Is Crabtree Overrated ?

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Sims84:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Sims--"So was Jimmy Raye with his 33 STRAIGHT years in the NFL"

Getting bogged down by the length of the back and forth! Raye was respected as a mid level OC who could straighten out the mess the 9ers were. He turned out to be passed his prime, to say the least. Sullivan had just had some successful years. Plus, if Smith had Raye for an OC for his entire career he might have made more progress...naw...on second thought, never mind!

He was respected for what he did. He was an offensive coordinator which is far more strenuous although not saying more "important" than a position coach and he was very respected around the league. Just like Sullivan was when he came over from Arizona so just because they are respected, doesn't mean they are that great.

In 2004, prior to coming to San Fran, he had Boldin, Fitzgerald and Johnson. Two 1st round picks and a STEAL of a 2nd round pick (Boldin)

To quote Emily Lotilla (sp?)..."Never mind!" Don't want to argue Raye vs Sullivan as neither distinquished himself with the 9ers. Don't want to compare Smith and Crabtree either as they are very different "disappointments" to me. I have hope that Crabtree can be great, while my hope for Smith is diminished, it is still alive.

We can agree to disagree as I also had hopes that Smith would be great. To be honest, I was backing him every year all the way up until that fumble vs the Eagles this season. I kept defending him year in and year out like many on here do but that fumble was the icing on the cake. Then to come back and show resiliency only to fall short, as usual was the straw that broke the camels back.

I am still very high on Crabtree as I have been a fan since 1st year at Texas Tech. ESPN Gameday did a little take on him talking about it being his 1st season playing the WR position and how big his hands were and the cuts his own hair (neither here nor there, just enjoy seeing some of the things people like to do outside of football). Then I started watching more of his games and couldn't help but to be impressed and only WISH the 49ers would be in a position to take him and two years later, we were there. So It will take more than 26 games of pretty DECENT play by the youngster for me to write him off. His ceiling is VERY HIGH as far as talent goes and we just need the right person to bring it out.

Originally posted by Sims84:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Sims84:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Sims84:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Sims84:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Sims84:

Originally posted by backontop:

Originally posted by Sims84:

Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:

Originally posted by sfout:

Originally posted by Sims84:

Originally posted by DaveWilcox:

Originally posted by RedWaltz24:
Does anyone remember what Crabtree's 40 time was again?

He never ran at the combine, he evidently "hurt" his foot and left abruptly.

Personally I think he and his agent knew his 40 time was 4.6+, and his draft stock would take a hit and cost him millions. I think it was a cover story concocted to get him out of running.

When you watch him run anything close to a 9 (GO) route he doesn't get behind defenders. The only way he gets behind defenders is when if the defender bites on a slugo or out route.

Crabtree is not a speedy WR. He has average speed at best.

He ran right past Al Harris on a "Go" route who was already playing 10 yards off the LOS at the snap of the ball for his 1st TD of his career last year

If we actually get a deep threat option Crabs he would do great, we need to get a real deep threat and put K. Williams in the slot, having V.D. on the field at the same time would just be scary.

The question becomes though, how much other stuff does Crabtree need around him to be effective? He's already got a probowl TE out on the field with him in Davis. Now he needs a deep threat to complement him as well? Doesn't sound like much of a WR.

-9fA

An accurate QB will also help. Even a QB who is willing to pull the trigger down the field. He may not be a burner but he has made quite a few big plays in his SHORT career. Give the man a chance if you see one on one down the field

Alex Smith is willing to pull the trigger down the field when he has a HC that isn't going to go ape s**t and drop his pants if he throws anything deeper than 3 yards. It has already been documented that players were playing scared under Singletary. They were scared to make mistakes because the only way Singletary knows how to deal with players is to scream at them on national tv (just look at the Alex Smith, Troy Smith incidences). It's amazing that once Singletary was fired and Tomsula was named the HC Alex Smith took all kinds of chances down field. You don't become the #1 overall draft pick from a spread offense by not "pulling the trigger down field"

Sims you're off your game.

Are you kidding me? ONE game vs the WEAK Cardinals that has you all rowled up?? I said back in week 14 that we will blow out Arizona. It did not matter who was the coach, it was a meaningless game against a HORRIBLE team that we already DESTROYED once and Mike Johnson had NOTHING TO LOSE in his playcalling.

It was also well documented that Jimmy Raye called quite a few verticle routes that Alex NEVER took a shot at so don't give me he was playing scared crap when Troy got in there and immediately started attacking down the field because he could care less. Mike Singletary didn't like it after the Broncos game and what happened, Troy went down the field EVEN MORE the very next game vs the Rams.

