The Total Inability of 49er Fans to Understand Receiver Performance

Originally posted by Marvin49:
Total, utter and complete BS. Seriously.

Have you EVER watched a Stanford game? Harbaugh and Roman freakin' LOVE TEs. 2 and 3 TE sets are a STAPLE of the offense.

Harbaugh may very well have CHOSEN SF because of the presence of Vernon Davis and Delanie Walker.

If you don't know that, they you really aren't paying attention. This was ALWAYS going to be a TE friendly offense.

Its news to him. Stanford...Harbaugh coached at Stanford? No way.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
This is nonsense. Harbaugh used 2 and 3 TE formations at Stanford as well, its one of the key components of his version of the WCO. You're making baseless assumptions here. His history tells us that he favors TE heavy sets and likes to pass and run out of heavy-type sets. If anything Harbaugh under-utilized the 2 TE formations simply because Walker wasn't a major offensive threat so he needed someone else to look to. Put Fleener on this team and your standard offensive set becomes VD, Fleener, Crabtree and Manningham/Moss with Gore in the backfield.


Anything else you'd like to pull out of your posterior?

I do not know anything about sets and formations . I just know that vernon and fleener on the field together would be very bad for the defense, plus they would have to account for moss and the lack of safetys up at the line of scrimmage would help our running game. Plus i am just scared of getting a wide out in the first round. Fleener at number one and a very nice wide out at 2 like mcnutt or a wr/kr would not be tragic

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by Marvin49:
Total, utter and complete BS. Seriously.

Have you EVER watched a Stanford game? Harbaugh and Roman freakin' LOVE TEs. 2 and 3 TE sets are a STAPLE of the offense.

Harbaugh may very well have CHOSEN SF because of the presence of Vernon Davis and Delanie Walker.

If you don't know that, they you really aren't paying attention. This was ALWAYS going to be a TE friendly offense.

Its news to him. Stanford...Harbaugh coached at Stanford? No way.

I know...lol. Seriously.

That innovative TE frindly offense was one of the freakin' reasons Baalke wanted him in the first place. LOL!

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
This is nonsense. Harbaugh used 2 and 3 TE formations at Stanford as well, its one of the key components of his version of the WCO. You're making baseless assumptions here. His history tells us that he favors TE heavy sets and likes to pass and run out of heavy-type sets. If anything Harbaugh under-utilized the 2 TE formations simply because Walker wasn't a major offensive threat so he needed someone else to look to. Put Fleener on this team and your standard offensive set becomes VD, Fleener, Crabtree and Manningham/Moss with Gore in the backfield.


Anything else you'd like to pull out of your posterior?

I do not know anything about sets and formations . I just know that vernon and fleener on the field together would be very bad for the defense, plus they would have to account for moss and the lack of safetys up at the line of scrimmage would help our running game. Plus i am just scared of getting a wide out in the first round. Fleener at number one and a very nice wide out at 2 like mcnutt or a wr/kr would not be tragic

Think of it this way.

Your BASE offense featured 2 BIG, FAST TEs. You can't cover them with Linebackers so you pass on them. The D counters with CB who can keep up, but don't have much size.

When you pass them into putting in an extra DB.....you run the ball down their throwt and now you have 250+ LB TEs blocking CB.

Its really quite simple.

MATCHUP NIGHTMARES.

Originally posted by Marvin49:
I know...lol. Seriously.

That innovative TE frindly offense was one of the freakin' reasons Baalke wanted him in the first place. LOL!

That was one of the factors that was discussed during the frenzied hiring process where it looked like Harbaugh might go to Miami, he even was interviewed by Denver and one of the key points people brought up is that Harbaugh LOVES, LOVES, LOVES his TE's and with the 49ers he would have by far the best TE talent of any of the NFL teams that he was talking to or being potentially pursued by.

Its absolutely insane to think that a guy who focused as much on TE's as Harbaugh did as Stanford would all of the sudden turn around and go back to a conventional 3 WR, 1 TE-base offense, that's absolutely ridiculous, you're asking for a leopard to change his spots. Most college coaches have stuck to their guns and gone with what worked for them in college, a reason why so many have failed perhaps but Harbaugh's system is one that translates quite well to the NFL.


I think its far more likely that he will continue to focus on a TE-heavy offense rather than go to a typical model. He wants what he wants, he likes to have his way, so don't be shocked if this team goes TE early on in this draft, whether it be Fleener or Green or Egnew, people are going to freak out about if it happens, but if you just look at the guy, his philosophy, the type of offense that he wants, its no shock at all.

