effect of switch of soapaga for franklin

Originally posted by jimmy49erfan:

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by AKfanster:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Originally posted by OptimusPrime52:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:
You can say anything you want about Franklin but there was a reason that he was the NT and Sopoaga wasn't. You guys that are dogging on him just plain do not get what a NT is supposed to do. Unless Sopoage is able to elevate his game to another level, you will miss the guy.

yeah because soap could play de and nobody else could. thats the only reason why. when soap was at nt we played a 2 gap system which isnt soaps game. but once we switched to a 1 gap scheme that reopened the door for soap at nt. he is much quicker and more explosive then franklin and i expect him to make a bigger impact then franklin and his subpar 2010 season.

Hope your right, but there is a reason Franklin is acknowledged as one of the best NT and Sopoaga is a 330 pound end. We have had an end that will probably be better at end than Sopoaga was in Ray McDonald.

RayMac WASN'T better than Soap at DE, he would have been starting if he was. It's funny, it seems some people forget EVERY YEAR. RayMac should have been starting long before this season, but he was never able to win the starting spot. He is soft against the run, that is the main reason he hasn't been a starter. He also is very injury prone, I'll be surprised if RayMac starts every game......

As far as Soap playing NT, we'll see how it works...

Yes, the run defense will be horrible this season IMO. No matter how you look at it, the team is bound to give up more yards.
No Franklin
No TKO
RayMac starting at DE
No Clements (great vs the run)

very injury prone....? Do you have any proof of that

McDonald fell to the third round of the 2007 draft in part because of concerns over an ACL injury. McDonald had surgery following the 2008 season to correct the issue and played in every game the last two seasons. At 6-3, 290 pounds, McDonald's best position appears to be as a 3-4 defensive end or as a penetrating defensive tackle in a 4-3 scheme. McDonald lives in the San Jose area and has been part of the group of a dozen or so 49ers who have worked out regularly at San Jose State during the lockout.

Read more: http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archives/2011/06/ray-mcdonald-i.html#ixzz1U0Wk4Ytb

so because he had surgery 3 years ago he is injury prone?

Originally posted by oldman9er:
Sopoaga should be a better 1-gap penetrator and should even be better at driving the center back into the pocket when required to. He is quicker off the snap and even stronger. Where he gives up a bit is in his use of leverage and play diagnosis... but there's no reason to think those aspects haven't improved over time.

Should get more disruption to the interior pocket to make a better difference in the pass rush. Yes, we may lose a bit vs the run though.

Sounds reasonable, and it's been said before (particularly the strength part). When Soap was at the nose a few years ago. He didn't light it up. I would be pleasantly surprised if he turns out to be an upgrade over Franklin. It could happen, but I wouldn't bank on it, and I am hopeful it does. He was pushed off the line quite a bit when he was tried there before.

[ Edited by Blitz on Aug 3, 2011 at 15:36:40 ]

Originally posted by OptimusPrime52:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:
You can say anything you want about Franklin but there was a reason that he was the NT and Sopoaga wasn't. You guys that are dogging on him just plain do not get what a NT is supposed to do. Unless Sopoage is able to elevate his game to another level, you will miss the guy.

yeah because soap could play de and nobody else could. thats the only reason why. when soap was at nt we played a 2 gap system which isnt soaps game. but once we switched to a 1 gap scheme that reopened the door for soap at nt. he is much quicker and more explosive then franklin and i expect him to make a bigger impact then franklin and his subpar 2010 season.

The problem is that Soap didn't show quickness or explosion while playing at DE. I believe he was 1-gapping at DE and that didn't seem to help him produce.

Soap, Bowman and Williams are unproven but most likely downgrades to Franklin, Spikes and Goldson. Rogers may be equal to Clements but we were bad in the secondary last season. So, all levels of the defense has been downgraded. At least so far.

Personally, I liked what I saw from Ricky Jean Francois (sp?) last year and I've read that he's taken a big step forward from last year. Wouldnt be surprised to hear more from him. I know he was told to work at NT but has Soap actually been NAMED the starter there? Can anyone elaborate on RJF strengths/weakness?

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Originally posted by OptimusPrime52:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:
You can say anything you want about Franklin but there was a reason that he was the NT and Sopoaga wasn't. You guys that are dogging on him just plain do not get what a NT is supposed to do. Unless Sopoage is able to elevate his game to another level, you will miss the guy.

yeah because soap could play de and nobody else could. thats the only reason why. when soap was at nt we played a 2 gap system which isnt soaps game. but once we switched to a 1 gap scheme that reopened the door for soap at nt. he is much quicker and more explosive then franklin and i expect him to make a bigger impact then franklin and his subpar 2010 season.

Hope your right, but there is a reason Franklin is acknowledged as one of the best NT and Sopoaga is a 330 pound end. We have had an end that will probably be better at end than Sopoaga was in Ray McDonald.

