs. We throw the first down away.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Yes. Please cut up the Crabtree TD...loved it. In fact, even THAT throw was a bit behind Crabtree and he had to stutter his momentum and STILL had enough room for composure and YAC for the TD. Granted, the Giants secondary looked lost to me on several occasions, I want to highlight some of these terrific calls as well esp. when executed properly.

On the design KC ran with the TE, can you explain why that's designed to be an anticipation throw? It looks like to me the design is to clear him open via the decoy and had that been someone like VD running across the middle there (with speed), that DB is in trail-mode the whole time which means Alex could have hit him any time in that route, not just before he was turning into the "window."

I think on the KC version they are using a tighter split and if you look at the curl WR he even starts to kinda break out. The anticipation much like kaps throw is they know as soon as the slot db is on the curl that dig/post should be open. IMO, the KC is more of a dig whereas I would classify ours as more of a post/skinny. Due to the differences in dig and post IMO there is a little more anticipation in throwing a skinny on this particular class concept. With the dig, the WR can still stay in front o the defender and not be undercut. Post patterns can be notoriously undercut if not roped at the right time.

Overall, much like any concept its how you wrap it up and present it. The other that has to be said about what we ran is if kap redlighted both the curl and skinny gore was wide open on the flare.

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Yes. Please cut up the Crabtree TD...loved it. In fact, even THAT throw was a bit behind Crabtree and he had to stutter his momentum and STILL had enough room for composure and YAC for the TD. Granted, the Giants secondary looked lost to me on several occasions, I want to highlight some of these terrific calls as well esp. when executed properly.

On the design KC ran with the TE, can you explain why that's designed to be an anticipation throw? It looks like to me the design is to clear him open via the decoy and had that been someone like VD running across the middle there (with speed), that DB is in trail-mode the whole time which means Alex could have hit him any time in that route, not just before he was turning into the "window."

I think on the KC version they are using a tighter split and if you look at the curl WR he even starts to kinda break out. The anticipation much like kaps throw is they know as soon as the slot db is on the curl that dig/post should be open. IMO, the KC is more of a dig whereas I would classify ours as more of a post/skinny. Due to the differences in dig and post IMO there is a little more anticipation in throwing a skinny on this particular class concept. With the dig, the WR can still stay in front o the defender and not be undercut. Post patterns can be notoriously undercut if not roped at the right time.

Overall, much like any concept its how you wrap it up and present it. The other that has to be said about what we ran is if kap redlighted both the curl and skinny gore was wide open on the flare.

Great explanation (and thanks for that!). That may be why Johnson doesn't pull "away" from the targeted area and just sits down unlike the Chief's design. This way, if CK can't hit that area, Gore/Hyde still have room on the flare out. Otherwise, if Johnson pulls the defender away, he runs the defender right into that flare out.

Hi all. I'm a long time (maybe six years?) lurker here, but thought I would finally sign up to say my peace. This dumpster fire of a thread seems like as good a place as any to finally post.

This forum is the single most awful place on the internet that I regularly view. You'd be hard pressed to find a more belligerent group of know-nothings than you regularly find in the 49erswebzone forums. Every fan base has a layer of truly awful fans, but I've been amazed that seemingly all of the 49ers worst fans all end up here. It's like a bilge pump at a sewage treatment plant broke, and all these terrible trolls just backed up into this place.

What's most shocking is how long some of these chumps have been here. Just firing off angry posts for literally years! I always assume that the only people that ever leave this forum, is when they get caught punching a dude in the bathrooms at the stadium, and suddenly lose their internet rights in prison. Seriously, it's so strange to see people with tens of thousands of posts, but are still barely literate. You'd think that at some point, after writing about how much you hate the team we all root for, you'd learn some basic grammar. But, alas, you don't.

Anyway, the reason I decided to show up was to give some props to THL and JonnyDel for the truly awesome posts that they regularly post. I really love these threads, with the exception of having to dig through the comments from most of the rest of you apes. I'm worried that the tone of this thread will make these two guys stop doing this really great work, or else they will bail to another site, and I wouldn't know where they went, and wouldn't be able to continue reading what are really entertaining posts. I hope that doesn't happen. This is really good stuff in here, every week. I'm sorry that there is a group of morons kinda ruining this (the way they ruin everything else).

