Week 14: Thoughts after re-watching the game....

Originally posted by backontop:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by contrarios:
The Cards are running the defense that I envisioned we would be running - pressure coming from all over the place and disrupting offenses. What happened?

Same here...guys running up to the LOS like they are going to blitz, back off at snap or full out blitz, standing up, moving around to create confusion. I personally think we have more talent on defense then them and could be even more effective in a defense like this (e.g. Pittsburgh/Cards).

Not sure why you guys are envious, we have the number one defense in he NFL.....

And how did that #1 defense help us out against the Cards? They racked up 21 points with their back up QB!

"racked up," I can see how 21 points allowed without our All Word middle linebacker could be considered a defensive fail.....racked up......ha!

No doubt they had an off game against one of the greatest WRs in the game, but I wouldn't exactly call it a blow out. Especially when you consider the field positon they put our O in on a number of occassions.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Hey Oak...I don't think anyone would argue the success we have had thus far with running a straight up, base 3-4 defense. And to be fair, like a WCO, it takes a good 2-3 years to fully grasp it and that's with the same players growing together.

But I think where I take objection is that we are into week 15 now and we're playing the same way and teams are figuring it out (like defenses have figured out how to beat our offense). We are seeing teams such as the Cards evolving esp. over the past five games into the defense we thought we'd have installed by now.

We are not evolving and we have the four best combo LBers in the game...best front 7. You literally have Aldon Smith and Ahmad Brooks who can play anywhere on the field; at ILB, OLB, on the DL (inside or outside). You have two big hitters in Goldson and Whitner, amazing quickness and power with Justin Smith and Ray McDonald. You have the two best middle LBers in the game in Bowman and Willis and even Grant isn't a slouch (he already has 1 sack and what, 18 tackles?). There are ENDLESS blitz packages you can use with these guys. Our two CB's play best when they play tight and physical and down hill.

When you give a backup QB all day to throw, don't cover the #1 threat (the only threat) and he has almost 300 yards against your defense off the bench (almost all in the 2nd half), that's on your DC for letting him get comfortable. On the flip side, the Cards NEVER let Alex get comfortable, blitzing over 60% of the time and disguising blitzes close to 100% of the time. They had constant movement pre-snap, guys rushing up, backing off, overloading, causing false starts, forcing us to go to max-protections and giving us essentially ONE OPTION in the RZ. This was the difference in the game...they dictated our offense and forced us to beat them. On the flip side, we sat back and allowed long completions to Fitgerald/Ducet that they turned into long TD's. We played passive hoping they'd make a mistake (and they did with three TO's) yet b/c they were so aggressive on defense, those TO's didn't matter in the end b/c we couldn't score in the RZ. We are also not making any adjustments at halftime like we're seeing with other teams (against us).

At this stage of the season, we should be evolving into a better pressure defense (dictating) and building upon a very solid base defense like what we're seeing in AZ with a Pittsburgh-style defense who is thriving now on scheme alone. Instead, our defense has become vanilla and predictable and our three DL and Brooks are exhausted! That is leaving, even backup QB's who come in off the bench, way too much time to scan through multiple progressions, get comfortable, confident and bold. It also is giving them the W in a critical game!

I understand starting with a base defense, relying on extra DB's to force QB's to throw and make mistakes (TO's) b/c our front 7 is so strong against the run but NOW it's time to start getting more exotic and build upon it b/c come playoff time, sitting back and playing passive will ensure our players are sitting on their couches after the first playoff game.

The bold is very compelling. As you point out, we are just loaded with talent, and by the way, Goldson and Rogers are 4 & 5 on the NFL interception list. What you say makes sense, but its hard to say. Maybe Vic is thinking that if it's not broke, dont fix it? However, mabye this is the reason that defenses got progressively worst every year he was the DC?

