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Originally posted by candlestick49er:
Originally posted by andes14:
How is anything I've said in this thread ridiculous? All I'm saying is we ran at a lower rate and passed at a higher rate these last 2 years than the previous 3 and that's clearly the case. There's no way you can spin it where it's not.

Ok I apologize. Forget I said that your posts were ridiculous. This isn't about how your/my posts are ridiculous or not. Lets just stick to the discussion.

You said we ran at a lower rate and passed at a higher rate. I acknowledged that and explained why I thought that happened. Yet once again you dodged my points.

It doesn't even matter why it happened. The bottom line is that it happened. Period. Frank Gore is Frank Gore. With the exception of '06, all his years are relatively similar. So if we weren't efficient in '09/'10, then we also weren't efficient in '07/'08. So it cancels out. We're talking about the same dude here. But we ran him less under Sing than beforehand.
Originally posted by andes14:
It doesn't even matter why it happened. The bottom line is that it happened. Period.

You asked HOW Singletary got his reputation...so I explained that. You asked WHY people say we ran a lot when stats show we passed more...so I explained WHY. Now it doesn't matter why?

You: "Why/how does...?"

Me: "Because..."

You: "It doesn't matter why"

LOL. Wow. No offense, but why did you create a thread asking a question you didn't even want an answer to?

[ Edited by candlestick49er on Jul 31, 2011 at 16:03:09 ]
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Allx9er:
couple reasons why gore didnt get the carries...
1)injury
2)cant get a lot of carries if you cant extend drives
3)cant extend drives if you have a bone head scheme
that includes running your rb into 9 man fronts down after down

Injury has nothing to do with it. I'm talking about carries per game...so if he misses games, that doesn't skew it.

As for extending drives, that's a moot point also- we passed 514 times per season in 09/10. From '06-'08 we passed 488.7 times per season...therefore we actually passed the ball at a higher rate than under Turner/Hostler/Martz.

Bc we got behind early and had to fight back. Offense was too vanilla (Yup i went there l )
Originally posted by andes14:


LOL. Why would you make a point of saying you never said they had a good o-line if you actually did indeed think they had a good o-line. I never in this thread said Joe Montana was a great quarterback, but I still won't say "I never said Joe Montana was a great quarterback" because of what that obviously would imply. So you'd rather have a back-up Joe Schmo in his 5th year, than say Mike Iupati since he's only in his 2nd year? f**k experience. How good and talented you are matters way more than experience. Why was every single analyst and expert on the planet ripping Pittsburgh's o-line if they had a good one? Name one good player from EITHER line in that super bowl. You still haven't. How do TEN dudes combine for ZERO pro-bowls if they had good lines? There's no way...

Ahh! I see a pattern and within the pattern a ray of insight! You ignored the fact that Pitts 1st and 2nd string RBs went down with injuries early in 2008, but insisted the running game was bad because the OLine was bad. Then you changed the subject, misinterpreting along the way.

You disparage experience. How absurd! Iupati will be a better player this year than last or he will be on his way out for lack of progress. He may be a Hall of Famer eventually but last year he was a rookie and made many rookie mistakes...that he admitted, by the way, because he wants to be great.

Rachal is an inigma. He had a bad year but did not come to the summer camps. That's OK as they were not manditory but if I had played as badly as he did, nothing would have kept me from working out with my team mates--to be a part of the unit. He is hanging onto his position by his fingernails.

Davis improved throughout the year and I like him. He just needs to not bite on DE moves to allow them a free path to the QB. Having a vet will help that.

Why was the running game more successful last year? Run blocking is aggressive and more easily learned. You take on the DLman and dictate the action, whereas pass blocking is reactive...more difficult as you can't just hit someone as hard as you can and be done. Both Iapati and Davis were known to be good run blockers and they did OK last year.

Would you rather have an OLine with probowlers or one with two superbowl rings? Which is more important in indicating quality?
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by andes14:


LOL. Why would you make a point of saying you never said they had a good o-line if you actually did indeed think they had a good o-line. I never in this thread said Joe Montana was a great quarterback, but I still won't say "I never said Joe Montana was a great quarterback" because of what that obviously would imply. So you'd rather have a back-up Joe Schmo in his 5th year, than say Mike Iupati since he's only in his 2nd year? f**k experience. How good and talented you are matters way more than experience. Why was every single analyst and expert on the planet ripping Pittsburgh's o-line if they had a good one? Name one good player from EITHER line in that super bowl. You still haven't. How do TEN dudes combine for ZERO pro-bowls if they had good lines? There's no way...

