Niners had worst OL in 2009

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:

Originally posted by wolfpack52:

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:

Originally posted by wolfpack52:

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:

Originally posted by wolfpack52:

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:

Originally posted by wolfpack52:

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:
There were far worse offensive lines in football, and really, in the division (Rams). The Buffalo Bills had a different starting combination upfront in 11 out of 16 games, and they lost every starting lineman from their preseason projected lineup (most of them to IR). That is ridiculous. Our OL was not good at all, but it was not the worst either.

Good job comparing the 9ers to 2 teams that had 7 wins between them.

Thank you

And hence, two teams that had worse Offensive Lines. What's your point?

Well they both had more rushing yards then the niners and the niners clearly had a better RB. The 9ers only average 20 more yards a game then those bum squads. So I would say since the 9ers have a top RB and cant run better then the bills got to blame that bum ass OLINE.

Niners clearly had a better RB? I'm sorry to say, but Stephen Jackson is better than Frank Gore, and Fred Jackson is one of the most underrated players in football. He had 1,000 yards rushing, was 2nd on the team in catches, and was returning the majority of their punts and kicks. If that's not versatility, I don't know what is.

And bum squads? Since when did we become ELITE? None of the above mentioned teams made the playoffs and that's really all that matters.

If you honestly think Jackson is better then Gore then get off this thread and think about suicide. Hes a better reciever than Gore but that has less to do about OLine play then running. For all of Jacksons career he has had a better OLine. Gore averages like half a yard more per carry. Stop with that crap. And a back who returns kicks(F. Jackson) has nothing to do with OLine, thats special teams. Gore is ten times the running back he will ever be. Should Reggie Bush be considered a great back because of his SP teams play? NO maybe a great SP teams player. The 9ers are an up and coming team, record is getting better gradually, but are an average team. There 8-8 record screams that. Why would you be comparing them to the worst team in football and another poor team? Because all there OLines suck.

You must not even know who Stephen Jackson is. Stephen Jackson is a top 5 running back in the NFL, probably more like a top 3. Gore is not. Stephen Jackson still tore it up this past season with absolutely nothing else on offense. He is not a better receiver than Gore either, nor has he had a better OL for most of his career. Get out of your bubble.

The returning point with Jackson was to illustrate how useful, versatile, and not far behind Gore he is talent wise; not anything to do with the OL.

I still don't get your point, because you are bouncing all over the place, but you definitely missed mine.

Your the one bouncing all over the place bringing up SP teams and recieving backs, Im just trying to dismiss those facts as they have nothing to do with OL. Reread what you wrote. Everything I wrote was based on OL play. So we disagree that you think S Jackson is a better RB then Gore which is ridiculous to me and thats not just because Im a 9er fan. Jackson catches the ball better but has been on a terrible team so his numbers have been down. I dont blame that on OL I say its becuase they had no other weapons.
You dont agree with me and said S Jackson is better then Gore. your opinion. You then brought up SP teams to somehow discredit Gore.
I said the niners have better guys to run the ball(not SP teams or recieving backs) then the bills and rams but those teams run the ball better. I blamed it on OL play. Very simple point. Keep your facts to OL play.

I brought up special teams to credit Fred Jackson, not to discredit Gore. My initial post was about OL and OL only. In the first sentence of your first post, in response to mine, you said that the niners "clearly" had a better RB. Well, that is your opinion but it is "clearly" not what the majority of NFL football fans would say. Who is WE??? And Jackson's numbers have been down because he has been injured; that is his only weakness, but a mighty important one. I am not a Rams fan by any stretch of the imagination, but S. Jackson is a beast.

Ok so you admit to bringing up useless info about SP teams afer your initial response. I dont know how clearly the majority of NFL fans see S Jackson better then Gore if they both played in the same number of probowls and ST Louis is a bigger football city then SF. We is me and you disagree, sorry if that was too hard for you to understand. Keep loving Jackson, I will be on team Gore.

There are people on here that disagree that our Oline was pure fail last year?



WTF?

Are you undercover raider fans?

That sh*t does not make any sense whatsoever.

do we still have Glassman's number?

Originally posted by wailers15:

Originally posted by wolfpack52:

Originally posted by excelsior:
There are lots of variables and factors that go into stats.

I watched the games, and my eyes told me that too many times there was no hole for Gore to squeeze through, and too many times Alex was having to throw before he wanted to. While watching the playoffs, I could often see the difference, where the QB had much more time to throw.

Conclusion: If we want our RB and our QB (whoever he may be) to perform at his best, we need to drastically improve our line. It should have been fixed three years ago.

You cant say they havent tried

i think what he's tryingto say is that SCOTTY & HIS CREW CAN"T SPOT TALENT!!! We've drawn blanks these last couple of days.

Good spot as any to jump into this pool, I guess.

Look if there is no excuses for Alex(as MANY like to pontificate over) then there sure as hell ain't any excuses for Scottie other than he wasn't GM 3 years ago. In any case these were his guys and they epic failed on the field more than they succeeded.

Play calling predictability? What so Hill gets a pass and Raye takes all the blame? Lets be realistic here shall we? What would you have done differently with Hill under Center? The man couldn't throw a Nerf 20 yards without it fluttering. Defenses figured him out and played the Middle and shallow coverage and stuffed the box against the Run. That's on Hill as much as it is anyone in the Offense.

I mean you guys DID notice that when Alex game in Hill's final game that Raye was able to open it up right? If this was a case of a bad OC it wouldn't have happened that way. It would have been business as usual hand the ball to Frank and let him go. Instead they let the leashes off Alex and Duke. Thing of beauty even in the face of a Loss.