Have fun, guys. I'm sure I'll be perma-banned soon.

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:
I had to stop reading. I respect the work you and thl do here but there is a very obvious bias and agenda here to be taken too seriously at this juncture.

Riiight, just because we don't grab a pitchfork to join your "fire Roman" mob, we have a bias and an agenda. If you missed it, just above I said that there was a play, and I have already seen more plays, where I don't like the play design/call. This isn't the first, nor the last time that I have called out the coaches. I don't fully agree that it's all on Kap either, but that doesn't mean jonnydel has a bias. If anything he is one of the most objective posters on this forum. You know what's bias? Seeing the punt coverage unit take the field and bumping the Fire Roman thread. Hang on NC, you will get to see cut ups that will make you wett as I put the coaches on blast. It will come in due time.

I should not have tied you into that comment but fans see you both, as one. I know you've worked very hard on branching out and looking not at just the end results, but context and big picture and association of events that lead to a fail or success of such still shots/gifs. I respect that. You know that.

And nobody was out with a pitch fork after year 1...a few after the Superbowl, a few put theirs down d/t the WR personnel excuse but now, the pitch forks are out in full force for a reason. It's been 4 years now, under 2 different QB's, with incredible talent on offense and WE'VE REGRESSED.

So yes, forgive the fans who see CK, the WR's, the OL in pass protection, mental lapses, concentration issues, perpectual patterns as the end result of a piss poor offensive philosophy, poor coaching and lack of attention to detail, little to no accountability, etc.

Some would have you believe that if you put Peyton Manning in this offense, we'd suddenly be a top 5 offense. Fine. That's great. Some fans here would say if you put Manning in this offense, he'd be physically carted off on a stretcher afte week 2 (meaning CK makes this offense even move forward).

But if you're going to claim objectivity, you need to show it. I know even the biggest anti-HaRoman fans will at least admit when CK effs up, a RB failed in pass protection, the OL struggled, bone-headed penalties, TO's, etc, cost us.

Some of the posts in here have tried to balance this out with context but, ironically, have been completely ignored.

How about we start with every first down play given that we're still 30th in the league on first down production puting our entire offense against the 8-ball on 2nd and 3rd downs.

It's like jonnydel and I are being shamed because we don't blast the coaches enough. Yet when we say over and over that it is a collective fail from everyone on offense, it falls on deaf ears. When we show a player fail, feel free to expand and tell us why the position coach did a poor job. Why can't Boone and Iupati pick up stunts? Why can't VD and Crabs catch the ball? Blame the appropriate coach. If you want to make it convenient and blame the OC, go a couple steps further and blame the guy that hired the guy that brought on this coaching staff.

How about you buy NFL Rewind and show me what I fail to show.

Not at all. You two are probably the most respected posters on this site right now no matter what school of thought you come from. You've earned that. Do you think ANYONE likes to bash HaRoman? Well, maybe pasodoc and cciowa. LOL. j/k. Sort of.

And one does not NEED NFL Rewind to review series of events; sequence of plays. I provided that in these threads several times...what I liked about the play calling series and what I didn't. Isn't THAT objective? Yet, this is the part that falls on deaf ears with the pro-HaRoman crowd in here. Numerous examples of context, series of plays, perpetual negative patterns, etc...all ignored.

If we're going to talk objectivity here, you've gone on record yourself saying that 50% of the offensive woes are d/t CK. That would fall under jonnydel's perspective as well. So naturally, that's how this thread spins. And that's fine! But, what about the rest of the crowd that feels CK isn't being put in position to succeed? Where are those stills/gifs? Where is that context?

If we're going to talk offense, let's talk offense. What do you two make of this...and please, ALL, chime in as well. Jonnydel and thl have provided a forum for us all. So let's discuss this offense objectively.

