The Definition and Continuance of Team Losses

Very much agree. I'm amazed at the total lack of coherence and emotional outbursts on this board. It is plain to see that we have serious systemic issues and most on this board cannot see. They simplistically point to one person and refuse to see how broad and deep our issues are.

Until we implement a system, an identity, an aura of order and inevitability, we will continue to wander aimlessly.

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by dj43:
Scot Pioli in Kansas City has proven why a football GM is the most important piece of the puzzle.

KC has been a bad team for a long time. Then Pioli arrives, brings in a new coach with a solid background and progressive ideas, drafts good players, makes good FA decisions, and the team has gone from BAD to pretty good. All this happened in just two years.

To me, the system is more important than the individual parts. To see a team like the Bucs, who start 6 rookies, including free agent players, become productive on the field, proves that the system is key. The Colts OL shows that every year as well. Most of the guys are journeymen players.

Until we have a solid system on offense and defense, this is never going to work. So, let's go out there and get football guys who can run a franchise, and coaches who can run a system.

Maddog, do you even think real football GM and Coach candidates even want to work with the present 49er Management. The "front office" reminds me of Corporate America (or the old Bell System) where you have a VP for everything including the one who brings the snacks to the Organizational meetings.

This kind of crap doesn't even work in big Corporations anymore, and that is what we have. Couple that with the fact (and what a time of year to call this out) that the present ownership reminds us of Ebenezer Scrooge when it comes to paying coaches and GMs.

Maybe over the Christmas season, the Yorks will be invited to the Cratchetts, and they'll discover Tiny Tim.

I have been a fan of this team for well over 35 years, and even in the late 70s I believe we had more of a glimmer of hope than we have now.

Yes, you can't change ownership, but maybe the fans ought to have their own "collective bargaining agreement" when it comes to the crappy product the franchise delivers.

Originally posted by nvninerfan1:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by dj43:
Scot Pioli in Kansas City has proven why a football GM is the most important piece of the puzzle.

KC has been a bad team for a long time. Then Pioli arrives, brings in a new coach with a solid background and progressive ideas, drafts good players, makes good FA decisions, and the team has gone from BAD to pretty good. All this happened in just two years.

To me, the system is more important than the individual parts. To see a team like the Bucs, who start 6 rookies, including free agent players, become productive on the field, proves that the system is key. The Colts OL shows that every year as well. Most of the guys are journeymen players.

Until we have a solid system on offense and defense, this is never going to work. So, let's go out there and get football guys who can run a franchise, and coaches who can run a system.

Maddog, do you even think real football GM and Coach candidates even want to work with the present 49er Management. The "front office" reminds me of Corporate America (or the old Bell System) where you have a VP for everything including the one who brings the snacks to the Organizational meetings.

This kind of crap doesn't even work in big Corporations anymore, and that is what we have. Couple that with the fact (and what a time of year to call this out) that the present ownership reminds us of Ebenezer Scrooge when it comes to paying coaches and GMs.

Maybe over the Christmas season, the Yorks will be invited to the Cratchetts, and they'll discover Tiny Tim.

I have been a fan of this team for well over 35 years, and even in the late 70s I believe we had more of a glimmer of hope than we have now.

Yes, you can't change ownership, but maybe the fans ought to have their own "collective bargaining agreement" when it comes to the crappy product the franchise delivers.

I like the fan collective bargaining agreement. As for the Niners, the name brand alone draws lots of interest. Who wouldn't want to be a part of the history of Walsh, Montana, Rice, Lott, Young?

Plus, coaches are egocentric. They all think they can turn something around, even if it is smelly, stinky. The only question will be how much power they are willing to hand to the coach and what form of GM we will possess. If the Niners brass tries to be stingy in handing power to current outsiders, there may not be too many takers.

The bottom line is that Jed has to get a new stadium and the easiest way to do it is to hire a winner. I bet he lays some money on the table for a proven coach, or goes after an elite college coach.

lots of good points in this thread.

The Niners do need a football wise GM as the key offseason hire--then let this guy build the team from the coaches to the players.

I think Jed and that guy Paarage Marathe are buddies--and that is bad news--this Paarage guy is an Ivy league MBA type---not a football person.

We need more football people running the show--not Paarage and Jed.

I love Mary Shottenheimer as a coach also--he may be too old now? and he has failed in the playoffs--but he always knows how to build a team to a competitive state.

Jim Harbuagh is my first choice.

we really need a new QB---Alex in 6 years has never brought a team back to win---he fails under the pressure---he doesn't thrive--he is like the anti Montana.

The O line I think will be OK--growing pains.
we need a # 1 WR--with Crabtree # 2---or trade him if the Diva in him won't accept that.

defense is where this team really needs players---especially pass rushers from the D line and the secondary---and another fast OLB would help.