To me its also about value, a 6'6" TE who can run routes and has hands like a 6'0" receiver is more desirable because that same TE can legitimately stay in to run-block if needed, or split out wide or go across the middle, that keeps the defense on their toes and guessing, essentially the opposite of the Jimmy Raye model.


It isn't 1990 anymore where your TE's are big and slow, plodding guys who can make the occasional catch here and there, you've got TE's who are as fast as receivers, run routes like receivers, have hands like receivers, but have far better size and the bonus of being able to block credibly anywhere on the field. If there's one constant about football, its that it is always changing, always evolving, new schemes are being introduced, everyone is looking for an advantage, sticking to a time-worn model is idiotic if there are better potential options and ways to create more mismatches out there.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:

Originally posted by Marvin49:
I know...lol. Seriously.

That innovative TE frindly offense was one of the freakin' reasons Baalke wanted him in the first place. LOL!

That was one of the factors that was discussed during the frenzied hiring process where it looked like Harbaugh might go to Miami, he even was interviewed by Denver and one of the key points people brought up is that Harbaugh LOVES, LOVES, LOVES his TE's and with the 49ers he would have by far the best TE talent of any of the NFL teams that he was talking to or being potentially pursued by.

Its absolutely insane to think that a guy who focused as much on TE's as Harbaugh did as Stanford would all of the sudden turn around and go back to a conventional 3 WR, 1 TE-base offense, that's absolutely ridiculous, you're asking for a leopard to change his spots. Most college coaches have stuck to their guns and gone with what worked for them in college, a reason why so many have failed perhaps but Harbaugh's system is one that translates quite well to the NFL.


I think its far more likely that he will continue to focus on a TE-heavy offense rather than go to a typical model. He wants what he wants, he likes to have his way, so don't be shocked if this team goes TE early on in this draft, whether it be Fleener or Green or Egnew, people are going to freak out about if it happens, but if you just look at the guy, his philosophy, the type of offense that he wants, its no shock at all.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
To me its also about value, a 6'6" TE who can run routes and has hands like a 6'0" receiver is more desirable because that same TE can legitimately stay in to run-block if needed, or split out wide or go across the middle, that keeps the defense on their toes and guessing, essentially the opposite of the Jimmy Raye model.

Yup.

That's the only problem with the TEs right now. They are good...but not TALL. Davis is 6'3 (not bad at all), but adding a 66 TE with soft hands would be HUGE to adress the teams biggest weakness....redzone offense.

Totally agree that Delanie Walker is the most overhyped player over the past few years. Even with a two TE friendly offense his numbers where mediocre when healthy and he dropped some key third down passes. He will never be a starting TE in the NFL, he is more of a HB hybrid TE.

And Delanie returning punts and kick offs was a low light as a 49ers fan. Zero threat to return a kick.

Hopefully the stats you posted show some of the die hard Delanie fans that he is not even worth the 1.9 million he is making in 2012

Originally posted by 9erred:
Totally agree that Delanie Walker is the most overhyped player over the past few years. Even with a two TE friendly offense his numbers where mediocre when healthy and he dropped some key third down passes. He will never be a starting TE in the NFL, he is more of a HB hybrid TE.

And Delanie returning punts and kick offs was a low light as a 49ers fan. Zero threat to return a kick.

Hopefully the stats you posted show some of the die hard Delanie fans that he is not even worth the 1.9 million he is making in 2012

As I concluded in the other thread, he'd make a very good #3 TE on this team and a great #2 TE on other teams. As the #3 TE he can create major mismatches, especially with the defense having to worry about VD, Fleener, Crabtree all over the field.

Not really a fan of the DYAR statistics. A lot of those statistics are driven by the QB throwing to them and whether they were a frequent target. I mean, do people really think Jordy Nelson was the #2 WR last year? (and by their other stat, Jordy Nelson is the #1 WR....)

Another absurd thing about those stats, look at where Andre Johnson is ranked.

Originally posted by 9erred:
Totally agree that Delanie Walker is the most overhyped player over the past few years. Even with a two TE friendly offense his numbers where mediocre when healthy and he dropped some key third down passes. He will never be a starting TE in the NFL, he is more of a HB hybrid TE.

And Delanie returning punts and kick offs was a low light as a 49ers fan. Zero threat to return a kick.

