My thoughts on 49ers season and going into 2010

Originally posted by PatrickJira411:

Originally posted by Ronnie49Lott:
IMO Raye is severely limited by the players at his disposal. Trying to score points while having Hill unable to throw the intermediate/deep ball, Smith with his interception issues, slow wr's, only one rb worth his roster spot all while not having 3/5 of an oline might make it tough when you have 20 plays to call from instead of 80. Thats why teams always seem to know our plays, because they don't have to guess when we trot out certain personnel and formations.
I think Alex is similar to Steve DeBerg who was okay but not good or great and never was consistent. "Good enough to get you beat" as BW said.

I think Raye and this offense never could find their identity. I know they won some games early with very good defense, a decent running game and Hill made some throws when he had to but once Atlanta exposed him (and pretty much our whole team) the underneath stuff was taken away and he could not even get a 1st down vs Houston. So Alex Smith came in, Crabtree signed and all of a sudden you have a much differen't offensive lineup then what was expected and what we had and worked on in TC, so that is why Raye gets a pass. Like I said, Raye did show he could change things up and come up with some differen't formations and be a little more creative and aggressive but I just think Raye does not have the talent for playcalling. He is either calling to many runs in a row or to many passes, he needs to find a balance and call the right play(s) at the right time. Like I said, he deserves to be brought back in 2010 and I think our offensive players deserve to be in the same system for 2 years in a row but the playcalling has to improve as does our O-Line. I think Alex Smith can be a very solid NFL QB who we can win 10+ games with if he has the proper people around him. He is not an elite NFL QB but we are not going to find one in the off-season and he is the best we have and I think he can be good enough.

Great post!

Originally posted by PatrickJira411:

Originally posted by Ronnie49Lott:
IMO Raye is severely limited by the players at his disposal. Trying to score points while having Hill unable to throw the intermediate/deep ball, Smith with his interception issues, slow wr's, only one rb worth his roster spot all while not having 3/5 of an oline might make it tough when you have 20 plays to call from instead of 80. Thats why teams always seem to know our plays, because they don't have to guess when we trot out certain personnel and formations.
I think Alex is similar to Steve DeBerg who was okay but not good or great and never was consistent. "Good enough to get you beat" as BW said.

I think Raye and this offense never could find their identity. I know they won some games early with very good defense, a decent running game and Hill made some throws when he had to but once Atlanta exposed him (and pretty much our whole team) the underneath stuff was taken away and he could not even get a 1st down vs Houston. So Alex Smith came in, Crabtree signed and all of a sudden you have a much differen't offensive lineup then what was expected and what we had and worked on in TC, so that is why Raye gets a pass. Like I said, Raye did show he could change things up and come up with some differen't formations and be a little more creative and aggressive but I just think Raye does not have the talent for playcalling. He is either calling to many runs in a row or to many passes, he needs to find a balance and call the right play(s) at the right time. Like I said, he deserves to be brought back in 2010 and I think our offensive players deserve to be in the same system for 2 years in a row but the playcalling has to improve as does our O-Line. I think Alex Smith can be a very solid NFL QB who we can win 10+ games with if he has the proper people around him. He is not an elite NFL QB but we are not going to find one in the off-season and he is the best we have and I think he can be good enough.

The Smith-Hater Metrosexuals are going to hate you for stating the obvious.

This is why I've said that simply committing to continuity is the best thing that's happened to this team in almost a decade. This is precisely why Sing sought someone like a Raye, someone devoted to being an OC and was going to stick around. I'm not the biggest Raye fan, but I am a fan of continuity for our particular situation. Without it we are worst off than we are right now.

Originally posted by PatrickJira411:

Originally posted by Ronnie49Lott:
IMO Raye is severely limited by the players at his disposal. Trying to score points while having Hill unable to throw the intermediate/deep ball, Smith with his interception issues, slow wr's, only one rb worth his roster spot all while not having 3/5 of an oline might make it tough when you have 20 plays to call from instead of 80. Thats why teams always seem to know our plays, because they don't have to guess when we trot out certain personnel and formations.
I think Alex is similar to Steve DeBerg who was okay but not good or great and never was consistent. "Good enough to get you beat" as BW said.