Rachal... the man is out of position. Bad footwork? Yeah cause he's on the wrong side of the Line starting with the wrong foot. Epic failure Foerster. Good riddance that Lump is gone. Anyone that believes that you can plug a guy in willy nilly is a waste of a coaching position imho. You have to go with the strengths of the men you're given unless all other spots are filled. Obviously nobody else was playing well so why was Rachal playing RG? Sims played so much better when he moved over to LT. Can't blame that on Rachal cause Sims sucked at RT before he ever came to this team. That stinks of a Coach that's only there to collect a pay check. He may put in the required hours but he might as well be asleep, he wouldn't be any more effective.

People can STUFF that garbage about Heitmann's intelligence. I've seen that man WHIFF on his own protection calls. He did it a number of times this season. NO WAY IN HELL, that should happen. No cajones, and lots of heart and "intelligence"= failure at the Center position. He's still serviceable as a Guard so move him the hell over and get someone in there that has cajones. It all starts at the Center position. Solari and Ray Ray know this. I don't care if we have the dumbest rock on two legs at Center so long as he can get his unit working as one off the ball. You can coach the protection schemes to someone, you cannot teach cajones to them. I'm so damn tired of seeing guys come through unblocked up the middle. If I'm the Center that is MY territory. You come through it you get broke. A solid Center can take on TWO guys and Heitmann has issues taking on ONE.

Sorry guys, when I talk about the Line I get worked up like a madman on crack. I'm just tired of that being the unit that ranks at the bottom of the league. 27th is just as bad as 32nd in my mind. We should ALWAYS be shooting for 1st, even if we only rank 10th - 18th. Because at least we would see a better outcome Offensively.

Hell, I could have coached that Line better than Foerster.

~Ceadder

[ Edited by Ceadderman on Feb 27, 2010 at 15:25:58 ]

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by wailers15:

Originally posted by wolfpack52:

Originally posted by excelsior:
There are lots of variables and factors that go into stats.

I watched the games, and my eyes told me that too many times there was no hole for Gore to squeeze through, and too many times Alex was having to throw before he wanted to. While watching the playoffs, I could often see the difference, where the QB had much more time to throw.

Conclusion: If we want our RB and our QB (whoever he may be) to perform at his best, we need to drastically improve our line. It should have been fixed three years ago.

You cant say they havent tried

i think what he's tryingto say is that SCOTTY & HIS CREW CAN"T SPOT TALENT!!! We've drawn blanks these last couple of days.

Good spot as any to jump into this pool, I guess.

Look if there is no excuses for Alex(as MANY like to pontificate over) then there sure as hell ain't any excuses for Scottie other than he wasn't GM 3 years ago. In any case these were his guys and they epic failed on the field more than they succeeded.

Play calling predictability? What so Hill gets a pass and Raye takes all the blame? Lets be realistic here shall we? What would you have done differently with Hill under Center? The man couldn't throw a Nerf 20 yards without it fluttering. Defenses figured him out and played the Middle and shallow coverage and stuffed the box against the Run. That's on Hill as much as it is anyone in the Offense.

I mean you guys DID notice that when Alex game in Hill's final game that Raye was able to open it up right? If this was a case of a bad OC it wouldn't have happened that way. It would have been business as usual hand the ball to Frank and let him go. Instead they let the leashes off Alex and Duke. Thing of beauty even in the face of a Loss.

Rachal... the man is out of position. Bad footwork? Yeah cause he's on the wrong side of the Line starting with the wrong foot. Epic failure Foerster. Good riddance that Lump is gone. Anyone that believes that you can plug a guy in willy nilly is a waste of a coaching position imho. You have to go with the strengths of the men you're given unless all other spots are filled. Obviously nobody else was playing well so why was Rachal playing RG? Sims played so much better when he moved over to LT. Can't blame that on Rachal cause Sims sucked at RT before he ever came to this team. That stinks of a Coach that's only there to collect a pay check. He may put in the required hours but he might as well be asleep, he wouldn't be any more effective.

People can STUFF that garbage about Heitmann's intelligence. I've seen that man WHIFF on his own protection calls. He did it a number of times this season. NO WAY IN HELL, that should happen. No cajones, and lots of heart and "intelligence"= failure at the Center position. He's still serviceable as a Guard so move him the hell over and get someone in there that has cajones. It all starts at the Center position. Solari and Ray Ray know this. I don't care if we have the dumbest rock on two legs at Center so long as he can get his unit working as one off the ball. You can coach the protection schemes to someone, you cannot teach cajones to them. I'm so damn tired of seeing guys come through unblocked up the middle. If I'm the Center that is MY territory. You come through it you get broke. A solid Center can take on TWO guys and Heitmann has issues taking on ONE.

Sorry guys, when I talk about the Line I get worked up like a madman on crack. I'm just tired of that being the unit that ranks at the bottom of the league. 27th is just as bad as 32nd in my mind. We should ALWAYS be shooting for 1st, even if we only rank 10th - 18th. Because at least we would see a better outcome Offensively.

Hell, I could have coached that Line better than Foerster.

~Ceadder

I have to agree with you (to a lesser extent) about Heitman. He is servicable, but nothing special. We really should consider upgrading that position as well. There is no reason in hell we shouldn't be able to pick up a yard or have such a weak goal line push. Heitman is a big part of that.

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by wailers15:

Originally posted by wolfpack52:

Originally posted by excelsior:
There are lots of variables and factors that go into stats.