Hopefully the stats you posted show some of the die hard Delanie fans that he is not even worth the 1.9 million he is making in 2012

No nearly as bad as you are making out. You can also draw a comparison to Davis's #s and Walkers #s. Walker was more of a primary target early on (when the O was still getting it's legs) and then down the stretch Davis turned it on and was the primary far more often.

Walker isn't a pro bowl TE, but he DOES have value. He can't be covered by a LB and he is an adequate blocker.

Alot of his production fell off as a product of what he was asked to do, not a lack of performance.

Also, I had ZERO prob with him a a Kick Returner. He took one back to the house in Preseason a few years ago and was DANGEROUS as a rookie in the preseason before he broke his collarbone.

All that said, I still really like Fleener. I'd like to keep all three.

For all the talk about 2 TE's as the feature look it hasn't won a SB. This is the NFL, not Stanford. Now you can think I'm "trolling" for disagreeing with you all you want. I can say all this Fleener-in-the-first fixation is all about 49er many fans wanting Fleener there because of the Stanford-JH connection, the Stanford playbook familiarity thing. But drafting a player in the 1st who won't be a starter isn't good, for any team. That's a completely logical position people can ignore all they want. I can say that the lack of production of our WR's forced JH & Roman, and even the past ragime, to rely heavily on the TE's, even in 3, 4, and 5 wide sets. That's a logical position that people can dismiss as "trolling" all they want. An argument can be made that JH wants to open the offense up a bit more, especially given we had a lot of trouble scoring last season. There's a reason there'a a difference between TE's and WR's . In the NFL, the offense can only be opened up so much with two talented TE's. In the NFL, at some point the WR position must become a threat or teams will force you to use them. And if you can't then consider yourself exposed. (Again, see the NFC title game.)

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
For all the talk about 2 TE's as the feature look it hasn't won a SB. This is the NFL, not Stanford. Now you can think I'm "trolling" for disagreeing with you all you want. I can say all this Fleener-in-the-first fixation is all about 49er many fans wanting Fleener there because of the Stanford-JH connection, the Stanford playbook familiarity thing. But drafting a player in the 1st who won't be a starter isn't good, for any team. That's a completely logical position people can ignore all they want. I can say that the lack of production of our WR's forced JH & Roman, and even the past ragime, to rely heavily on the TE's, even in 3, 4, and 5 wide sets. That's a logical position that people can dismiss as "trolling" all they want. An argument can be made that JH wants to open the offense up a bit more, especially given we had a lot of trouble scoring last season. There's a reason there'a a difference between TE's and WR's . In the NFL, the offense can only be opened up so much with two talented TE's. In the NFL, at some point the WR position must become a threat or teams will force you to use them. And if you can't then consider yourself exposed. (Again, see the NFC title game.)

Good thing the 49ers didn't target any WR's in free agency this year.

Not to mention that talk of taking Fleener in the first doesn't mean they can't draft a good WR later on. Everything I've heard suggests that there are at most 2 top-tier receivers in this draft but plenty of mid-round talent, and I would hate to see the FO reach for a receiver in the first round if a player like Fleener is available. Now, if there is somehow a top flight guard available at #30 and he's passed over for Fleener that would indeed raise some eyebrows, I think. But overall, the idea of opening of the offense with another pass catching TE isn't the worst idea in the world, especially if he's BPA at the end of the first round.

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
For all the talk about 2 TE's as the feature look it hasn't won a SB. This is the NFL, not Stanford. Now you can think I'm "trolling" for disagreeing with you all you want. I can say all this Fleener-in-the-first fixation is all about 49er many fans wanting Fleener there because of the Stanford-JH connection, the Stanford playbook familiarity thing. But drafting a player in the 1st who won't be a starter isn't good, for any team. That's a completely logical position people can ignore all they want. I can say that the lack of production of our WR's forced JH & Roman, and even the past ragime, to rely heavily on the TE's, even in 3, 4, and 5 wide sets. That's a logical position that people can dismiss as "trolling" all they want. An argument can be made that JH wants to open the offense up a bit more, especially given we had a lot of trouble scoring last season. There's a reason there'a a difference between TE's and WR's . In the NFL, the offense can only be opened up so much with two talented TE's. In the NFL, at some point the WR position must become a threat or teams will force you to use them. And if you can't then consider yourself exposed. (Again, see the NFC title game.)

More absolutely unsubstantiated and baseless claims....awesome...........by the way, YOU NEED a fullback in your lineup or else you're screwed, just FYI.