I think Raye and this offense never could find their identity. I know they won some games early with very good defense, a decent running game and Hill made some throws when he had to but once Atlanta exposed him (and pretty much our whole team) the underneath stuff was taken away and he could not even get a 1st down vs Houston. So Alex Smith came in, Crabtree signed and all of a sudden you have a much differen't offensive lineup then what was expected and what we had and worked on in TC, so that is why Raye gets a pass. Like I said, Raye did show he could change things up and come up with some differen't formations and be a little more creative and aggressive but I just think Raye does not have the talent for playcalling. He is either calling to many runs in a row or to many passes, he needs to find a balance and call the right play(s) at the right time. Like I said, he deserves to be brought back in 2010 and I think our offensive players deserve to be in the same system for 2 years in a row but the playcalling has to improve as does our O-Line. I think Alex Smith can be a very solid NFL QB who we can win 10+ games with if he has the proper people around him. He is not an elite NFL QB but we are not going to find one in the off-season and he is the best we have and I think he can be good enough.

I agree with your opinion of Raye 100%.

It took Raye about 4-5 weeks of failing to run that WR screen to Crabtree before he eliminated that play.

I'd also like to critique the fact that Raye very rarely calls vertical passing plays. Only when we've been down by a considerable margin have we taken the deep shots. I know that part of it is due to the pass protection of the line, but at least try to keep opposing defenses aware that it's in our arsenal.

To me, it just seems that we've resorted to a very pedantic and predictable short and medium passing game.

-9fA

Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:

Originally posted by PatrickJira411:

Originally posted by Ronnie49Lott:
IMO Raye is severely limited by the players at his disposal. Trying to score points while having Hill unable to throw the intermediate/deep ball, Smith with his interception issues, slow wr's, only one rb worth his roster spot all while not having 3/5 of an oline might make it tough when you have 20 plays to call from instead of 80. Thats why teams always seem to know our plays, because they don't have to guess when we trot out certain personnel and formations.
I think Alex is similar to Steve DeBerg who was okay but not good or great and never was consistent. "Good enough to get you beat" as BW said.

I think Raye and this offense never could find their identity. I know they won some games early with very good defense, a decent running game and Hill made some throws when he had to but once Atlanta exposed him (and pretty much our whole team) the underneath stuff was taken away and he could not even get a 1st down vs Houston. So Alex Smith came in, Crabtree signed and all of a sudden you have a much differen't offensive lineup then what was expected and what we had and worked on in TC, so that is why Raye gets a pass. Like I said, Raye did show he could change things up and come up with some differen't formations and be a little more creative and aggressive but I just think Raye does not have the talent for playcalling. He is either calling to many runs in a row or to many passes, he needs to find a balance and call the right play(s) at the right time. Like I said, he deserves to be brought back in 2010 and I think our offensive players deserve to be in the same system for 2 years in a row but the playcalling has to improve as does our O-Line. I think Alex Smith can be a very solid NFL QB who we can win 10+ games with if he has the proper people around him. He is not an elite NFL QB but we are not going to find one in the off-season and he is the best we have and I think he can be good enough.

I agree with your opinion of Raye 100%.

It took Raye about 4-5 weeks of failing to run that WR screen to Crabtree before he eliminated that play.

I'd also like to critique the fact that Raye very rarely calls vertical passing plays. Only when we've been down by a considerable margin have we taken the deep shots. I know that part of it is due to the pass protection of the line, but at least try to keep opposing defenses aware that it's in our arsenal.

To me, it just seems that we've resorted to a very pedantic and predictable short and medium passing game.

-9fA

Good point as well although im not sure Alex Smith would/did have the time to do a lot of vertical passing plays. I think were always going to have some complaints about Raye but it does make sense to bring him back next year and that is when we can truely judge Alex Smith and Jimmy Raye as a OC because they should have a better O-Line to work with and obviously a whole off-season and another year working together in the same system. I hope and think Mike Johnson will also have more input into the offense next year and hopefully a young guy like him can bring some creativity into the offense.

Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:

Originally posted by PatrickJira411:

Originally posted by Ronnie49Lott:
IMO Raye is severely limited by the players at his disposal. Trying to score points while having Hill unable to throw the intermediate/deep ball, Smith with his interception issues, slow wr's, only one rb worth his roster spot all while not having 3/5 of an oline might make it tough when you have 20 plays to call from instead of 80. Thats why teams always seem to know our plays, because they don't have to guess when we trot out certain personnel and formations.
I think Alex is similar to Steve DeBerg who was okay but not good or great and never was consistent. "Good enough to get you beat" as BW said.

I think Raye and this offense never could find their identity. I know they won some games early with very good defense, a decent running game and Hill made some throws when he had to but once Atlanta exposed him (and pretty much our whole team) the underneath stuff was taken away and he could not even get a 1st down vs Houston. So Alex Smith came in, Crabtree signed and all of a sudden you have a much differen't offensive lineup then what was expected and what we had and worked on in TC, so that is why Raye gets a pass. Like I said, Raye did show he could change things up and come up with some differen't formations and be a little more creative and aggressive but I just think Raye does not have the talent for playcalling. He is either calling to many runs in a row or to many passes, he needs to find a balance and call the right play(s) at the right time. Like I said, he deserves to be brought back in 2010 and I think our offensive players deserve to be in the same system for 2 years in a row but the playcalling has to improve as does our O-Line. I think Alex Smith can be a very solid NFL QB who we can win 10+ games with if he has the proper people around him. He is not an elite NFL QB but we are not going to find one in the off-season and he is the best we have and I think he can be good enough.

I agree with your opinion of Raye 100%.

It took Raye about 4-5 weeks of failing to run that WR screen to Crabtree before he eliminated that play.

I'd also like to critique the fact that Raye very rarely calls vertical passing plays. Only when we've been down by a considerable margin have we taken the deep shots. I know that part of it is due to the pass protection of the line, but at least try to keep opposing defenses aware that it's in our arsenal.

To me, it just seems that we've resorted to a very pedantic and predictable short and medium passing game.

-9fA

Raye only has so many options so it's bound to become predictable. After the first couple of games with either qb it looked like defenses knew what was coming. The interception in the Philly game where the cb peeled off the wr and in front of VD on the seam or skinny post route was an example of a defense knowing what was coming.

Originally posted by PatrickJira411:

Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:

Originally posted by PatrickJira411:

Originally posted by Ronnie49Lott:
IMO Raye is severely limited by the players at his disposal. Trying to score points while having Hill unable to throw the intermediate/deep ball, Smith with his interception issues, slow wr's, only one rb worth his roster spot all while not having 3/5 of an oline might make it tough when you have 20 plays to call from instead of 80. Thats why teams always seem to know our plays, because they don't have to guess when we trot out certain personnel and formations.
I think Alex is similar to Steve DeBerg who was okay but not good or great and never was consistent. "Good enough to get you beat" as BW said.

I think Raye and this offense never could find their identity. I know they won some games early with very good defense, a decent running game and Hill made some throws when he had to but once Atlanta exposed him (and pretty much our whole team) the underneath stuff was taken away and he could not even get a 1st down vs Houston. So Alex Smith came in, Crabtree signed and all of a sudden you have a much differen't offensive lineup then what was expected and what we had and worked on in TC, so that is why Raye gets a pass. Like I said, Raye did show he could change things up and come up with some differen't formations and be a little more creative and aggressive but I just think Raye does not have the talent for playcalling. He is either calling to many runs in a row or to many passes, he needs to find a balance and call the right play(s) at the right time. Like I said, he deserves to be brought back in 2010 and I think our offensive players deserve to be in the same system for 2 years in a row but the playcalling has to improve as does our O-Line. I think Alex Smith can be a very solid NFL QB who we can win 10+ games with if he has the proper people around him. He is not an elite NFL QB but we are not going to find one in the off-season and he is the best we have and I think he can be good enough.