Ahh! I see a pattern and within the pattern a ray of insight! You ignored the fact that Pitts 1st and 2nd string RBs went down with injuries early in 2008, but insisted the running game was bad because the OLine was bad. Then you changed the subject, misinterpreting along the way.

You disparage experience. How absurd! Iupati will be a better player this year than last or he will be on his way out for lack of progress. He may be a Hall of Famer eventually but last year he was a rookie and made many rookie mistakes...that he admitted, by the way, because he wants to be great.

Rachal is an inigma. He had a bad year but did not come to the summer camps. That's OK as they were not manditory but if I had played as badly as he did, nothing would have kept me from working out with my team mates--to be a part of the unit. He is hanging onto his position by his fingernails.

Davis improved throughout the year and I like him. He just needs to not bite on DE moves to allow them a free path to the QB. Having a vet will help that.

Why was the running game more successful last year? Run blocking is aggressive and more easily learned. You take on the DLman and dictate the action, whereas pass blocking is reactive...more difficult as you can't just hit someone as hard as you can and be done. Both Iapati and Davis were known to be good run blockers and they did OK last year.

Would you rather have an OLine with probowlers or one with two superbowl rings? Which is more important in indicating quality?

Again, you fail to name even one of their o-linemen that was good. They won that ring despite the line, not because of it. Teams win rings, individuals make pro-bowls. Would you rather have Darnell Stapleton over Steve Hutchinson because Stapleton has jewelry and Hutch doesn't? Of course not. So yes, pro-bowls are more indicative of individual success than rings. Every single expert was ripping their o-line...why would they do that if they were good? Why do you continually fail to name one starting offensive lineman from EITHER team that was good? Why did Willie Parker run for nearly a full yard more per carry during their first super bowl run? Because they had a real nice o-line with guys like Faneca, Hartings, and Marvel Smith. Again, name one good o-lineman on the '08 squad. I know Justin Hartwig and Darnell Stapleton are seemingly canton-bound in your head, but no one else agrees with that sentiment.
Originally posted by candlestick49er:
Originally posted by andes14:
It doesn't even matter why it happened. The bottom line is that it happened. Period.

You asked HOW Singletary got his reputation...so I explained that. You asked WHY people say we ran a lot when stats show we passed more...so I explained WHY. Now it doesn't matter why?

You: "Why/how does...?"

Me: "Because..."

You: "It doesn't matter why"

LOL. Wow. No offense, but why did you create a thread asking a question you didn't even want an answer to?

So are you trying to say the last 2 years Gore was far less efficient running the ball than before? Because he wasn't. So if by your definition he was inefficient the last couple years, then he also was before, and so it cancels out.
Originally posted by Squidp:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Allx9er:
couple reasons why gore didnt get the carries...
1)injury
2)cant get a lot of carries if you cant extend drives
3)cant extend drives if you have a bone head scheme
that includes running your rb into 9 man fronts down after down

Injury has nothing to do with it. I'm talking about carries per game...so if he misses games, that doesn't skew it.

As for extending drives, that's a moot point also- we passed 514 times per season in 09/10. From '06-'08 we passed 488.7 times per season...therefore we actually passed the ball at a higher rate than under Turner/Hostler/Martz.

Bc we got behind early and had to fight back. Offense was too vanilla (Yup i went there l )

We got behind early and had to fight back even more often from '06-'08 so it's irrelevant.
Originally posted by andes14:
So are you trying to say the last 2 years Gore was far less efficient running the ball than before? Because he wasn't. So if by your definition he was inefficient the last couple years, then he also was before, and so it cancels out.

No, I'm not saying that the last 2 years Gore was less efficient than before. I'm saying that our running game during 07-10 was inefficient, period. The reason I brought up efficiency was to show you why we ranked so low in rushing attempts. From 07-10, the 49ers finished 25th, 27th twice, and 30th in the league in rushing attempts. We didn't/couldn't run more often because we WERE NOT efficient...which is why we ranked in the bottom third of the league each of those years.

It doesn't matter if he was more/less efficient because the bottom line is that he wasn't effective in any of those seasons. So yes...they should cancel out in terms of arguing the ratio of runs to passes. But I never argued that point anyways. You brought up the fact that the 49ers finished almost last in rushing attempts, so I used efficiency to explain why that was the case. I never used efficiency to argue the RATIO of runs to passes.


Originally posted by andes14:
Frank Gore is Frank Gore. With the exception of '06, all his years are relatively similar. So if we weren't efficient in '09/'10, then we also weren't efficient in '07/'08. So it cancels out. We're talking about the same dude here. But we ran him less under Sing than beforehand.