First down issues and predictability remain salient. This stat points to offensive play selection (mostly running on first downs) so you can eliminate CK from fault, OL pass protection and TE and WR issues. OL run blocking is our strength as is Gore/Hyde/Miller.

Saints Game:
2nd and 4 at NO 4 (13:05) (Shotgun) F.Gore left end for 4 yards, TOUCHDOWN. P.Dawson extra point is GOOD, Center-K.Nelson, Holder-A.Lee.
2nd and 10 at SF 32 (10:09) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep left to A.Boldin (C.White).
2nd and 5 at 50 (8:44) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep right to V.Davis.
2nd and 12 at NO 33 (7:15) C.Kaepernick pass short middle to V.Davis to NO 25 for 8 yards (R.Bush). Pass 5, YAC 3
2nd and 8 at NO 18 (5:12) (Shotgun) PENALTY on NO-J.Jenkins, Encroachment, 5 yards, enforced at NO 18 - No Play.
2nd and 10 at SF 23 (1:29) (Shotgun) M.Ingram left tackle to SF 21 for 2 yards (C.Borland).
2nd and 1 at SF 25 (14:19) B.Miller right guard to SF 28 for 3 yards (B.Deaderick).
2nd and 17 at SF 21 (12:38) (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep right to A.Boldin (K.Lewis).
2nd and 10 at SF 40 (8:24) F.Gore right guard to SF 44 for 4 yards (P.Haralson).
2nd and 12 at NO 48 (6:12) (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass deep middle to A.Boldin to NO 25 for 23 yards (R.Bush). Pass 18, YAC 5
2nd and 10 at NO 46 (2:32) (Shotgun) F.Gore left guard to NO 45 for 1 yard (R.Humber).
2nd and 8 at SF 24 (14:17) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete short right to B.Miller.
2nd and 9 at SF 44 (12:52) F.Gore left tackle to 50 for 6 yards (P.Haralson).
2nd and 19 at SF 11 (7:44) (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass short left to S.Johnson to SF 15 for 4 yards (R.Humber; C.White). Pass -1, YAC 5
2nd and 6 at NO 40 (6:13) (Shotgun) D.Brees pass short left to B.Cooks to NO 45 for 5 yards (C.Culliver). Pass -2, YAC 7
2nd and 7 at SF 26 (2:09) C.Kaepernick pass short right to F.Gore to SF 28 for 2 yards (R.Humber). Pass -4, YAC 6
2nd and 10 at SF 17 (12:12) C.Kaepernick pass short left to M.Crabtree to SF 23 for 6 yards (R.Humber). Pass 4, YAC 2
2nd and 4 at SF 38 (10:06) C.Kaepernick right end pushed ob at SF 43 for 5 yards (K.Vaccaro).
2nd and 6 at SF 47 (8:48) F.Gore right guard to SF 49 for 2 yards (J.Jenkins).
2nd and 10 at SF 22 (1:43) (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass short left to A.Boldin to SF 28 for 6 yards (C.Lofton). Pass 5, YAC 1 The Replay Official challenged the pass completion ruling, and the play was REVERSED. (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete short left to A.Boldin (C.Lofton). The Saints called timeout, and the officals chose to REVIEW the play, with the result that the previous play was REVERSED. After the reversal, the Saints were given their timeout back.
2nd and 10 at NO 27 (1:00) (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete short left to A.Boldin.
2nd and 8 at NO 38 (13:45) (Shotgun) D.Brees pass short right to K.Stills to NO 43 for 5 yards (P.Cox). Pass 5, YAC 0
2nd and 5 at SF 47 (12:11) M.Ingram right tackle to SF 43 for 4 yards (C.Borland; M.Wilhoite).
2nd and 1 at SF 44 (9:52) C.Hyde right guard to SF 47 for 3 yards (C.Jordan).
2nd nd 10 at SF 47 (8:31) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep left to M.Crabtree.