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Marvin49:
Agree on most points. The problem tho isn't so much the line in my opinion. I'm not saying they are playing well, I'm just saying teams are stacking the box and blitzing up the middle and the 49ers haven't yet found a way to make them pay for doing it. The Line is getting pushed back because they are CONTANTLY outnumbered.

Disagree on this. They were stacking the box but backpedaling after the snap letting four or five guys rush. That's why Smith couldn't find a quick outlet. They evidently learned from Baltimore.

I agree with your view of the game other than this and am just sad regarding Edwards' play. So much potential wasted...hope it is just an injury and not attitude.

I expect the same from the Steelers also. Hopefully they are working on this.

I'll make a guess, and say that even tho this is Coach Harbaugh's team, he actually lets the OC and DC call the plays. Why? Because at Stanford, the O plays were clever, calculating. If an opponent crowded the OL, box 8, then Harbaugh called for quick outs and slants. If passrush was too overwhelming, the ball was snapped and gone in 2 seconds, 1 step. On D, if the opponent had a burner or a Fitzgerald type, he was negated...be it held up at LOS, doubled, big pass rush...you all know the scenario. What we all have seen and been disappointed by is total lack of unpredictability on both O and D....and that isn't Coach Jim Harbaugh. That is fangio and roman.

I readily admit I have no proof of this, just a suspicion. But if Coach H wants this team to climb off the mat, where we have been left by both Ravens and AZ, then Jim Harbaugh is going to have to coach this team himself, using fangio and roman to sit in the box calling down weaknesses they see, but NOT calling the plays...either O or D. On several occasions, I have seen JH on the headset barking at someone when an O play was plain vanilla in a situation that required a lot more...say in the RZ, for example. On D have noted the same. If Harbaugh wants this team to go big time, then HE is going to have to take over calling the O...and the D. Right now the best guy on the field is apparently not calling the plays, more likely just giving his assent. Harbaugh has a great football mind, (just look at some stanford tapes), but I believe he has delegated the two best things he does...call the O and call the D...to two guys who are not all that talented. Solid, yes, but not crafty, not guys who will pull rabbits out of the hat. If we are to go as far as this team can, a major league restructuring has to take place. The HC is going to have to be a real HC, not a corporate overseer who makes sure the OC and DC are doing their jobs. It seems we agree that we are vanilla, not progressing with intricate blitz packages, not progressing with clever answers to box 8, or as AZ did it, disguising a 5 man rush as a box 8. In short, we are easy to predict, and that is NOT what Harbaugh was known for in college. The guy knows how to coach every position on the field, knows how and when to coach an aggressive D, and a very unpredictable O. It is high time he stops being a manager, and runs both O and D.

We have a problem on both sides of the ball. Coach Harbaugh's signature is on neither. We started off simple on both O and D. Unfortunately we stayed that way. My money is on Coach Harbaugh being Manager Harbaugh. Send Roman and fangio upstairs, and let's see our best man call the O and D... and be HC in the real sense of the word. Sean Payton and Bill Bellicheat are two examples of "running their own teams", or if you wish, calling their own plays. After too many reviews of game tapes that is what I come up with...our HC needs to be running both O and D with hands on...otherwise known as calling all the plays.

It bothers me that this staff and team refuse to make any adjustments. They must feel like every D is as bad as the rams. Slants, screens, draws they are great ways to get a team to dial down there blitzing. Also go back to the true WCO none of this air it out 20 yards down the field s**t we don't have te right QB for that. Run quick routes, curls, slants, ins things like that. 3 step drops. There are ways to deal with the blitz but for some reason we don't adjust. And I expect to see the same crap Monday. And RUN the ball use both Gore nd Hunter


Oh great job as usual Marvin

Why do we throw to Edwards and Ginn in the endzone / redzone?..... ..... Worst hands on the team....

The play is to Crabtree or Williams. THEY WILL CATCH IT! VD has also been good in the redzone at times. During his 965 yard 13 TD year he was. He can be effective there. Albeit not sure handed all the time. But the last 2 guys I draw up the play for and target are Ginn and Edwards.