I watched the games, and my eyes told me that too many times there was no hole for Gore to squeeze through, and too many times Alex was having to throw before he wanted to. While watching the playoffs, I could often see the difference, where the QB had much more time to throw.

Conclusion: If we want our RB and our QB (whoever he may be) to perform at his best, we need to drastically improve our line. It should have been fixed three years ago.

You cant say they havent tried

i think what he's tryingto say is that SCOTTY & HIS CREW CAN"T SPOT TALENT!!! We've drawn blanks these last couple of days.

Good spot as any to jump into this pool, I guess.

Look if there is no excuses for Alex(as MANY like to pontificate over) then there sure as hell ain't any excuses for Scottie other than he wasn't GM 3 years ago. In any case these were his guys and they epic failed on the field more than they succeeded.

Play calling predictability? What so Hill gets a pass and Raye takes all the blame? Lets be realistic here shall we? What would you have done differently with Hill under Center? The man couldn't throw a Nerf 20 yards without it fluttering. Defenses figured him out and played the Middle and shallow coverage and stuffed the box against the Run. That's on Hill as much as it is anyone in the Offense.

I mean you guys DID notice that when Alex game in Hill's final game that Raye was able to open it up right? If this was a case of a bad OC it wouldn't have happened that way. It would have been business as usual hand the ball to Frank and let him go. Instead they let the leashes off Alex and Duke. Thing of beauty even in the face of a Loss.

Rachal... the man is out of position. Bad footwork? Yeah cause he's on the wrong side of the Line starting with the wrong foot. Epic failure Foerster. Good riddance that Lump is gone. Anyone that believes that you can plug a guy in willy nilly is a waste of a coaching position imho. You have to go with the strengths of the men you're given unless all other spots are filled. Obviously nobody else was playing well so why was Rachal playing RG? Sims played so much better when he moved over to LT. Can't blame that on Rachal cause Sims sucked at RT before he ever came to this team. That stinks of a Coach that's only there to collect a pay check. He may put in the required hours but he might as well be asleep, he wouldn't be any more effective.

People can STUFF that garbage about Heitmann's intelligence. I've seen that man WHIFF on his own protection calls. He did it a number of times this season. NO WAY IN HELL, that should happen. No cajones, and lots of heart and "intelligence"= failure at the Center position. He's still serviceable as a Guard so move him the hell over and get someone in there that has cajones. It all starts at the Center position. Solari and Ray Ray know this. I don't care if we have the dumbest rock on two legs at Center so long as he can get his unit working as one off the ball. You can coach the protection schemes to someone, you cannot teach cajones to them. I'm so damn tired of seeing guys come through unblocked up the middle. If I'm the Center that is MY territory. You come through it you get broke. A solid Center can take on TWO guys and Heitmann has issues taking on ONE.

Sorry guys, when I talk about the Line I get worked up like a madman on crack. I'm just tired of that being the unit that ranks at the bottom of the league. 27th is just as bad as 32nd in my mind. We should ALWAYS be shooting for 1st, even if we only rank 10th - 18th. Because at least we would see a better outcome Offensively.

Hell, I could have coached that Line better than Foerster.

~Ceadder

Very well said. This is why it burns my ass that there talk about drafting Spiller or a QB. Do people realize that a back like Spiller is useless unless he can get upfield? Backs like him need an aggresive line because they need a little daylight then they can make there move. I dont like Chilo at all. Maybe your correct that hes playing on the wrong side but he still plays soft. The problem at center is the niners havent had a real oppurtunity to replace him with someone better. I been saying the niners did decent with the worst OL, what if they had an average line?

OK. Then FIX IT...already!!!!

Originally posted by Kalen49ers:

Originally posted by sincalfaithful:
this is the reason why it was 2nd & 11 or 3rd & 9 the whole season

I hated that s**t. But thats also horrible predictable playcalling. Defense knows its a run up the middle. They put 8 guys in there and most of the time the play never has a chance

This is the biggest reason right here by far! We do not have a terrible line but we sure did under Raye. People never questioned Staley's talent until this year (regarded as our best olinemen). The predictability of Raye lead to defenses stacking 8-9 men in the box and run blitzing like mad. This predictability also lead to many guys getting hurt naturally which lead to less continuity and linemen playing on their heels. Raye and Singletary's (starts with coach) old-school philosophy put out entire offense behind the 8-ball before the season even kicked off. And "continuity" is going to help? Only if Alex Smith is allowed to audible out of every play Raye calls. Continuity of crap is still crap, IMHO.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Kalen49ers:

Originally posted by sincalfaithful:
this is the reason why it was 2nd & 11 or 3rd & 9 the whole season

I hated that s**t. But thats also horrible predictable playcalling. Defense knows its a run up the middle. They put 8 guys in there and most of the time the play never has a chance

This is the biggest reason right here by far! We do not have a terrible line but we sure did under Raye. People never questioned Staley's talent until this year (regarded as our best olinemen). The predictability of Raye lead to defenses stacking 8-9 men in the box and run blitzing like mad. This predictability also lead to many guys getting hurt naturally which lead to less continuity and linemen playing on their heels. Raye and Singletary's (starts with coach) old-school philosophy put out entire offense behind the 8-ball before the season even kicked off. And "continuity" is going to help? Only if Alex Smith is allowed to audible out of every play Raye calls. Continuity of crap is still crap, IMHO.

Whoa whoa, pump your brakes NC. Predictability cost us early yes. Not so much later. Also as much as you can blame Raye for the playcalling predictability, you have to blame that on Sing too. For it was a stubborn insistence related to being a smashmouth team. Running the IForm predominately on every play is what keyed the Defense to our play.