That is true which may be the reason why Ray negotiated starter money. As for SOAP, the jury is really out on him. He has the physical tools and knows what he wants to accomplish. This will be the year to determine if he lives up to his potential. IMO, he was not a very good DE and was even worst at NT the last time. Hopefully he has a better grasp on how to play the position.

Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:

Originally posted by OptimusPrime52:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:
You can say anything you want about Franklin but there was a reason that he was the NT and Sopoaga wasn't. You guys that are dogging on him just plain do not get what a NT is supposed to do. Unless Sopoage is able to elevate his game to another level, you will miss the guy.

yeah because soap could play de and nobody else could. thats the only reason why. when soap was at nt we played a 2 gap system which isnt soaps game. but once we switched to a 1 gap scheme that reopened the door for soap at nt. he is much quicker and more explosive then franklin and i expect him to make a bigger impact then franklin and his subpar 2010 season.

The problem is that Soap didn't show quickness or explosion while playing at DE. I believe he was 1-gapping at DE and that didn't seem to help him produce.

Soap, Bowman and Williams are unproven but most likely downgrades to Franklin, Spikes and Goldson. Rogers may be equal to Clements but we were bad in the secondary last season. So, all levels of the defense has been downgraded. At least so far.

It would appear that way on paper. But I think the wild card is Aldon Smith. If he is good and consistent, that could actually translate into improvement overall, despite what it seems on paper.

For this team, the addition of a good, consistent rush OLB will make a BIG difference on the D at all three levels.

Originally posted by ttime:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Originally posted by OptimusPrime52:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:
You can say anything you want about Franklin but there was a reason that he was the NT and Sopoaga wasn't. You guys that are dogging on him just plain do not get what a NT is supposed to do. Unless Sopoage is able to elevate his game to another level, you will miss the guy.

yeah because soap could play de and nobody else could. thats the only reason why. when soap was at nt we played a 2 gap system which isnt soaps game. but once we switched to a 1 gap scheme that reopened the door for soap at nt. he is much quicker and more explosive then franklin and i expect him to make a bigger impact then franklin and his subpar 2010 season.

Hope your right, but there is a reason Franklin is acknowledged as one of the best NT and Sopoaga is a 330 pound end. We have had an end that will probably be better at end than Sopoaga was in Ray McDonald.

That is true which may be the reason why Ray negotiated starter money. As for SOAP, the jury is really out on him. He has the physical tools and knows what he wants to accomplish. This will be the year to determine if he lives up to his potential. IMO, he was not a very good DE and was even worst at NT the last time. Hopefully he has a better grasp on how to play the position.

Yeha that's what I am hoping for....that the few more years of experience he has gained playing in the league, will produce a better result for him and us this time with him at the nose.

Last time, the dude was just knocked into the next county consistently by the Oline. He was constantly pushed 5 yards back, and holes the size of Montana were opened. Teams ran all over us.

A few things...

- Sopoaga is now at 320 lbs and in excellent shape. I don't like to see anyone try and make him look like a fat slob or embellish his size. Sorry if that wasn't the intent behind that.

- Sopoaga was primarily 2 gapping the LDE spot. Why? Because the other DL were crashing gaps and someone had to be the wall on the strong side. Sopoaga was there to anchor and soak up blockers. This is why you didn't often see him slipping through a gap to get after the QB much.

- Sopoaga was pushed off the LOS back in the Nolan days as a NT. Why? He was asked to be a 2 gap NT. Why did he fail at that? A couple of reasons... (1) he was very slow to identify the play direction (2) he came into the league very raw in terms of technique, hand placement, and leverage. He generally just got by on his strength and quickness... can't do that as a 2 gap NT, so the NFL was a rude awakening.

- How could Sopoaga NOT be an upgrade to Franklin as far as the pass rush goes? How often did we see Franklin slip through a gap and disrupt the QB pocket? He would lock up with C or G and go nowhere... was quite useless on passing downs.

- When Ray came in for Sopoaga at LDE, it was for pass rush benefits. He simply has better natural pass rush skills... however is much weaker vs the run game than Sopo.

- There is a grotesque amount of BS flying around about Sopoaga being annihilated backwards off the LOS. It's all just wild opinions, so why not, I'll throw mine in too.

Originally posted by oldman9er:
A few things...

- Sopoaga is now at 320 lbs and in excellent shape. I don't like to see anyone try and make him look like a fat slob or embellish his size. Sorry if that wasn't the intent behind that.

- Sopoaga was primarily 2 gapping the LDE spot. Why? Because the other DL were crashing gaps and someone had to be the wall on the strong side. Sopoaga was there to anchor and soak up blockers. This is why you didn't often see him slipping through a gap to get after the QB much.

- Sopoaga was pushed off the LOS back in the Nolan days as a NT. Why? He was asked to be a 2 gap NT. Why did he fail at that? A couple of reasons... (1) he was very slow to identify the play direction (2) he came into the league very raw in terms of technique, hand placement, and leverage. He generally just got by on his strength and quickness... can't do that as a 2 gap NT, so the NFL was a rude awakening.