A team can have some good players--but if they don't mesh together--it doesn't really matter---get a football GM to build a team where the pieces fit together like a puzzle!

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by dj43:
Scot Pioli in Kansas City has proven why a football GM is the most important piece of the puzzle.

KC has been a bad team for a long time. Then Pioli arrives, brings in a new coach with a solid background and progressive ideas, drafts good players, makes good FA decisions, and the team has gone from BAD to pretty good. All this happened in just two years.

To me, the system is more important than the individual parts. To see a team like the Bucs, who start 6 rookies, including free agent players, become productive on the field, proves that the system is key. The Colts OL shows that every year as well. Most of the guys are journeymen players.

Until we have a solid system on offense and defense, this is never going to work. So, let's go out there and get football guys who can run a franchise, and coaches who can run a system.

No question. This is the 49ers. Nobody knows better in terms of how a franchise should look from top to bottom. I agree with you both esp. re: FO men with vision for today's game and esp. re: system for both offense and defense. The "system" was one of the biggest reasons why a guy could go down to injury in the WCO and another could be plugged in and not miss a beat. But it is also started with FO men who hand-picked these players to fit this system properly and then left for the coaches to develop them and have them prepared.

The SD Chargers with ALL of their personnel changes this year are a perfect example on both points.

Originally posted by sfninerfanMax:
lots of good points in this thread.

The Niners do need a football wise GM as the key offseason hire--then let this guy build the team from the coaches to the players.

I think Jed and that guy Paarage Marathe are buddies--and that is bad news--this Paarage guy is an Ivy league MBA type---not a football person.

We need more football people running the show--not Paarage and Jed.

I love Mary Shottenheimer as a coach also--he may be too old now? and he has failed in the playoffs--but he always knows how to build a team to a competitive state.

Jim Harbuagh is my first choice.

we really need a new QB---Alex in 6 years has never brought a team back to win---he fails under the pressure---he doesn't thrive--he is like the anti Montana.

The O line I think will be OK--growing pains.
we need a # 1 WR--with Crabtree # 2---or trade him if the Diva in him won't accept that.

defense is where this team really needs players---especially pass rushers from the D line and the secondary---and another fast OLB would help.

A team can have some good players--but if they don't mesh together--it doesn't really matter---get a football GM to build a team where the pieces fit together like a puzzle!

Oh please god no. The one thing that drives me crazy about Marty is pretty much the same thing as Sing. They are way to conservative and predictable.

The thing about the 49ers of the 80s and early 90s was that they were not exempt from stomping on the other teams neck.

Everything that's been said throughout this thread is all that really needs to be said. Just wanted to applaud MD for the original post. So easy to focus blame on one failing aspect, but I'm glad that some here can look at the whole picture.

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by dj43:
Scot Pioli in Kansas City has proven why a football GM is the most important piece of the puzzle.

KC has been a bad team for a long time. Then Pioli arrives, brings in a new coach with a solid background and progressive ideas, drafts good players, makes good FA decisions, and the team has gone from BAD to pretty good. All this happened in just two years.

To me, the system is more important than the individual parts. To see a team like the Bucs, who start 6 rookies, including free agent players, become productive on the field, proves that the system is key. The Colts OL shows that every year as well. Most of the guys are journeymen players.

Until we have a solid system on offense and defense, this is never going to work. So, let's go out there and get football guys who can run a franchise, and coaches who can run a system.

This is actually a smart comment

I am going to make another point. The 49ers of the 80s and 90s one with pretty much mediocre O-lineman.

The Pats win with alot of skill position players that other teams would frankly overlook.

The Chiefs are just coming into their own and are doing it with alot of "journeyman" players.

The first two had one thing in common. Strong front office leadership with Owners who cared but stayed out of the way (See, Not Jerry Jones) but provided the funding.
Oh, and they also had good coaches and especially outstanding QBs. It doesn't matter if one HC was an Offensive Genius and the other came from the Defensive side. Heck you don't even need that. Look at the 70s Steelers. Chuck Noll was not necessarily an offensive or defensive genius.

We'll see if the Chiefs become one of those franchises down the road, and am not sure if Cassell is their saviour at QB.

If Jed could hire a decent football front office and a strong HC, then maybe down the road we will find a franchise QB.

I wouldn't worry about that franchise QB next year because:

A) There's only one and we're still not bad enough to get him.

B) We are several rebuilding years away from being truly competitive.

C) The Rams appear to be re-heading to the top of our division with Bradford.

Originally posted by nvninerfan1:
I am going to make another point. The 49ers of the 80s and 90s one with pretty much mediocre O-lineman.

The Pats win with alot of skill position players that other teams would frankly overlook.

The Chiefs are just coming into their own and are doing it with alot of "journeyman" players.