Hill was the WORST choice to be the Starter. I called it last season back when people were saying that he was a better player than Smith. Stack the box send blitzers and go man. If you get beat you get beat but you'll have success against our Line in the IForm against Hill. I was actually shocked that we got the 1st two wins with Shaun as the Starter. But it did't take long for the Opposing Defenses to catch up.

Raye did throw in some wrinkles and adjusted pretty well. Unfortunately not until after the team went to Sing did things really take a turn for the better. I would hope that Sing identifies with the strengths of the personnel during the offseason and Raye can build on the Spread. Seems like when there is an advancement in Offensive Strategies the 9ers are right there.

Shotgun? 9ers.

WCO? 9ers.

And now the Spread/Gun. Raye got that going pretty well when he ran is consistently. The only team that had our number in it was Philly. And I kind of expected that since it's Jimmy Johnson's unit. Yes he's passed on but the unit is still intact.

Let's see what we have this coming season before calling for Raye's head. Lord knows I was not enthused by his hiring, but I'm willing to give him time.

~Ceadder

Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Whoa whoa, pump your brakes NC. Predictability cost us early yes. Not so much later. Also as much as you can blame Raye for the playcalling predictability, you have to blame that on Sing too. For it was a stubborn insistence related to being a smashmouth team. Running the IForm predominately on every play is what keyed the Defense to our play.

My man, this is Ninertalk - we are FULL SPEED AHEAD! Haha

Let me first clarify that this ALL first started with Singletary releasing Martz and not working outa balance or staying with his pared-down version of offense which Hill and the rest of our offense had the second half of the season. Singletary desired a run-oriented offense that could impose it's will on defenses so out goes Martz and in comes...pass...pass...I guess Raye will have to do and his mediocrisy at-best track record. At least he's good at getting the TE involved.

I certainly don't blame everything all on Raye. It all started with Singletary, no question and his philosophy and Raye was hired to mirror it. But then again, given his 65 years in the league, after having time to assess his players, one would think he'd go to Singletary and say, "We have both Hill & Smith both who have proven track records of much success in the shot gun and spread offense...all of our WR's excelled in it last year including Hill and we just drafted Crabtree and I'm pretty good at getting the TE involved. It's obvious, even in pre-season, that if I run the same running play in between the tackles with Gore against 8 & 9 man fronts (never off tackle), we may not be successful in the NFL as defensive coaches are actually pretty intelligent. Perhaps you should let me evolve the offense, Mike?"

But, again, Raye was not hired to think - he was hired to execute one plan and one plan only (Run with Gore and impose our will on defenses NO MATTER WHAT!). Brilliant. The error was in the initial philosophy esp. in todays game and in not having a contingency plan that actually played to our players strengths. Game-planning to take advantage of defensive weaknesses might have helped too?

So that said, I completely agree with you, my man!

Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Hill was the WORST choice to be the Starter. I called it last season back when people were saying that he was a better player than Smith. Stack the box send blitzers and go man. If you get beat you get beat but you'll have success against our Line in the IForm against Hill. I was actually shocked that we got the 1st two wins with Shaun as the Starter. But it did't take long for the Opposing Defenses to catch up.

Tom Brady & Drew Brees would have been the worst choice for Singletary/Raye's offense. Hill was fantastic in the Singletray/Martz system, no question. Had they kept that continuity with Martz, added Crabtree and they got Davis involved, who KNOWS what could have been; defenses would have no idea where to key in on and Gore would have plenty of room to run. But the rest of your point is dead on...after, literally, one game from a Singletary/Raye offensive game-plan, defensive coaches took 35 seconds to game-plan and told the players to take the rest of the week off - easy job! Piece of cake!

Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Raye did throw in some wrinkles and adjusted pretty well. Unfortunately not until after the team went to Sing did things really take a turn for the better. I would hope that Sing identifies with the strengths of the personnel during the offseason and Raye can build on the Spread. Seems like when there is an advancement in Offensive Strategies the 9ers are right there.

I give credit where credit is due and I don't believe it's all Raye's fault here. I give him credit for "attempting" a spread offense mid-season when he had about three spread plays in his 65 year old playbook. Smith made it work. Hill would have made it work too. Sadly, it DID take the players to go to the coaching staff and add 1 plus 1 for them. THAT is not only very sad but scary.

But sticking with the predictability theme, it was either ALL I-formation or ALL spread. MM noted that Raye's offense around the league by far, was noted as very preditcable. There was no balance at all. Game-planning to start the game was brutal, catch-up in the second half, run when we played a weak pass coverage team, pass when we played a very weak run stopping team, etc.

Singletary/Raye CLEARLY just had no clue what to do and essentially created their own self-fulfilling prophecy.

So, now what? NOW we have the continuity we always needed? I go back to my original statement...the blind leading the blind here. Continuity of crap is still crap. Unless Raye is this closet offensive genius and he just needed Singletary to let go and give him full control, we'll be fine. But let's be real here...we have 65 years of history to draw from and Raye is medicore AT BEST.

I just don't see a lot of reason for optimism with Singletary/Raye at the helm for the offensive unit. Aside from "continuity" do you? Honestly?

Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Shotgun? 9ers.

Recent History. Check.

Originally posted by Ceadderman:
WCO? 9ers.

History? Check.

Originally posted by Ceadderman:
And now the Spread/Gun. Raye got that going pretty well when he ran is consistently. The only team that had our number in it was Philly. And I kind of expected that since it's Jimmy Johnson's unit. Yes he's passed on but the unit is still intact.