I agree with your opinion of Raye 100%.

It took Raye about 4-5 weeks of failing to run that WR screen to Crabtree before he eliminated that play.

I'd also like to critique the fact that Raye very rarely calls vertical passing plays. Only when we've been down by a considerable margin have we taken the deep shots. I know that part of it is due to the pass protection of the line, but at least try to keep opposing defenses aware that it's in our arsenal.

To me, it just seems that we've resorted to a very pedantic and predictable short and medium passing game.

-9fA

Good point as well although im not sure Alex Smith would/did have the time to do a lot of vertical passing plays. I think were always going to have some complaints about Raye but it does make sense to bring him back next year and that is when we can truely judge Alex Smith and Jimmy Raye as a OC because they should have a better O-Line to work with and obviously a whole off-season and another year working together in the same system. I hope and think Mike Johnson will also have more input into the offense next year and hopefully a young guy like him can bring some creativity into the offense.

Would really like to see more shots down the field next season in this offense. I also hope Mike Johnson gets more input on offense also.

Originally posted by Ronnie49Lott:

Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:

Originally posted by PatrickJira411:

Originally posted by Ronnie49Lott:
IMO Raye is severely limited by the players at his disposal. Trying to score points while having Hill unable to throw the intermediate/deep ball, Smith with his interception issues, slow wr's, only one rb worth his roster spot all while not having 3/5 of an oline might make it tough when you have 20 plays to call from instead of 80. Thats why teams always seem to know our plays, because they don't have to guess when we trot out certain personnel and formations.
I think Alex is similar to Steve DeBerg who was okay but not good or great and never was consistent. "Good enough to get you beat" as BW said.

I think Raye and this offense never could find their identity. I know they won some games early with very good defense, a decent running game and Hill made some throws when he had to but once Atlanta exposed him (and pretty much our whole team) the underneath stuff was taken away and he could not even get a 1st down vs Houston. So Alex Smith came in, Crabtree signed and all of a sudden you have a much differen't offensive lineup then what was expected and what we had and worked on in TC, so that is why Raye gets a pass. Like I said, Raye did show he could change things up and come up with some differen't formations and be a little more creative and aggressive but I just think Raye does not have the talent for playcalling. He is either calling to many runs in a row or to many passes, he needs to find a balance and call the right play(s) at the right time. Like I said, he deserves to be brought back in 2010 and I think our offensive players deserve to be in the same system for 2 years in a row but the playcalling has to improve as does our O-Line. I think Alex Smith can be a very solid NFL QB who we can win 10+ games with if he has the proper people around him. He is not an elite NFL QB but we are not going to find one in the off-season and he is the best we have and I think he can be good enough.

I agree with your opinion of Raye 100%.

It took Raye about 4-5 weeks of failing to run that WR screen to Crabtree before he eliminated that play.

I'd also like to critique the fact that Raye very rarely calls vertical passing plays. Only when we've been down by a considerable margin have we taken the deep shots. I know that part of it is due to the pass protection of the line, but at least try to keep opposing defenses aware that it's in our arsenal.

To me, it just seems that we've resorted to a very pedantic and predictable short and medium passing game.

-9fA

Raye only has so many options so it's bound to become predictable. After the first couple of games with either qb it looked like defenses knew what was coming. The interception in the Philly game where the cb peeled off the wr and in front of VD on the seam or skinny post route was an example of a defense knowing what was coming.

I thought the MNF game vs Arizona was the first real game our coaches outcoached the other teams coached but man the Philly game, our coaches were so badly outcoached esspecially Raye it was really painful to watch.

Originally posted by PatrickJira411:

Originally posted by Ronnie49Lott:

Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:

Originally posted by PatrickJira411:

Originally posted by Ronnie49Lott:
IMO Raye is severely limited by the players at his disposal. Trying to score points while having Hill unable to throw the intermediate/deep ball, Smith with his interception issues, slow wr's, only one rb worth his roster spot all while not having 3/5 of an oline might make it tough when you have 20 plays to call from instead of 80. Thats why teams always seem to know our plays, because they don't have to guess when we trot out certain personnel and formations.
I think Alex is similar to Steve DeBerg who was okay but not good or great and never was consistent. "Good enough to get you beat" as BW said.