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by bayniner21:
Marvin if i somehow became NFL networks lead producer Id fire that dumbass jamie dukes and hire you in a heartbeat!!! awesome analysis as always

LOL.....Thanks, but that's a low bar to clear.

He's not saying you can't clear it by a few yards! (probably not pounds though)

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
The bold is very compelling. As you point out, we are just loaded with talent, and by the way, Goldson and Rogers are 4 & 5 on the NFL interception list. What you say makes sense, but its hard to say. Maybe Vic is thinking that if it's not broke, dont fix it? However, mabye this is the reason that defenses got progressively worst every year he was the DC?

Oak, you got me...it seems like we were adding new wrinkles on offense all year until perhaps the last two weeks? But the defense has not added a single wrinkle all year; we don't even utilize the middle LB blitz anymore. I don't consider flip-flopping A.Smith/Brooks a wrinkle either; that's what you're supposed to do with OLBers in the 3-4. No rotation on the DL. When was the last time we saw a CB or even S blitz?

You may be on to something...we are ranked #1 in every important statistical category on defense. I think as fans we expected VF to start with a base and then evolve it into an old Saints or new Steelers/Packers defense where we take it to the next level and not only dominate but dictate what offense try to do to us b/c, certainly, we have the talent/personnel to do it.

Let's just hope this trend doesn't continue on defense (and offense).

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
The bold is very compelling. As you point out, we are just loaded with talent, and by the way, Goldson and Rogers are 4 & 5 on the NFL interception list. What you say makes sense, but its hard to say. Maybe Vic is thinking that if it's not broke, dont fix it? However, mabye this is the reason that defenses got progressively worst every year he was the DC?

Oak, you got me...it seems like we were adding new wrinkles on offense all year until perhaps the last two weeks? But the defense has not added a single wrinkle all year; we don't even utilize the middle LB blitz anymore. I don't consider flip-flopping A.Smith/Brooks a wrinkle either; that's what you're supposed to do with OLBers in the 3-4. No rotation on the DL. When was the last time we saw a CB or even S blitz?

You may be on to something...we are ranked #1 in every important statistical category on defense. I think as fans we expected VF to start with a base and then evolve it into an old Saints or new Steelers/Packers defense where we take it to the next level and not only dominate but dictate what offense try to do to us b/c, certainly, we have the talent/personnel to do it.

Let's just hope this trend doesn't continue on defense (and offense).

I don't think there's anything wrong. Goldson made a big mistake and Grant cannot fill Willis' shoes in the passing game. Willis could have deflected one of those long passes and/or made the tackle after the catch. He has chased down WR/TE many times.

Great breakdown. As disappointed as I was as the offense (or lack there of) in the game...I would rather learn about our weaknesses now than in the playoffs.

Originally posted by Nes49:
Great breakdown. As disappointed as I was as the offense (or lack there of) in the game...I would rather learn about our weaknesses now than in the playoffs.

We clearly went all out with our passing game. I think Harbaugh knows the importance of it in the playoffs and is trying to get it going.

Originally posted by ChazBoner:

Originally posted by Nes49:
Great breakdown. As disappointed as I was as the offense (or lack there of) in the game...I would rather learn about our weaknesses now than in the playoffs.

We clearly went all out with our passing game. I think Harbaugh knows the importance of it in the playoffs and is trying to get it going.

In time, the passing game will come along. Better figure out now what the players can & can't do.

Originally posted by Marvin49:
Smith does have 2 options at the line, but that doesn't mean that one of those options can account for all manner of blitz. He did see the blitz coming a number of times on Sunday and checked to an outside run or a quick pass outside.

The problem is that the pursuit got to the outside runs and 6'8" Calais Campbell got his mitts on the ball a few times when passed outside.

I'm not saying Arizona is a great team, but they do have a fiarly unique matchup defensively. Their LBs are FAST and can pursue. They have a very stout D-Line.