All spread with no creativity or an emphasis on exploiting defensive weaknesses and TERRIBLE game-planning as esp. evidenced on our first drives.

Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Let's see what we have this coming season before calling for Raye's head. Lord knows I was not enthused by his hiring, but I'm willing to give him time.

~Ceadder

Sounds good but it's not like we have a choice here do we? Haha. We can hope for the best, that's for sure!

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by wailers15:

Originally posted by wolfpack52:

Originally posted by excelsior:
There are lots of variables and factors that go into stats.

I watched the games, and my eyes told me that too many times there was no hole for Gore to squeeze through, and too many times Alex was having to throw before he wanted to. While watching the playoffs, I could often see the difference, where the QB had much more time to throw.

Conclusion: If we want our RB and our QB (whoever he may be) to perform at his best, we need to drastically improve our line. It should have been fixed three years ago.

You cant say they haven't tried

i think what he's trying to say is that SCOTTY & HIS CREW CAN"T SPOT TALENT!!! We've drawn blanks these last couple of days.

Good spot as any to jump into this pool, I guess.

Look if there is no excuses for Alex(as MANY like to pontificate over) then there sure as hell ain't any excuses for Scottie other than he wasn't GM 3 years ago. In any case these were his guys and they epic failed on the field more than they succeeded.

Play calling predictability? What so Hill gets a pass and Raye takes all the blame? Lets be realistic here shall we? What would you have done differently with Hill under Center? The man couldn't throw a Nerf 20 yards without it fluttering. Defenses figured him out and played the Middle and shallow coverage and stuffed the box against the Run. That's on Hill as much as it is anyone in the Offense.

I mean you guys DID notice that when Alex game in Hill's final game that Raye was able to open it up right? If this was a case of a bad OC it wouldn't have happened that way. It would have been business as usual hand the ball to Frank and let him go. Instead they let the leashes off Alex and Duke. Thing of beauty even in the face of a Loss.

Rachal... the man is out of position. Bad footwork? Yeah cause he's on the wrong side of the Line starting with the wrong foot. Epic failure Foerster. Good riddance that Lump is gone. Anyone that believes that you can plug a guy in willy nilly is a waste of a coaching position imho. You have to go with the strengths of the men you're given unless all other spots are filled. Obviously nobody else was playing well so why was Rachal playing RG? Sims played so much better when he moved over to LT. Can't blame that on Rachal cause Sims sucked at RT before he ever came to this team. That stinks of a Coach that's only there to collect a pay check. He may put in the required hours but he might as well be asleep, he wouldn't be any more effective.

People can STUFF that garbage about Heitmann's intelligence. I've seen that man WHIFF on his own protection calls. He did it a number of times this season. NO WAY IN HELL, that should happen. No cajones, and lots of heart and "intelligence"= failure at the Center position. He's still serviceable as a Guard so move him the hell over and get someone in there that has cajones. It all starts at the Center position. Solari and Ray Ray know this. I don't care if we have the dumbest rock on two legs at Center so long as he can get his unit working as one off the ball. You can coach the protection schemes to someone, you cannot teach cajones to them. I'm so damn tired of seeing guys come through unblocked up the middle. If I'm the Center that is MY territory. You come through it you get broke. A solid Center can take on TWO guys and Heitmann has issues taking on ONE.

Sorry guys, when I talk about the Line I get worked up like a madman on crack. I'm just tired of that being the unit that ranks at the bottom of the league. 27th is just as bad as 32nd in my mind. We should ALWAYS be shooting for 1st, even if we only rank 10th - 18th. Because at least we would see a better outcome Offensively.

Hell, I could have coached that Line better than Foerster.

~Ceadder

Please, please let me jump in this pool in total agreement with this post. Not only did Heitman whiff on his own protection, but the protection was designed to isolate Rachal one-on-one when he was having the most trouble. I have yet to hear anything from Forester as to why Baas routinely got help and Rachal didn't. It was like Groundhog Day. Heitman just rarely ever helped out to the RIGHT - why? Teams prepared for this and would always send two rushers on the right side, or just have one DT expose the gap between Heitman and Rachal. Out of any scheme seeing this repeated was just really painful. I could tell at the snap Smith would not get the ball off. You could see the DT or LB get ready and watch Hietman immediately move LEFT.

Okay, please continue your adept critique .....

GM

Well to be honest, I saw alot of plays where Heitman just looked LOST at the snap. He didn't go left or right in those instances. He was practically standing tall with his palms out toward the Defensive Front, but no contact made. Guys blow right by the man. This should NEVER happen since he's the guy setting the protection and he's the guy the others look to.

I feel that while Jennings deserved to be called out for the minor injury issue. But I think that he and others have gotten a bad rep on the Line because they have to go with the calls at the Line. There is no room to freelance on the Line at all. And as you said it seems to happen to the right more than the left side of the Line.

In any case, I'm REALLY hoping Solari and Ray Ray get this worked out. Ray should be an excellent lightning rod of information. I think that he would be able to help Baas and Rachal with their footwork as well. The Line should be doing everything as one unit. I don't know if they are but it sure seems like they aren't.

When was the last time that you consistently saw them get off the ball as one and actually knock the Opposing Line on their butts? Me, I haven't seen that in a LONG time. Haven't seen a good pancake from our unit either, now that I think about it. Oh a Defender may slip to the ground occasionally, but that just is not the same.

I personally do not think that anyone questioned Staley at all. He just ended up on the injury list and Sims did a fantastic job subbing for him. I hope we can get Sims retained for the next season, so Stales can move back to the Right until we find a better option to fill that spot and move him back to Left.