I think Raye and this offense never could find their identity. I know they won some games early with very good defense, a decent running game and Hill made some throws when he had to but once Atlanta exposed him (and pretty much our whole team) the underneath stuff was taken away and he could not even get a 1st down vs Houston. So Alex Smith came in, Crabtree signed and all of a sudden you have a much differen't offensive lineup then what was expected and what we had and worked on in TC, so that is why Raye gets a pass. Like I said, Raye did show he could change things up and come up with some differen't formations and be a little more creative and aggressive but I just think Raye does not have the talent for playcalling. He is either calling to many runs in a row or to many passes, he needs to find a balance and call the right play(s) at the right time. Like I said, he deserves to be brought back in 2010 and I think our offensive players deserve to be in the same system for 2 years in a row but the playcalling has to improve as does our O-Line. I think Alex Smith can be a very solid NFL QB who we can win 10+ games with if he has the proper people around him. He is not an elite NFL QB but we are not going to find one in the off-season and he is the best we have and I think he can be good enough.

I agree with your opinion of Raye 100%.

It took Raye about 4-5 weeks of failing to run that WR screen to Crabtree before he eliminated that play.

I'd also like to critique the fact that Raye very rarely calls vertical passing plays. Only when we've been down by a considerable margin have we taken the deep shots. I know that part of it is due to the pass protection of the line, but at least try to keep opposing defenses aware that it's in our arsenal.

To me, it just seems that we've resorted to a very pedantic and predictable short and medium passing game.

-9fA

Raye only has so many options so it's bound to become predictable. After the first couple of games with either qb it looked like defenses knew what was coming. The interception in the Philly game where the cb peeled off the wr and in front of VD on the seam or skinny post route was an example of a defense knowing what was coming.

I thought the MNF game vs Arizona was the first real game our coaches outcoached the other teams coached but man the Philly game, our coaches were so badly outcoached esspecially Raye it was really painful to watch.

Very true. It's been a few years since have I heard anyone say that our coaches had outschemed the opposition. Very sad when you think that was our calling card for years.

Hmmm ... I noticed this year good teams had to play well to beat us and that is about the only improvement.

Our attempts to improve our oline have been futile during McCloughan's time.

Same old/same old...we're bad this year....we will improve next year...blah...blah...blah...it is sooo old...because we never do. People that are happy with 8 and 8 do not want to do what needs to be done. Run the Yorks out of town and bring in someone who wants to win. It is way too obvious that they don't!

Originally posted by Bobbi9698:
Same old/same old...we're bad this year....we will improve next year...blah...blah...blah...it is sooo old...because we never do. People that are happy with 8 and 8 do not want to do what needs to be done. Run the Yorks out of town and bring in someone who wants to win. It is way too obvious that they don't!

I have a gnawing fear that the Yorks are going to run out of town and take the Niners with them.

Originally posted by PatrickJira411:
Okay, we all agree it was a dissapinting season, although if we finish 8-8 that is about where I thought we would finish before the season began and where I thought our talent level was/is. I think that the good news is we did show we can play with top teams, I mean we could have easily won at Minnesota if not for a perfect 40yd throw by Brett Favre. We played Indy very tough in Indy and I think if Crabtree doesen't fumble and Mark Roman picks off that pass we win and we certainly could have beaten Tennessee if not for a few fluke plays and I thought we totally outplayed Seattle in Seattle but a few really bad calls and some costly mistakes by our own guys cost us that game but when you look at it we could easily be 10-4 right now or 9-5. I think it is a good sign that we did show this year that we can play the top teams tough in their building now certainly it is dissapointing we did not find a way to win those games but I think that doesen't happen overnight. IMO, 2-3 yrs ago we get totally blown out in those games so I do think we are making progress.