And what does him getting drafted #1 overall have anything to do with anything? If we can go back to 2005 with what we know now, Alex would be lucky to get drafted in the LATE 1st round. He was taken by a desperate franchise in a desperate situation and you know this. He was not drafted #1 overall because of pure talent so don't even go there

It has been well-documented by several writers that when Singletary left Tomsula gave Johnson carte blanche to open up the passing game with deeper patterns. Prior to that time, anyone watching could see that there were FAR fewer 12-20 yard patterns and deeper being run by the receivers.

Yes, AZ was a weak team but the plays called against them were VERY different from the ones called before Singletary left.

Again, the QB gets too much credit when things go right and too much blame when they go wrong. In this case, it wasn't just Smith throwing deep balls, it was that Johnson had been allowed to call deeper patterns. Unfortunately, that AZ game was the only game in the past 8 years that we have seen decent talent combined with a decent game plan. We finally had a chance to see what a modern offense could look like if the coach takes off the training wheels on better talent.

I agree the game plan looked good but I also think that is easy to do when have nothing to lose. Look at Dallas. Garrett was their playcaller before Phillips got fired AND after but after they got off to that horrible start and were eliminated with the good play of PHI and NYG, their offense looked totally different. When nothing is on the line, it's easy to call a relaxed game, ESPECIALLY against a horrible opponent.

Mike Johnson was going to pull out all his stops in a nothing to lose game because he knew teams would be looking at him as well as the owners. I give him credit but I called that the moment we lost to the Chargers. I said if we don't win vs STL and we are eliminated, expect us to blow out Arizona and wallah. I'm not fooled one bit. I have seen 8 years worth of meaningless wins and padded stats. I want CONSISTENCY.

Back on subject, Crabtree is not overrated nor is he anywhere close. 26 games 13.3 yards per catch with 4 DIFFERENT QB's throwing his way in less than 2 seasons

You missed the point.

A major part of the deep game was that Nolan/Sing would not allow it, or greatly restricted it. THAT is the point of the AZ game. We heard a mic'ed Singletary calling for safe plays that "favored the run" time after time.

The link back to Crabtree is that he needs a deep threat to open up his shorter game. So that takes a little heat off him. Still, the guy has TONS of room to improve what he does. Technically, he is not a pro receiver. He has quickness and agility but he isn't using it to advantage. A top 10 pick should be much farther along in his technical skills at this point. So while I will lay a part of that off to poor position coaching (how many times have we seen that?), a larger part is the large amount of practice and TC time he has misses.

For a guy that many pro observers had going in the top 3 before his "stress fracture," he IS a disappointment, although he gets a partial pass, even though he doesn't deserve it. He has not come close to fulfilling expectations. Next year is "make it or break it" year for him. I am confident Harbaugh will bring enough credibility and fire to get him into camp and working to finish his game.

That game he was mic'd up was when we blew out the Seahawks I believe. There was no telling when exactly he said that because we don't know how they edited that tape for the show. He could have been saying that after we were up by 3 scores, we don't know.

Crabtree does have a lot to work on because he hasn't had any coach worth a damn to coach him up so he is out there "winging" it and to be able to "come off the streets" as a rookie and just jump right in against veteran NFL corners and put up numbers tells me the kid is special and there is no denying that. This year our season was in turmoil and he had 3 different QB's throw the ball to him. He is a developing receiver and that is a HORRIBLE way to develop a guy. where is the timing? where is the trust? You can't possibly expect it to be there when we are playing musical chairs with the most important position on the field.

And why is next year a make or break year for him? Says who? His 3rd year in the league is "make or break" but his QB's 4th, 5th, and 6th year isn't? That seems odd and little bias to me

As I said, I expect Harbaugh to make a difference with MC.

The difference between Smith and Crabtree is two part; one, Smith has never failed to be in camp working when he has been healthy, Crabtree hasn't. Two, Smith's first two years he had nothing to work with. As Mike Martz put is - subpar. Crabtree has had at least an average QB the last two years though crummy OC.

So next year will be a year for Crabtree to shine. Let's hope he stays healthy.

Crabtree had a contract dispute, VERY NORMAL but just unfortunate. His 2nd year he was hurt. This is the NFL, not High School football, he is a 2nd year player, IF he could play, the coaches would have thrown him out there but it was better to let him sit because ANY neck injury is a serious deal in the NFL, especially when you play WR where you can take vicious hits ANYTIME (Ask Collie) so no, I can't give you "1".