The DBs aren't great, but Adrian Wilson is IMO the most under-rated Safety in the NFL. Wilson was playing like a mad man.

Bottom line, the Cards played like this was the Super Bowl and the Niners STILL should have won. They dominated the first half and then just couldn't get it together in the second. You are gonna have games like this, particularly when the other team isn't as bad as most believe.

Thank you for that nice piece of perspective Marvin....

Not to downplay any of the comments made thus far in this thread (many of which have shown excellent knowledge)...but...

As I see it, this is the reality...
the Cards probably played their best game in the past couple of years, they were playing at home, against the division leaders, trying to keep a streak of better play going with the head coach undoubtedly in desperation mode because he knows if his team doesn't at least get to 7 or 8 wins this year, he loses the gig...

and...the Niners played one of their worst games of the season...

and they lost by 2 points.

Let's all keep in mind how difficult it is to win consistently in the NFL....especially on the road.

The Saints lost to the beaten up Rams this season...so on any given Sunday.....just saying.

Cheers!

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
I'll make a guess, and say that even tho this is Coach Harbaugh's team, he actually lets the OC and DC call the plays. Why? Because at Stanford, the O plays were clever, calculating. If an opponent crowded the OL, box 8, then Harbaugh called for quick outs and slants. If passrush was too overwhelming, the ball was snapped and gone in 2 seconds, 1 step. On D, if the opponent had a burner or a Fitzgerald type, he was negated...be it held up at LOS, doubled, big pass rush...you all know the scenario. What we all have seen and been disappointed by is total lack of unpredictability on both O and D....and that isn't Coach Jim Harbaugh. That is fangio and roman.

I readily admit I have no proof of this, just a suspicion. But if Coach H wants this team to climb off the mat, where we have been left by both Ravens and AZ, then Jim Harbaugh is going to have to coach this team himself, using fangio and roman to sit in the box calling down weaknesses they see, but NOT calling the plays...either O or D. On several occasions, I have seen JH on the headset barking at someone when an O play was plain vanilla in a situation that required a lot more...say in the RZ, for example. On D have noted the same. If Harbaugh wants this team to go big time, then HE is going to have to take over calling the O...and the D. Right now the best guy on the field is apparently not calling the plays, more likely just giving his assent. Harbaugh has a great football mind, (just look at some stanford tapes), but I believe he has delegated the two best things he does...call the O and call the D...to two guys who are not all that talented. Solid, yes, but not crafty, not guys who will pull rabbits out of the hat. If we are to go as far as this team can, a major league restructuring has to take place. The HC is going to have to be a real HC, not a corporate overseer who makes sure the OC and DC are doing their jobs. It seems we agree that we are vanilla, not progressing with intricate blitz packages, not progressing with clever answers to box 8, or as AZ did it, disguising a 5 man rush as a box 8. In short, we are easy to predict, and that is NOT what Harbaugh was known for in college. The guy knows how to coach every position on the field, knows how and when to coach an aggressive D, and a very unpredictable O. It is high time he stops being a manager, and runs both O and D.

We have a problem on both sides of the ball. Coach Harbaugh's signature is on neither. We started off simple on both O and D. Unfortunately we stayed that way. My money is on Coach Harbaugh being Manager Harbaugh. Send Roman and fangio upstairs, and let's see our best man call the O and D... and be HC in the real sense of the word. Sean Payton and Bill Bellicheat are two examples of "running their own teams", or if you wish, calling their own plays. After too many reviews of game tapes that is what I come up with...our HC needs to be running both O and D with hands on...otherwise known as calling all the plays.

Excellent post, Doc......and I suspect your suspicions are correct. Hopefully, the Niner coaches check into the Zone every now and then.