Do we need more talent on this team? Sure we could use some. Is coaching a problem? Somewhat but I think you have to give Singletary somewhat of a pass as I do consider him a rookie HC and you have to remember how little NFL coaching experince he has. I like the fact Singletary was willing to adjust during the season and he was not affraid to make lineup changes. Some of them were bad and some of them were good. I am encouraged that Jimmy Raye showed he can adjust his offense during mid-season and showed he can design some nice plays and great creative as well. I think the fact that Raye has coached in the NFL for so long and so many differen't systems and posistions is a plus as he showed he can throw out several differen't formations/offenses. I don't think Raye is a terrible OC but my biggest problem with him is the playcalling. I think playcalling is an art in it self and im not sure Raye is a very good playcaller. I think he is a smart guy who can come with differen't formations and personal groups and design some neat plays but his playcalling is holding him back and always will/

Now I do think Raye should and deserves to be brought back, I think that Singletary-McCloughan-Raye and Alex Smith all deserve another year but they will be on the hot seat next year and let them sink or swim together.

I still think Alex Smith can get better and he showed this year he can be a good NFL starting QB but he needs to get more consistent and also needs his receivers-tight ends to not drop as many passes as they do and fight for the ball and obviously he needs a better O-Line. Do I think Alex Smith will be an elite NFL QB? No but I don't think we need him to be. We just need him to be more consistent as well as our whole offense and team to be more consistent and that is why they should/deserve to get another year in the same system.

So I say bring everyone back and everyone will be on notice next season. We have to hit home runs with our 2 1st rd picks and bring in some O-Line help in FA.
I do think we should bring back all the asssitant coaches with the possible exception of Chris Foerester but im not totally sold on firing him either.

I do feel good about this franchise moving forward, I know we keep saying wait until next year but this year we did prove we can hang with the top teams and if we can just play smarter and more consistant as well as add a few more pieces, I see no reason why we can't be a playoff team next year.

IMO, our biggest needs...O-Line, Safety, Pass rusher, Kick-punt returner, O-Line, cornerback. More on that later.

Hi! Fropwns here. May I summarize your thoughts into a short summary that will be palatable for those who only see a wall of text and for those who prefer, as I do, a bit more meat to our posts?

Intro Paragraph: Look, s**t happens. A couple bobbled balls here, a few bad calls there, and a more matured 49er team and coaching staff could have had wins over the Colts, the Sea Chickens, and over that 49er killer, Bret Farve. We WILL end up 8-8, but I figured, in my infinite wisdom (just f*cking with you :) ), that this would be the end result of this campaign. Yet, we are growing as a franchise. These things, after all, take time.

Second Paragraph: I like Mike Singletary. His experience is negligible, but his heart, his humble nature, specifically, his willingness to abandon smashmouth mid-western football for the finesse of the spread, is impressive. As for Raye, the man can scheme with the best of them, but he calls plays like Fropwns does in Madden, which is why Fro quit playin' Madden because he sucks at it.

If we are going to maintain the status quo of Singletary and Raye, then we must, must I tell you, keep Alex Smith. He will not be an elite NFL quarterback, but so what? History be damned! We do not need an ELITE QB! SAY IT WITH ME!

Besides, if the team plays up to its potential (including Smith), we will solve many of our problems.

Here is how we right the ship:

* Draft O-Linemen
* Draft O-Linemen
* Keep most of our coaches
* Maintain the status quo
* And if it fails, f*ck 'em!

After watching film of Anthony Davis from Rutgers, I am not hoping we get him or Bulaga though Davis has big time pro bowl potential.

Originally posted by PatrickJira411:
After watching film of Anthony Davis from Rutgers, I am not hoping we get him or Bulaga though Davis has big time pro bowl potential.

You're not hoping to get a pro bowl potential right tackle?

Originally posted by chico49erfan:

Originally posted by PatrickJira411:
After watching film of Anthony Davis from Rutgers, I am not hoping we get him or Bulaga though Davis has big time pro bowl potential.

You're not hoping to get a pro bowl potential right tackle?

Of course I am, I meant Bulaga I think is going to be a really, really solid RT in the NFL for 10+yrs while I think Davis has pro bowl potential but may be a bit more of a risky pick than Bulaga.