The first two had one thing in common. Strong front office leadership with Owners who cared but stayed out of the way (See, Not Jerry Jones) but provided the funding.
Oh, and they also had good coaches and especially outstanding QBs. It doesn't matter if one HC was an Offensive Genius and the other came from the Defensive side. Heck you don't even need that. Look at the 70s Steelers. Chuck Noll was not necessarily an offensive or defensive genius.

We'll see if the Chiefs become one of those franchises down the road, and am not sure if Cassell is their saviour at QB.

If Jed could hire a decent football front office and a strong HC, then maybe down the road we will find a franchise QB.

I wouldn't worry about that franchise QB next year because:

A) There's only one and we're still not bad enough to get him.

B) We are several rebuilding years away from being truly competitive.

C) The Rams appear to be re-heading to the top of our division with Bradford.

2 years ago when we went to St Louis---the Niners were the team on the rise---now when we head to St Louis Dec 26th---it is the Rams as the team on the rise and the Niners stuck in limbo----the Rams hit the jackpot on the QB--the Niners failed.

Originally posted by sfninerfanMax:

Originally posted by nvninerfan1:
I am going to make another point. The 49ers of the 80s and 90s one with pretty much mediocre O-lineman.

The Pats win with alot of skill position players that other teams would frankly overlook.

The Chiefs are just coming into their own and are doing it with alot of "journeyman" players.

The first two had one thing in common. Strong front office leadership with Owners who cared but stayed out of the way (See, Not Jerry Jones) but provided the funding.
Oh, and they also had good coaches and especially outstanding QBs. It doesn't matter if one HC was an Offensive Genius and the other came from the Defensive side. Heck you don't even need that. Look at the 70s Steelers. Chuck Noll was not necessarily an offensive or defensive genius.

We'll see if the Chiefs become one of those franchises down the road, and am not sure if Cassell is their saviour at QB.

If Jed could hire a decent football front office and a strong HC, then maybe down the road we will find a franchise QB.

I wouldn't worry about that franchise QB next year because:

A) There's only one and we're still not bad enough to get him.

B) We are several rebuilding years away from being truly competitive.

C) The Rams appear to be re-heading to the top of our division with Bradford.

2 years ago when we went to St Louis---the Niners were the team on the rise---now when we head to St Louis Dec 26th---it is the Rams as the team on the rise and the Niners stuck in limbo----the Rams hit the jackpot on the QB--the Niners failed.

I am not even a catholic, but welcome to purgatory.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by dj43:
Scot Pioli in Kansas City has proven why a football GM is the most important piece of the puzzle.

KC has been a bad team for a long time. Then Pioli arrives, brings in a new coach with a solid background and progressive ideas, drafts good players, makes good FA decisions, and the team has gone from BAD to pretty good. All this happened in just two years.

To me, the system is more important than the individual parts. To see a team like the Bucs, who start 6 rookies, including free agent players, become productive on the field, proves that the system is key. The Colts OL shows that every year as well. Most of the guys are journeymen players.

Until we have a solid system on offense and defense, this is never going to work. So, let's go out there and get football guys who can run a franchise, and coaches who can run a system.

No question. This is the 49ers. Nobody knows better in terms of how a franchise should look from top to bottom. I agree with you both esp. re: FO men with vision for today's game and esp. re: system for both offense and defense. The "system" was one of the biggest reasons why a guy could go down to injury in the WCO and another could be plugged in and not miss a beat. But it is also started with FO men who hand-picked these players to fit this system properly and then left for the coaches to develop them and have them prepared.

The SD Chargers with ALL of their personnel changes this year are a perfect example on both points.

The very history of this franchise invites a person with vision and understanding of the culture of winning that this franchise once had to come here and restore it. Who wouldn't want to realize that achievement?

To the point of "the system," although Walsh received much glory for what happened on the field, and Eddie got it for opening the checkbook, it was John McVay that was the glue that held the system together. Without him and his insight and understanding, there would not have been the dynasty that evolved.

That is the kind of guy the Jed needs to find. Someone who can put his ego aside, who doesn't need to be in the spotlight all the time, yet is driven to re-create the magic of the 80s and '90s.

When Walsh and McVay took over, this franchise had just come off some years that were as bad as anything that has happened in the last decade, yet they were glad to come here and turn things around. It can happen again...if Jed does his homework. It doesn't have to happen immediately after the season but he needs to let fans know he is looking for that guy and that HE will hire the new coach...do it right this time.

is it smart for a team to pick a QB somewhere in the draft every year until you get a good one?

draft a QB in the 3rd round, or 4th or 5th or 6th--every year until you find the golden one---then you are set for a few years.

if we have to go through another 5 year plan i swear im going to be SOO Fn PISSED OFF