And as for your two, Alex didn't have it THAT hard in his 2nd year His O-line was BETTER than average. Jennings when healthy was pretty good and he played 13 games that season, Larry Allen was on his last leg but still VERY effective, Eric Heitmann, Justin Smiley and then ONE and ONLY weak link, Kwame Harris. Aside from Kwame, the line was GOOD but with Kwame, it was dropped down to "better than average". Then we also added Bryant who was a very good weapon when he was on the field. He just came off a 1,000 yard season the year prior.......with the Browns.........with Trent Dilfer as his QB . Then when he left the 49ers, he was a 1,000 yard receiver the very next year so there is no denying his talent, just too bad Alex couldn't get the most of him . Then, Frank Gore had his best season of his career that year with 2,000 yards from scrimmage. Alex also had two pretty good safety valves in Eric Johnson and Vernon Davis. No Davis was not even close to what he is nowl but let's not sit here and act as if Alex had nothing around him yet he still only looked AVERAGE at best with a GREAT OC.

Crabtree has a lot to prove but to say this is his make or break year when he has only played WR for 2 years and then gets HORRIBLE coaching at this level but his QB who has played the position his whole life gets 9 lives just baffles me

I'm not interested in another Alex Smith thread. I noted the Mike Martz quote about the quality of the supporting cast and you ignored that so I'll just leave it.

As I said, MC gets a partial pass for poor coaching but his extended holdout was far beyond almost any other holdouts thus NOT business as usual It was a deliberate action on his part to salve his ego. Also, it should say a lot about his "neck injury" that after his little tiff with VD he started working again the Tuesday before the league season started and never had any soreness at all. Both the Matts as well as others noted that was a very fast "recovery."

Crabtree is an obviously immature person and unpolished potential talent. Yes, I believe Harbaugh will put it up as a "show time" year for Crabtree. His diva act has begun to over shadow his injury, holdout and poor coaching.

Crabtree HIMSELF said he was ready to play and it was "up to the coaches" and this was right around the 2nd Pre-season game in an interview so he made it public that he was feeling good and wanted to get back out there but the TEAM decided to keep him out, not himself.

What "diva" attitude are you talking about? Lowering his head if there is no room to get around you is a diva? Busting his ass down field each and every play to try to spring a runner loose with a downfield block is a diva? Playing to the whistle each snap is a diva? NO, you just have this "well it was well documented" thing going for you and that makes up your mind thus labeling him a diva because of your first impression.

And him just trying holdout because he was "salve his ego" is ALL PURE speculation on your part. They asked him what it was and he came out publicly and said he just wants to play football and has always just wanted to play football. So let me guess, the next thing you will say is "of course he will say that, why would he just come out and say I want more money blah blah blah" but the moment anyone says bad reports about Alex (baalke's interview), that is "far fetched" but anytime someone says something good (Harbaugh), that is doing the PC thing, he actually means that? If you 20 years old and your agent who has been doing this for a living tells you he can get you more money, I'm sure you would take it. Now look at us, 3 years later and we might not even have a season

You are too bogged down in the Alex Smith comparison. I'll just leave it at; I hope Harbaugh and staff can bring him to maturity next year...as I hope they will do with a number of players who have not played up to their potential.

Agree with Sims84...The diva thing with Crabtree is ridiculous. This guy is constantly busting his tail down field to block and the inept coaching staff wouldn't let him play in the pre-season. Give this guy a good QB and he's ready for 1100-1200 yards. He's not as talented as T.O. was, but he's still a very good receiver who has Anquan Boldin potential.

1- Very shifty and crafty in the open field.

2-Had a down year with his hands, but usually snatches most things his way when he is right

3-Power receiver who doesn't go down at 1st contact

4-Has a burst and acceleration into his 2nd gear once he gets going.

Once he refines his routes with a REAL receiver coach(LOL at Jerry Sullivan) he's going to be a bonafide playmaker.

Originally posted by Sims84:
His ceiling is VERY HIGH as far as talent goes and we just need the right person to bring it out.

Jim f**king Harbaugh!

West Coast Offense!

Originally posted by Wodwo:

Originally posted by Sims84:
His ceiling is VERY HIGH as far as talent goes and we just need the right person to bring it out.

Jim f**king Harbaugh!

West Coast Offense!

Originally posted by Sims84:

Originally posted by Wodwo:

Originally posted by Sims84:
His ceiling is VERY HIGH as far as talent goes and we just need the right person to bring it out.