Of the 25 2nd downs we had this game here is the breakdown:
17 times 25 times of >7 to go averaging 10.6 yards left to go

Giant's Game:
2nd and 5 at SF 25 (6:18) (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep right to V.Davis.
2nd and 18 at SF 41 (4:08) (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep left to M.Crabtree (D.Rodgers-Cromartie). PENALTY on NYG-D.Rodgers-Cromartie, Defensive Pass Interference, 35 yards, enforced at SF 41 - No Play.
2nd and 17 at NYG 17 (1:52) (Shotgun) C.Hyde right tackle to NYG 13 for 4 yards (J.McClain, J.Hankins).
2nd and 2 at SF 47 (14:35) F.Gore right end ran ob at NYG 37 for 16 yards (Q.Demps).
2nd and 1 at NYG 28 (13:43) C.Hyde right tackle to NYG 29 for -1 yards (M.Kiwanuka, J.McClain).
2nd and 11 at NYG 24 (11:09) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep middle to M.Crabtree (D.Rodgers-Cromartie).
2nd and 7 at NYG 26 (7:46) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep left to V.Davis.
2nd and 8 at SF 17 (3:57) (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass deep left to M.Crabtree to SF 42 for 25 yards (D.Rodgers-Cromartie).
2nd and 11 at SF 41 (2:24) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep left to B.Lloyd.
2nd and 10 at SF 41 (12:32) (Shotgun) F.Gore right end to NYG 48 for 11 yards (J.McClain, A.Rolle).
2nd and 9 at SF 33 (6:11) C.Kaepernick pass short left to S.Johnson to SF 41 for 8 yards (Chy.Brown).
2nd and 5 at NYG 43 (3:59) (Shotgun) F.Gore up the middle to NYG 38 for 5 yards (M.Patterson, M.Herzlich).
2nd and 10 at NYG 38 (3:05) (Shotgun) C.Hyde up the middle to NYG 34 for 4 yards (M.Herzlich, J.Hankins).
2nd and 7 at SF 49 (:43) (No Huddle, Shotgun) E.Manning pass incomplete short right to R.Jennings (C.Borland).
2nd and 6 at NYG 40 (14:25) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete deep right to V.Davis
2nd and 8 at SF 23 (9:15) (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass short left to A.Boldin pushed ob at SF 30 for 7 yards (Chy.Brown).
2nd and 5 at SF 38 (7:22) (Shotgun) C.Hyde left tackle to SF 39 for 1 yard (A.Rolle).
2nd and 2 at SF 10 (4:05) F.Gore right guard to SF 13 for 3 yards (J.McClain, D.Kennard).
2nd and 9 at SF 25 (2:34) F.Gore right tackle to SF 27 for 2 yards (A.Rolle, M.Kuhn).
Only 19 2nd down opportunities this game:
12 of the 19 times of >7 yards to go averaging 10.4 yards to go

30th in the league in first down production for the season. Only the Lions and Raiders are worse.
http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/team-yards-per-first-down-attempt/2014/


Playing with only 2 downs and behind the 8-ball. It's hard to do...

My personal opinion is that those are just rehashed stats that don't mean much if not taken into context - down distance, opposing defensive formation look, and offensive personnel groupings. Saying Colin failed on first down - without much more than the above, really isn't saying much, in my opinion.

I think jonnydel and thl and several others with access to the all 22 film give a much deeper look at each play, and a much more precise view of exactly what happened and why, and probably draw a much more accurate conclusion (not necessarily right or wrong) but a much deeper analysis than just looking at down and distance on a given play. In doing so, they give the webzoners a deeper understanding of the the game. Those that don't take the time and effort to understand what they are saying *before* criticising them are losing out on some valuable insights that can be gotten by going through the effort of it. Just my 2 cents.

No this is incorrect. NCommand is presenting the information that shows quite clearly the play sequencing is horrid, and that is the primary reason our offense is all uphill and needs a chunk miracle every three snaps to move downfield.

I was hoping we would get away from the cutups and be analytical about the apropriateness of throwing the ball 25 yards in situations where gaining five would make the next play call so much easier on us. I'm still hoping we can go there. I think that's a lack of aptitude that may not be reflected fully in ornate play design and in the x and o details that are so fascinating to explore..