- How could Sopoaga NOT be an upgrade to Franklin as far as the pass rush goes? How often did we see Franklin slip through a gap and disrupt the QB pocket? He would lock up with C or G and go nowhere... was quite useless on passing downs.

- When Ray came in for Sopoaga at LDE, it was for pass rush benefits. He simply has better natural pass rush skills... however is much weaker vs the run game than Sopo.

- There is a grotesque amount of BS flying around about Sopoaga being annihilated backwards off the LOS. It's all just wild opinions, so why not, I'll throw mine in too.

I'll tell you why he may not be an upgrade, because he SUCKED at it before.

And no, it's not wild opinions, I watched him play it, along with a lot of others, and he sucked at it...which is why the first chance we had to insert Franklin, we did.

I am not even sure if you watched him play NT a few years back?

Anyway, I hope the guy does well, I really do. BUT.... no amount of on paper analysis about his strength, weight, scheme, technique, blah blah blah is going to make him better at the nose than he has been before. He will either be better or he will get his ass blown off the line again. He couldn't take and HOLD a double for s**t before, I have no reason to believe he can now, although he may. He was a disappointment at the nose, we heard all the arguments about how he should excel at end when he was moved there after that,he was OK LDE and nothing special...we have heard all these arguments before...and he HAS never lived up to being a great player, or even a somewhat special palyer at either position. He is a powerful SOB, but it hasn't translated to anything special. I will be happy if he can just stand his ground this time around at the nose, that will be much improvement over his last attempt, because he sure as hell was getting his ass pushed back several yards last time around.


Maybe this time he can hold the point and maybe even get up field a bit. However, if his past is prologue, Soap is NOT going to be an upgrade over Franklin.

[ Edited by Blitz on Aug 3, 2011 at 17:07:12 ]

Originally posted by Blitz:


I'll tell you why he may not be an upgrade, because he SUCKED at it before.

Haha, you still have NO clue as to the difference between a 1 gap and 2 gap NT... do you?

Forget it... just educate yourself, because this lack of recognition just kills any true discussion.

Originally posted by hofer36:
is soap more of a 2 gapper (hold the olin up rather than shoot the gaps), and franklin more of a penetrator (1 gapper)

From what I remember Franklin rarely penetrated. His job was to take on the C/G and hold his own. Soap I think is more of a perpetrator but can probably hold his own as a 2 gapper.

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by Blitz:


I'll tell you why he may not be an upgrade, because he SUCKED at it before.

Haha, you still have NO clue as to the difference between a 1 gap and 2 gap NT... do you?

Forget it... just educate yourself, because this lack of recognition just kills any true discussion.

.
Dude, don't give me that. I know damn well the difference. Nolan mixed it up and ran both schemes off and on with Soap at the nose, the result was the same.

Me thinks you may have never even watched him play the nose a few years back.

[ Edited by Blitz on Aug 3, 2011 at 17:20:03 ]

Originally posted by Blitz:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by Blitz:


I'll tell you why he may not be an upgrade, because he SUCKED at it before.

Haha, you still have NO clue as to the difference between a 1 gap and 2 gap NT... do you?

Forget it... just educate yourself, because this lack of recognition just kills any true discussion.

.
Dude, don't give me that. I know damn well the difference. Nolan ran both schemes off and on with Soap at the nose, the result was the same.

Me thinks you may have never even watched him play the nose a few years back.

How about we wait an see now that you've each made your opinions known. No point in getting into a heated argument.

Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:

Originally posted by oldman9er:
Sopoaga should be a better 1-gap penetrator and should even be better at driving the center back into the pocket when required to. He is quicker off the snap and even stronger. Where he gives up a bit is in his use of leverage and play diagnosis... but there's no reason to think those aspects haven't improved over time.

Should get more disruption to the interior pocket to make a better difference in the pass rush. Yes, we may lose a bit vs the run though.

Well said. Completely agree.

We will certainly lose at stopping the run without Franklin, Spikes and Lawson but I think the strategy is to improve in the pass rushing department. Whether that is successful is a different story, but that's what I'm thinking the thought process is with the recent moves, or lack thereof.

Agree. Can't wait to see how aggressive this defense is gonna be

Originally posted by Blitz:

Originally posted by oldman9er:

Originally posted by Blitz:


I'll tell you why he may not be an upgrade, because he SUCKED at it before.

Haha, you still have NO clue as to the difference between a 1 gap and 2 gap NT... do you?

Forget it... just educate yourself, because this lack of recognition just kills any true discussion.

.
Dude, don't give me that. I know damn well the difference. Nolan mixed it up and ran both schemes off and on with Soap at the nose, the result was the same.

Me thinks you may have never even watched him play the nose a few years back.

What you're saying just doesn't make sense. You say "he sucked at it before", but are speaking of a role that he has never played before.

Do you now see the confusion?