Jim f**king Harbaugh!

West Coast Offense!

Yep, we got the right coach and system in place. Once we bring in a quality QB, Crabtree's will stock will go up. Book it .

Originally posted by NinerGold39:

Originally posted by Sims84:

Originally posted by Wodwo:

Originally posted by Sims84:
His ceiling is VERY HIGH as far as talent goes and we just need the right person to bring it out.

Jim f**king Harbaugh!

West Coast Offense!

Yep, we got the right coach and system in place. Once we bring in a quality QB, Crabtree's will stock will go up. Book it .

Originally posted by Owens81Owns:
Agree with Sims84...The diva thing with Crabtree is ridiculous. This guy is constantly busting his tail down field to block and the inept coaching staff wouldn't let him play in the pre-season. Give this guy a good QB and he's ready for 1100-1200 yards. He's not as talented as T.O. was, but he's still a very good receiver who has Anquan Boldin potential.

1- Very shifty and crafty in the open field.

2-Had a down year with his hands, but usually snatches most things his way when he is right

3-Power receiver who doesn't go down at 1st contact
4-Has a burst and acceleration into his 2nd gear once he gets going.

Once he refines his routes with a REAL receiver coach(LOL at Jerry Sullivan) he's going to be a bonafide playmaker.

I agree with all of those points but #3 really stands out. Crabtree RARELY goes down on after the 1st hit which is exactly what we need in a WCO. When he catches that slant pattern 7 yards away from the LOS, he has all the ability to turn it into a big gain.

Crabtree is not the 1st guy you'd choose to have running at you in the open field. Ask Harper from the Saints when Crabtree only had A SLIGHT SECOND to react and hit him with a vicious spin move and then ask the Rams Safety who thought he was in position only for Crabtree to hit him with a stutter step AND stiff arm for a 60 yard TD. You can even ask a couple of Eagle defenders who thought they had him pinned along the sideline only to come up and miss consecutive tackles

Originally posted by Sims84:


I agree with all of those points but #3 really stands out. Crabtree RARELY goes down on after the 1st hit which is exactly what we need in a WCO. When he catches that slant pattern 7 yards away from the LOS, he has all the ability to turn it into a big gain.

Crabtree is not the 1st guy you'd choose to have running at you in the open field. Ask Harper from the Saints when Crabtree only had A SLIGHT SECOND to react and hit him with a vicious spin move and then ask the Rams Safety who thought he was in position only for Crabtree to hit him with a stutter step AND stiff arm for a 60 yard TD. You can even ask a couple of Eagle defenders who thought they had him pinned along the sideline only to come up and miss consecutive tackles

Speaking of slants and arms....

Crabtree has freakishly long arms. Great weapon for beating the jam at the line on the quick slant and then reaching in front of him to catch the pass that should be placed to lead him into open space for monster YAC.

Originally posted by Wodwo:

Originally posted by Sims84:


I agree with all of those points but #3 really stands out. Crabtree RARELY goes down on after the 1st hit which is exactly what we need in a WCO. When he catches that slant pattern 7 yards away from the LOS, he has all the ability to turn it into a big gain.

Crabtree is not the 1st guy you'd choose to have running at you in the open field. Ask Harper from the Saints when Crabtree only had A SLIGHT SECOND to react and hit him with a vicious spin move and then ask the Rams Safety who thought he was in position only for Crabtree to hit him with a stutter step AND stiff arm for a 60 yard TD. You can even ask a couple of Eagle defenders who thought they had him pinned along the sideline only to come up and miss consecutive tackles

Speaking of slants and arms....

Crabtree has freakishly long arms. Great weapon for beating the jam at the line on the quick slant and then reaching in front of him to catch the pass that should be placed to lead him into open space for monster YAC.

which is why you don't have to have the strongest arm, as long as you know how to get ride of the ball on time with accuracy, good things will happen

Originally posted by Sims84:

which is why you don't have to have the strongest arm, as long as you know how to get ride of the ball on time with accuracy, good things will happen

True.

Well, it helps when the receiver knows how to use his arms to beat the jam, run the slant, and then not tip the ball into the defenders hands.

Thank the Football Gods that we appear to have a staff that knows how to teach now.

Here's to pwning defenses with the quick slant all day next season.

Originally posted by Wodwo:

Originally posted by Sims84:

which is why you don't have to have the strongest arm, as long as you know how to get ride of the ball on time with accuracy, good things will happen

True.