Wow, I don't know why I didn't do this in the beginning. I calculated the stats myself. This is what the stats show...

(All of the following stats are based on the link you provided)

SEASONS-----GP-----ATT-----CARRIES PER GAME
07-08------------29------500----------17.2
09-10------------24------431----------18.0 (The 2010 Vikings game was removed because Gore only played 1 snap due to injury)

Gore ran MORE under Singletary compared to previous seasons.

"Well, thats ridiculous! You can't just look at Gore's carries per game. You have to look at the entire team and the ratio of runs to passes."


SEASONS-----RUN PLAYS----TOTAL PLAYS-----% OF RUNS
07-08--------------754-------------1776-------------------42%
09-10--------------772-------------1800-------------------43%

The team ran MORE under Singletary compared to previous seasons.

"Well, thats ridiculous! If you look at the ratio of runs to passes, you shouldn't include QB runs. QB runs should count as pass attempts."


SEASONS-----RUN PLAYS (not including QB rushes)----TOTAL PLAYS-----% OF RUNS
07-08-----------------------------665-------------------------------------1776----------------37%
09-10-----------------------------699-------------------------------------1800----------------39%

The team ran MORE under Singletary (counting QB runs as pass attempts) compared to previous seasons.

"Well, it doesn't matter. That's the bottom line. Period."

Anything else?
Originally posted by candlestick49er:
Originally posted by andes14:
It doesn't even matter why it happened. The bottom line is that it happened. Period.

You asked HOW Singletary got his reputation...so I explained that. You asked WHY people say we ran a lot when stats show we passed more...so I explained WHY. Now it doesn't matter why?

You: "Why/how does...?"

Me: "Because..."

You: "It doesn't matter why"

LOL. Wow. No offense, but why did you create a thread asking a question you didn't even want an answer to?

LOL
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by blizzuntz:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by blizzuntz:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by blizzuntz:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by blizzuntz:
Originally posted by blizzuntz:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by blizzuntz:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by blizzuntz:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by blizzuntz:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by blizzuntz:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by blizzuntz:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by blizzuntz:
Originally posted by andes14:
get the reputation as a guy that does nothing but run the ball? Gore averaged fewer carries per game with Singletary as HC in 09/10 than he did in 06/07/08 with Turner/Hostler/Martz running the offense...I never understood how there are all these articles talking about how all Sing did was run, run, run despite 8 and 9 men in the box. The stats just don't back that up.

he got few carries bc the drives fizzled out from 3 and outs

No that's not the reason. We ran more plays than the previous years and we passed at a higher rate as well. 3 and outs/total plays had NOTHING to do with it.

we passed the ball when we were down by 28 in the second half

And we ran the ball when we were down by 28 in the second half from '06-'08? Not to mention, we were down big way more often from '06-'08 than we were in '09/'10.

you honestly dont remember all the times we called the same run play on 1st and 2nd down that set us up for the long 3rd down?

really?

If it happened as often as you think it did, the run/pass ratio would reflect that. But it doesn't.

why dont you look up how much we passed the ball in the 1st half vs the second half. im going to guess we passed much more in the 2nd half against prevent defense

In the '09 and '10 seasons combined, Gore had only 2 more carries in the 1st half then 2nd half. That has been said 100 times in this thread. Next.

i didnt ask how many carries Gore had in each half

Ya, you kinda did indirectly. If Gore carried the ball essentially the same amount in both halves, we clearly didn't enter the "pass much more" mode in the 2nd half. More running=less passing and vice versa. Not too complex of a concept.

by looking at how much we pass in the 2nd half vs 1st half, you would see that we passed more in the 2nd half against prevent defense. Drives were sustained longer bc we were up against a lot of prevent defense. A lot of passing plays were called when we were losing at the end of games. I hope that isnt too complex of a concept.

LOL- then why does Smith have more 1st half pass attempts over the last 2 years than 2nd half pass attempts? Riddle me that...

in 2010 he had more pass attempts in the 2nd half

he had 95 total pass attempts when we were ahead, 202 when were behind

Ya, and Matt Schaub had 90 pass attempts when winning and 381 when behind

What's your point? All teams throw more when trailing...