My main thought is that we just might have our Starters if someone worth a fokk, can see that some are just out of their natural spots. It's kinda like telling a Rightie pitcher to start throwing Leftie because there is no room on the roster for a natural Rightie. Dude is gonna be wild, inept and throw alot of junk. Same thing goes with Linemen. Their first step should ALWAYS be their natural step and they should be lining up according to their initial step. At least that's what I learned at a young age. I don't know about anyone else.

~Ceadder

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Whoa whoa, pump your brakes NC. Predictability cost us early yes. Not so much later. Also as much as you can blame Raye for the playcalling predictability, you have to blame that on Sing too. For it was a stubborn insistence related to being a smashmouth team. Running the IForm predominately on every play is what keyed the Defense to our play.

My man, this is Ninertalk - we are FULL SPEED AHEAD! Haha

Let me first clarify that this ALL first started with Singletary releasing Martz and not working outa balance or staying with his pared-down version of offense which Hill and the rest of our offense had the second half of the season. Singletary desired a run-oriented offense that could impose it's will on defenses so out goes Martz and in comes...pass...pass...I guess Raye will have to do and his mediocrisy at-best track record. At least he's good at getting the TE involved.

I certainly don't blame everything all on Raye. It all started with Singletary, no question and his philosophy and Raye was hired to mirror it. But then again, given his 65 years in the league, after having time to assess his players, one would think he'd go to Singletary and say, "We have both Hill & Smith both who have proven track records of much success in the shot gun and spread offense...all of our WR's excelled in it last year including Hill and we just drafted Crabtree and I'm pretty good at getting the TE involved. It's obvious, even in pre-season, that if I run the same running play in between the tackles with Gore against 8 & 9 man fronts (never off tackle), we may not be successful in the NFL as defensive coaches are actually pretty intelligent. Perhaps you should let me evolve the offense, Mike?"

But, again, Raye was not hired to think - he was hired to execute one plan and one plan only (Run with Gore and impose our will on defenses NO MATTER WHAT!). Brilliant. The error was in the initial philosophy esp. in todays game and in not having a contingency plan that actually played to our players strengths. Game-planning to take advantage of defensive weaknesses might have helped too?

So that said, I completely agree with you, my man!

Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Hill was the WORST choice to be the Starter. I called it last season back when people were saying that he was a better player than Smith. Stack the box send blitzers and go man. If you get beat you get beat but you'll have success against our Line in the IForm against Hill. I was actually shocked that we got the 1st two wins with Shaun as the Starter. But it did't take long for the Opposing Defenses to catch up.

Tom Brady & Drew Brees would have been the worst choice for Singletary/Raye's offense. Hill was fantastic in the Singletray/Martz system, no question. Had they kept that continuity with Martz, added Crabtree and they got Davis involved, who KNOWS what could have been; defenses would have no idea where to key in on and Gore would have plenty of room to run. But the rest of your point is dead on...after, literally, one game from a Singletary/Raye offensive game-plan, defensive coaches took 35 seconds to game-plan and told the players to take the rest of the week off - easy job! Piece of cake!

Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Raye did throw in some wrinkles and adjusted pretty well. Unfortunately not until after the team went to Sing did things really take a turn for the better. I would hope that Sing identifies with the strengths of the personnel during the offseason and Raye can build on the Spread. Seems like when there is an advancement in Offensive Strategies the 9ers are right there.

I give credit where credit is due and I don't believe it's all Raye's fault here. I give him credit for "attempting" a spread offense mid-season when he had about three spread plays in his 65 year old playbook. Smith made it work. Hill would have made it work too. Sadly, it DID take the players to go to the coaching staff and add 1 plus 1 for them. THAT is not only very sad but scary.

But sticking with the predictability theme, it was either ALL I-formation or ALL spread. MM noted that Raye's offense around the league by far, was noted as very preditcable. There was no balance at all. Game-planning to start the game was brutal, catch-up in the second half, run when we played a weak pass coverage team, pass when we played a very weak run stopping team, etc.

Singletary/Raye CLEARLY just had no clue what to do and essentially created their own self-fulfilling prophecy.

So, now what? NOW we have the continuity we always needed? I go back to my original statement...the blind leading the blind here. Continuity of crap is still crap. Unless Raye is this closet offensive genius and he just needed Singletary to let go and give him full control, we'll be fine. But let's be real here...we have 65 years of history to draw from and Raye is medicore AT BEST.

I just don't see a lot of reason for optimism with Singletary/Raye at the helm for the offensive unit. Aside from "continuity" do you? Honestly?

Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Shotgun? 9ers.

Recent History. Check.

Originally posted by Ceadderman:
WCO? 9ers.

History? Check.

Originally posted by Ceadderman:
And now the Spread/Gun. Raye got that going pretty well when he ran is consistently. The only team that had our number in it was Philly. And I kind of expected that since it's Jimmy Johnson's unit. Yes he's passed on but the unit is still intact.

All spread with no creativity or an emphasis on exploiting defensive weaknesses and TERRIBLE game-planning as esp. evidenced on our first drives.

Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Let's see what we have this coming season before calling for Raye's head. Lord knows I was not enthused by his hiring, but I'm willing to give him time.

~Ceadder

Sounds good but it's not like we have a choice here do we? Haha. We can hope for the best, that's for sure!

Actually the Shotgun in the NFL started with the 9ers. Red Hickey(sp?) installed it. This was LONG before my time as a 9er fan.So not so recent given I been a fan for 32 years now.