Well, it helps when the receiver knows how to use his arms to beat the jam, run the slant, and then not tip the ball into the defenders hands.

Thank the Football Gods that we appear to have a staff that knows how to teach now.

Here's to pwning defenses with the quick slant all day next season.

That is true, although Crabtree has only amounted to 4 of the 41 turnovers we have had since he has been on the team and one was a fumble in his 2nd game of his career and hasn't fumbled since but watching Greg Jennings and James Jones drop quite a few catchable balls this season only for the QB to keep believing in them and going their way leads me to believe that with enough opportunities, Crabtree will be VERY DANGEROUS.

He will drop passes just like every other receiver does but let's hope the 49ers can start getting some luck on their side and the ball just doesn't pop into the air on their dropped passes

Originally posted by Sims84:


That is true, although Crabtree has only amounted to 4 of the 41 turnovers we have had since he has been on the team and one was a fumble in his 2nd game of his career and hasn't fumbled since but watching Greg Jennings and James Jones drop quite a few catchable balls this season only for the QB to keep believing in them and going their way leads me to believe that with enough opportunities, Crabtree will be VERY DANGEROUS.

He will drop passes just like every other receiver does but let's hope the 49ers can start getting some luck on their side and the ball just doesn't pop into the air on their dropped passes

I'm not worried about it. After Crabtree knocked the rust off, he became pretty reliable.

He did have the most passes thrown his way this season.

Isn't there some old rule about a wide receiver's third year?

I think he'll be catching a much higher percentage of those targets next season.

If there is a season....

Originally posted by Wodwo:

Originally posted by Sims84:


That is true, although Crabtree has only amounted to 4 of the 41 turnovers we have had since he has been on the team and one was a fumble in his 2nd game of his career and hasn't fumbled since but watching Greg Jennings and James Jones drop quite a few catchable balls this season only for the QB to keep believing in them and going their way leads me to believe that with enough opportunities, Crabtree will be VERY DANGEROUS.

He will drop passes just like every other receiver does but let's hope the 49ers can start getting some luck on their side and the ball just doesn't pop into the air on their dropped passes

I'm not worried about it. After Crabtree knocked the rust off, he became pretty reliable.

He did have the most passes thrown his way this season.

Isn't there some old rule about a wide receiver's third year?

I think he'll be catching a much higher percentage of those targets next season.

If there is a season....

I agree although it took Vernon Davis to his 4th year until he broke out even though he plays a different position, his seam route was really hard to defend

I invision a lot of drags and crosses with Vernon Davis in the WCO. Plays that if they want to take away that seam, they will still be out matched by trying to keep up with him dragging across the field Hurry up September. I just want to be able to fast forward like the movie "Click" without the consequences

Originally posted by Sims84:

Originally posted by Wodwo:

Originally posted by Sims84:


That is true, although Crabtree has only amounted to 4 of the 41 turnovers we have had since he has been on the team and one was a fumble in his 2nd game of his career and hasn't fumbled since but watching Greg Jennings and James Jones drop quite a few catchable balls this season only for the QB to keep believing in them and going their way leads me to believe that with enough opportunities, Crabtree will be VERY DANGEROUS.

He will drop passes just like every other receiver does but let's hope the 49ers can start getting some luck on their side and the ball just doesn't pop into the air on their dropped passes

I'm not worried about it. After Crabtree knocked the rust off, he became pretty reliable.

He did have the most passes thrown his way this season.

Isn't there some old rule about a wide receiver's third year?

I think he'll be catching a much higher percentage of those targets next season.

If there is a season....

I agree although it took Vernon Davis to his 4th year until he broke out even though he plays a different position, his seam route was really hard to defend

I invision a lot of drags and crosses with Vernon Davis in the WCO. Plays that if they want to take away that seam, they will still be out matched by trying to keep up with him dragging across the field Hurry up September. I just want to be able to fast forward like the movie "Click" without the consequences

Agree with all you are saying about Crabtree's ability and potential, but still want to see him finish his routes. That may be a matter of coaching as I would have been showing him film for hours after games pointing out missed opportunities. He needs to understand that QBs will find him sometimes as a last resort…if he continues to play. One of my favorite aspects of Walsh's teaching was what the receivers were to do when the play breaks down…run with the QB and find the opening, either coming back or laterally across the field. I believe Harbaugh will be demanding in this regard.

One of the reasons I believe the offense did not play well in the past is that the OC had no real power. They were all working for defensive minded head coaches.

[ Edited by dtg_9er on Feb 1, 2011 at 06:32:07 ]