That is why the ratio you are talking about doesnt reflect Singletary run first mentality. We passed more bc of the fact that is what teams do to put points on the board when they are behind. If we were in more games or ahead, the ratio most likely would be a much different ratio favoring the run game

Yes, but we were behind even more often from '06-'08 yet still passed the ball at a lower rate and ran it at a higher rate back then than we did these past 2 years...

ok who cares about other coaches? This thread is about Singletary and last year

The ORIGINAL point was that I didn't think it made sense that he had the reputation given that we passed more and ran less under him than we did from '06-'08 with Turner/Hostler/Martz running the offense, so no, the thread is not just about last year. It's about comparing the last 2 years with the previous 3.

thats pretty stupid to give credit to singletary for 2 years of coaching

its also stupid considering Singletary say in the offensive play calling decreased as his career went on to the eventual firing.

he also has the reputation bc he has said it himself that he likes to run the ball

Mike Martz also said it himself that JT O'Sullivan was the best QB he ever coached. Doesn't make it true.

that is one solid argument there
Can this fail of a thread just die?
Originally posted by wolfpack52:
Can this fail of a thread just die?




































































Originally posted by wolfpack52:
Can this fail of a thread just die?

I'm actually interested to see the OP's response to the fact that the 49ers DID run more under Singletary in 09-10 compared to 07-08.
Originally posted by candlestick49er:
Originally posted by andes14:
So are you trying to say the last 2 years Gore was far less efficient running the ball than before? Because he wasn't. So if by your definition he was inefficient the last couple years, then he also was before, and so it cancels out.

No, I'm not saying that the last 2 years Gore was less efficient than before. I'm saying that our running game during 07-10 was inefficient, period. The reason I brought up efficiency was to show you why we ranked so low in rushing attempts. From 07-10, the 49ers finished 25th, 27th twice, and 30th in the league in rushing attempts. We didn't/couldn't run more often because we WERE NOT efficient...which is why we ranked in the bottom third of the league each of those years.

It doesn't matter if he was more/less efficient because the bottom line is that he wasn't effective in any of those seasons. So yes...they should cancel out in terms of arguing the ratio of runs to passes. But I never argued that point anyways. You brought up the fact that the 49ers finished almost last in rushing attempts, so I used efficiency to explain why that was the case. I never used efficiency to argue the RATIO of runs to passes.


Originally posted by andes14:
Frank Gore is Frank Gore. With the exception of '06, all his years are relatively similar. So if we weren't efficient in '09/'10, then we also weren't efficient in '07/'08. So it cancels out. We're talking about the same dude here. But we ran him less under Sing than beforehand.

Wow, I don't know why I didn't do this in the beginning. I calculated the stats myself. This is what the stats show...

(All of the following stats are based on the link you provided)

SEASONS-----GP-----ATT-----CARRIES PER GAME
07-08------------29------500----------17.2
09-10------------24------431----------18.0 (The 2010 Vikings game was removed because Gore only played 1 snap due to injury)

Gore ran MORE under Singletary compared to previous seasons.

"Well, thats ridiculous! You can't just look at Gore's carries per game. You have to look at the entire team and the ratio of runs to passes."


SEASONS-----RUN PLAYS----TOTAL PLAYS-----% OF RUNS
07-08--------------754-------------1776-------------------42%
09-10--------------772-------------1800-------------------43%

The team ran MORE under Singletary compared to previous seasons.

"Well, thats ridiculous! If you look at the ratio of runs to passes, you shouldn't include QB runs. QB runs should count as pass attempts."


SEASONS-----RUN PLAYS (not including QB rushes)----TOTAL PLAYS-----% OF RUNS
07-08-----------------------------665-------------------------------------1776----------------37%
09-10-----------------------------699-------------------------------------1800----------------39%

The team ran MORE under Singletary (counting QB runs as pass attempts) compared to previous seasons.

"Well, it doesn't matter. That's the bottom line. Period."

Anything else?

But considering our yards per carry rankings compared vs. our yards per pass attempt rankings AS WELL AS the fact that our rushing yardage ranking was higher than our rush attempt ranking, we were not as inefficient as you claim. As for those figures on '07/'08 vs. '09/'10, my original argument included '06. But even if it didn't the fact that the Singletary figures are withing a percent or 2 of the pre-Singletary figures, that alone should convey that the difference isn't egregious enough for Sing to deserve the running reputation that he has, esp. when you consider that we were playing catchup even MORESO pre-Sing which padded the passing stats. People keep thinking playing catch up with Sing padded the passing stats but it's the complete opposite. We had larger and more frequent deficits before him so it was THOSE figures that got padded, which is more than responsible for any negligible statistical difference, which, again, doesn't even exist if you factor in '06.
Originally posted by blizzuntz:
Originally posted by wolfpack52:
Can this fail of a thread just die?





































































Bro, if you don't like the thread, just ignore it and don't post in it. Your life will carry on just the same, trust me.
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