And I also buy into JD calling out kap on leadership. I think he has not been a good leader -- way too celebratory on touchdowns when the team is in the midst of an awful performance. That's gotta go. But that's not the majority of the issue.

Our playbook is missing entire chapters. We don't have the experience and savvy to judiciously mix in play fakes, misdirection, look offs, nuances like that which win plays here and there. But most importantly, we just don't believe we have three downs to get ten yards, and plan for it. With us, play calling is playing the slots. We call three 12 yard plays and expect one of them will hit instead of treating a 4 yard play a 5 yard play and a three yard play as a legitimate chain moving sequence.

I think that is 80% the reason for the boom and bust mentality we have shown for a while. More than execution lapse and immature qb.

I really hope you guys have analytics for play sequencing. How about comparing the 3rd quarter of the giant game with say a 1985 sequnce from the glory years? Just to see how differnt the play calling and designs can be. Why one is a paradigm of dominating offensive consistency, and the other is a freak show that defies hope and optimism.

I saw some very good first down gains by Gore in the Giants game and the New Orleans game. I think our run game is one of the best. The statistics bear that out. Where this offense is having problems is in the passing game, again the stats bear that out. If you compare the NY Giants to the 49er offense, and also look at the game, the Giants were much more consistent and smoother on their offense than ours. I think if you zero in on the TE position, you will see the NY TE's outproduced our TE by a 3 to 1 margin. Just looking at Donnell season (the NY Giants TE) vs VD, and you see him having 40+ catches to VD's 18.

I think aside from the sub par pass protection and constant failure of blitz pickups in the red zone, the TE position and Vernon in particular is really costing this offense. Several times Vernon and Vance were targeted and the failures and misfires left the offense in 3rd down long yardage situations. Not a good thing if you want to keep a drive alive.

Hopefully with the offense playing at home, the offense can actually call audibles and more motions in the game. That may help the red zone blitz pick ups and possible hot route adjustments on weird all or nothing defensive calls by opposing teams. If there is one area of the offense I can point to - that is causing all the offensive breakdowns, it's the lack of the TE production, sub par pass protection by the O Line, and of course Colin's tendency to throw deep instead of getting the sure checkdown pass for positive yardage. You might as well throw in there some of G-ro's badly designed pass plays, but I don't think its as big a factor as failure to execute by the offensive players.

Originally posted by LastPost:
Hi all. I'm a long time (maybe six years?) lurker here, but thought I would finally sign up to say my peace. This dumpster fire of a thread seems like as good a place as any to finally post.

This forum is the single most awful place on the internet that I regularly view. You'd be hard pressed to find a more belligerent group of know-nothings than you regularly find in the 49erswebzone forums. Every fan base has a layer of truly awful fans, but I've been amazed that seemingly all of the 49ers worst fans all end up here. It's like a bilge pump at a sewage treatment plant broke, and all these terrible trolls just backed up into this place.

What's most shocking is how long some of these chumps have been here. Just firing off angry posts for literally years! I always assume that the only people that ever leave this forum, is when they get caught punching a dude in the bathrooms at the stadium, and suddenly lose their internet rights in prison. Seriously, it's so strange to see people with tens of thousands of posts, but are still barely literate. You'd think that at some point, after writing about how much you hate the team we all root for, you'd learn some basic grammar. But, alas, you don't.

Anyway, the reason I decided to show up was to give some props to THL and JonnyDel for the truly awesome posts that they regularly post. I really love these threads, with the exception of having to dig through the comments from most of the rest of you apes. I'm worried that the tone of this thread will make these two guys stop doing this really great work, or else they will bail to another site, and I wouldn't know where they went, and wouldn't be able to continue reading what are really entertaining posts. I hope that doesn't happen. This is really good stuff in here, every week. I'm sorry that there is a group of morons kinda ruining this (the way they ruin everything else).

Have fun, guys. I'm sure I'll be perma-banned soon.

Translation = Seahawks fan that used Johnny and THL's post to learn about football since most in the northwest keep getting it confused with soccer or a half priced McDonald's deal.