I think that Martz is talkin out his butthurt ass. No offense meant to his expertise but it took him 3 years to get a solid Offense igoing n St. Louis. And he expects Raye to get it in one?While bending to the wishes of the Head Coach?

I'm not pointing this out in rebuttal to your stance. I'm pointing this out because some people just can't let it go. I will say though that Hill was averaging 1 TD a game through the air with Martz last season. I'd have to do the math to confirm this but I think that Raye got the same thing from him this season. I don't see the drop off in production from one OC to the other.

Once Defenses realized that Shaun's arm was a liability they planned for it. No big surprise there. And I for one wanted to retain Martz because I wanted to build on the last wins of last season. There was no hurry to go another direction since Martz was still under contract imho. Regardless of who was to be the starter this season. I think O'Sullivan was the deciding factor though. I think that Sing already made up his mind that JT was not a Starter and would not be back. I think that rubbed Martz ego the wrong way and being that he had limited time with Smith was looking to move on from Alex. The team decided to take the hit that was the least damaging to the wallet and Martz was that guy. Cause while Smith made less on paper I think that he still had guaranteed funds on the books. But I could be wrong about this last bit.

In any case most OCs' take 2 or 3 years to have success with a team. And that's having all the pieces in place. Which we do not. We're close but not there yet. I'm hoping thta we'll be there this coming season so I and the other Faithful don't have to sit through yet another season reading or listening to the knee jerk sky is falling pontificatorial garbage that we've been subjected to every year since Donahue took a chainsaw to the roster so many years ago. I for one am quite fed up with it.

~Ceadder

Originally posted by wolfpack52:

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:

Originally posted by wolfpack52:

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:

Originally posted by wolfpack52:

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:

Originally posted by wolfpack52:

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:

Originally posted by wolfpack52:

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:
There were far worse offensive lines in football, and really, in the division (Rams). The Buffalo Bills had a different starting combination upfront in 11 out of 16 games, and they lost every starting lineman from their preseason projected lineup (most of them to IR). That is ridiculous. Our OL was not good at all, but it was not the worst either.

Good job comparing the 9ers to 2 teams that had 7 wins between them.

Thank you

And hence, two teams that had worse Offensive Lines. What's your point?

Well they both had more rushing yards then the niners and the niners clearly had a better RB. The 9ers only average 20 more yards a game then those bum squads. So I would say since the 9ers have a top RB and cant run better then the bills got to blame that bum ass OLINE.

Niners clearly had a better RB? I'm sorry to say, but Stephen Jackson is better than Frank Gore, and Fred Jackson is one of the most underrated players in football. He had 1,000 yards rushing, was 2nd on the team in catches, and was returning the majority of their punts and kicks. If that's not versatility, I don't know what is.

And bum squads? Since when did we become ELITE? None of the above mentioned teams made the playoffs and that's really all that matters.

If you honestly think Jackson is better then Gore then get off this thread and think about suicide. Hes a better reciever than Gore but that has less to do about OLine play then running. For all of Jacksons career he has had a better OLine. Gore averages like half a yard more per carry. Stop with that crap. And a back who returns kicks(F. Jackson) has nothing to do with OLine, thats special teams. Gore is ten times the running back he will ever be. Should Reggie Bush be considered a great back because of his SP teams play? NO maybe a great SP teams player. The 9ers are an up and coming team, record is getting better gradually, but are an average team. There 8-8 record screams that. Why would you be comparing them to the worst team in football and another poor team? Because all there OLines suck.

You must not even know who Stephen Jackson is. Stephen Jackson is a top 5 running back in the NFL, probably more like a top 3. Gore is not. Stephen Jackson still tore it up this past season with absolutely nothing else on offense. He is not a better receiver than Gore either, nor has he had a better OL for most of his career. Get out of your bubble.

The returning point with Jackson was to illustrate how useful, versatile, and not far behind Gore he is talent wise; not anything to do with the OL.

I still don't get your point, because you are bouncing all over the place, but you definitely missed mine.

Your the one bouncing all over the place bringing up SP teams and recieving backs, Im just trying to dismiss those facts as they have nothing to do with OL. Reread what you wrote. Everything I wrote was based on OL play. So we disagree that you think S Jackson is a better RB then Gore which is ridiculous to me and thats not just because Im a 9er fan. Jackson catches the ball better but has been on a terrible team so his numbers have been down. I dont blame that on OL I say its becuase they had no other weapons.
You dont agree with me and said S Jackson is better then Gore. your opinion. You then brought up SP teams to somehow discredit Gore.
I said the niners have better guys to run the ball(not SP teams or recieving backs) then the bills and rams but those teams run the ball better. I blamed it on OL play. Very simple point. Keep your facts to OL play.

I brought up special teams to credit Fred Jackson, not to discredit Gore. My initial post was about OL and OL only. In the first sentence of your first post, in response to mine, you said that the niners "clearly" had a better RB. Well, that is your opinion but it is "clearly" not what the majority of NFL football fans would say. Who is WE??? And Jackson's numbers have been down because he has been injured; that is his only weakness, but a mighty important one. I am not a Rams fan by any stretch of the imagination, but S. Jackson is a beast.

Ok so you admit to bringing up useless info about SP teams afer your initial response. I dont know how clearly the majority of NFL fans see S Jackson better then Gore if they both played in the same number of probowls and ST Louis is a bigger football city then SF. We is me and you disagree, sorry if that was too hard for you to understand. Keep loving Jackson, I will be on team Gore.

Jackson is the faster of the two.

I think that Gore edges him out however and that's in both facets of his game.