Originally posted by nw9erfan:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
I'll make a guess, and say that even tho this is Coach Harbaugh's team, he actually lets the OC and DC call the plays. Why? Because at Stanford, the O plays were clever, calculating. If an opponent crowded the OL, box 8, then Harbaugh called for quick outs and slants. If passrush was too overwhelming, the ball was snapped and gone in 2 seconds, 1 step. On D, if the opponent had a burner or a Fitzgerald type, he was negated...be it held up at LOS, doubled, big pass rush...you all know the scenario. What we all have seen and been disappointed by is total lack of unpredictability on both O and D....and that isn't Coach Jim Harbaugh. That is fangio and roman.

I readily admit I have no proof of this, just a suspicion. But if Coach H wants this team to climb off the mat, where we have been left by both Ravens and AZ, then Jim Harbaugh is going to have to coach this team himself, using fangio and roman to sit in the box calling down weaknesses they see, but NOT calling the plays...either O or D. On several occasions, I have seen JH on the headset barking at someone when an O play was plain vanilla in a situation that required a lot more...say in the RZ, for example. On D have noted the same. If Harbaugh wants this team to go big time, then HE is going to have to take over calling the O...and the D. Right now the best guy on the field is apparently not calling the plays, more likely just giving his assent. Harbaugh has a great football mind, (just look at some stanford tapes), but I believe he has delegated the two best things he does...call the O and call the D...to two guys who are not all that talented. Solid, yes, but not crafty, not guys who will pull rabbits out of the hat. If we are to go as far as this team can, a major league restructuring has to take place. The HC is going to have to be a real HC, not a corporate overseer who makes sure the OC and DC are doing their jobs. It seems we agree that we are vanilla, not progressing with intricate blitz packages, not progressing with clever answers to box 8, or as AZ did it, disguising a 5 man rush as a box 8. In short, we are easy to predict, and that is NOT what Harbaugh was known for in college. The guy knows how to coach every position on the field, knows how and when to coach an aggressive D, and a very unpredictable O. It is high time he stops being a manager, and runs both O and D.

We have a problem on both sides of the ball. Coach Harbaugh's signature is on neither. We started off simple on both O and D. Unfortunately we stayed that way. My money is on Coach Harbaugh being Manager Harbaugh. Send Roman and fangio upstairs, and let's see our best man call the O and D... and be HC in the real sense of the word. Sean Payton and Bill Bellicheat are two examples of "running their own teams", or if you wish, calling their own plays. After too many reviews of game tapes that is what I come up with...our HC needs to be running both O and D with hands on...otherwise known as calling all the plays.

Excellent post, Doc......and I suspect your suspicions are correct. Hopefully, the Niner coaches check into the Zone every now and then.

You never know though, a little better execution from the players and maybe this game wasn't lost. If Alex made a couple more throws, if players made some easy catches, if Oline blocked properly, if our DB's didn't get out played, if our LB's didn't get sucked in on a play action, and so on.

I like what you have to say and agree but at the same time lack of execution seems to be the main problem this team is having. We are shooting ourselves in the foot and not making plays that are there. In the long run though I really think it comes down to every other team in the league has been here before. Harbaugh is a rookie H.C. and he is still learning on the fly. He has made some very questionable calls, but again he's a rookie. This team has never had a chance to install much and is itself learning everything on the fly. Receivers are still out of place, the QB's missing targets, the Oline is missing assignments and maybe it's due to just not knowing enough of the offense.

I just remember Montana saying it takes time. I think right now we are too young in the process, we still don't know how to adjust to a blitz because we haven't learned everything about it(only really seen it twice). We don't run screens because we haven't had a full chance to make them work. People are missing the oppurtunities because they just are unsure of exactly what's going on. Coaches included.

Sadly I don't see us going to the Super Bowl this year. Yeah there's defiantly a chance, but we are facing teams that have been together for years now. They know how to adjust to certain circumstances, because they have been there. We still are young and talented, but I think it's going to take a good off season to really see what this team is about. An off season where we can learn how to better approach the blitz's, get better knowledge of the playbook, and players can get comfortable in their roles. It will do this team wonders.