Jackson is an Outside Rushing Back whereas Frank's success stems from between the Tackles. There is nothing wrong with Jackson's game BUT...

he gets swallowed up quickly by fast Sideline to Sideline LBs' like Bam Bam. Frank just runs through them.

If Jackson is a top 5 Back then Frank is right there with him. But I think that Jackson is more a top 10 Back than top 5. Look at what Frank does with garbage for a Line and a FB that has clearly seen better days.

~Ceadder

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by wolfpack52:

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:

Originally posted by wolfpack52:

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:

Originally posted by wolfpack52:

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:

Originally posted by wolfpack52:

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:

Originally posted by wolfpack52:

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:
There were far worse offensive lines in football, and really, in the division (Rams). The Buffalo Bills had a different starting combination upfront in 11 out of 16 games, and they lost every starting lineman from their preseason projected lineup (most of them to IR). That is ridiculous. Our OL was not good at all, but it was not the worst either.

Good job comparing the 9ers to 2 teams that had 7 wins between them.

Thank you

And hence, two teams that had worse Offensive Lines. What's your point?

Well they both had more rushing yards then the niners and the niners clearly had a better RB. The 9ers only average 20 more yards a game then those bum squads. So I would say since the 9ers have a top RB and cant run better then the bills got to blame that bum ass OLINE.

Niners clearly had a better RB? I'm sorry to say, but Stephen Jackson is better than Frank Gore, and Fred Jackson is one of the most underrated players in football. He had 1,000 yards rushing, was 2nd on the team in catches, and was returning the majority of their punts and kicks. If that's not versatility, I don't know what is.

And bum squads? Since when did we become ELITE? None of the above mentioned teams made the playoffs and that's really all that matters.

If you honestly think Jackson is better then Gore then get off this thread and think about suicide. Hes a better reciever than Gore but that has less to do about OLine play then running. For all of Jacksons career he has had a better OLine. Gore averages like half a yard more per carry. Stop with that crap. And a back who returns kicks(F. Jackson) has nothing to do with OLine, thats special teams. Gore is ten times the running back he will ever be. Should Reggie Bush be considered a great back because of his SP teams play? NO maybe a great SP teams player. The 9ers are an up and coming team, record is getting better gradually, but are an average team. There 8-8 record screams that. Why would you be comparing them to the worst team in football and another poor team? Because all there OLines suck.

You must not even know who Stephen Jackson is. Stephen Jackson is a top 5 running back in the NFL, probably more like a top 3. Gore is not. Stephen Jackson still tore it up this past season with absolutely nothing else on offense. He is not a better receiver than Gore either, nor has he had a better OL for most of his career. Get out of your bubble.

The returning point with Jackson was to illustrate how useful, versatile, and not far behind Gore he is talent wise; not anything to do with the OL.

I still don't get your point, because you are bouncing all over the place, but you definitely missed mine.

Your the one bouncing all over the place bringing up SP teams and recieving backs, Im just trying to dismiss those facts as they have nothing to do with OL. Reread what you wrote. Everything I wrote was based on OL play. So we disagree that you think S Jackson is a better RB then Gore which is ridiculous to me and thats not just because Im a 9er fan. Jackson catches the ball better but has been on a terrible team so his numbers have been down. I dont blame that on OL I say its becuase they had no other weapons.
You dont agree with me and said S Jackson is better then Gore. your opinion. You then brought up SP teams to somehow discredit Gore.
I said the niners have better guys to run the ball(not SP teams or recieving backs) then the bills and rams but those teams run the ball better. I blamed it on OL play. Very simple point. Keep your facts to OL play.

I brought up special teams to credit Fred Jackson, not to discredit Gore. My initial post was about OL and OL only. In the first sentence of your first post, in response to mine, you said that the niners "clearly" had a better RB. Well, that is your opinion but it is "clearly" not what the majority of NFL football fans would say. Who is WE??? And Jackson's numbers have been down because he has been injured; that is his only weakness, but a mighty important one. I am not a Rams fan by any stretch of the imagination, but S. Jackson is a beast.

Ok so you admit to bringing up useless info about SP teams afer your initial response. I dont know how clearly the majority of NFL fans see S Jackson better then Gore if they both played in the same number of probowls and ST Louis is a bigger football city then SF. We is me and you disagree, sorry if that was too hard for you to understand. Keep loving Jackson, I will be on team Gore.

Jackson is the faster of the two.

I think that Gore edges him out however and that's in both facets of his game.

Jackson is an Outside Rushing Back whereas Frank's success stems from between the Tackles. There is nothing wrong with Jackson's game BUT...

he gets swallowed up quickly by fast Sideline to Sideline LBs' like Bam Bam. Frank just runs through them.

If Jackson is a top 5 Back then Frank is right there with him. But I think that Jackson is more a top 10 Back than top 5. Look at what Frank does with garbage for a Line and a FB that has clearly seen better days.

~Ceadder

Oh I totally agree. -Frank does a lot of 'chum' duties in the league that many other RBs on better teams tend to look up to, specially the fact that our o-line has been such trash the past couple of years we've had to use Frank as an extra interior guard or RT in the passing game. -If our o-line was anything close to Minnesota's juicer squad, Frank would be putting up top-2 rushing numbers.

A lot of young RBs are selfish these days, and they dread the old meat and potatoes mentality/duties, but not Frank, he does what he has to do to for his team. And it hurts him sometimes more than anybody else in the locker room when we lose.

Im not crazy but if Gore had a top line we would be talking about his 2000yd season. How many times have they got the first hit on him in the backfield? Hopefully by the time they get this line correct he still has gas in his tank so we can really see what he can do.