The Spread Offense

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
The spread isn't good when the team is backed up inside the 15 not because of Smith, but because it's risky throwing the ball in the area close to the goal line AND we can't run the ball. Ideally, OC would like to be conservative in that area, run the ball with consistency, get some room away from the endzone then string together some passes.

It has nothing to do with Smith or what some perceived he lacked.

In a way it does. Smith wasn't very accurate with the quick short throws. In the first half, his quick short throws fluttered or were not on the mark. It was only a few of them. He is very good at the 10+ yard throws but when we are backed up, we need those quick-hitters so that he doesn't get sacked for a Safety.

I think the OL and our running game is known without being said.

Not sure what you're talking about, but if you go back to the 3rd quarter. Smith got us out of a hole inside the ten with a pass down the middle to Crabtree and that was under center

That was a 10+ yard throw. He needs to work on his 1-steppers.

That is when Davis MUST make the correct read or it isn't there. That is when Crabtree must learn to be reliable...same for Morgan. Bruce WAS but he is no longer serviceable. Davis is the key, or at least he has been put in the position of being the key on quick outlets. Perhaps, since he continues to struggle with that, Delanie Walker should be given more of that role.

I agree those quick throws are important but it is all about timing and until the QB knows the receiver is going to run the route correctly, it is natural to be a bit hesitant, which leads to inconsistent throws.

I don't see this as a problem. Most teams struggle when pinned back toward their goalline. The Niners dug themselves out a few times.

The bigger problem yesterday was third down conversions.

A decent punt returner would also help this team. Although at this point I'm glad when the 9ers are just able to field the punt without muffing it.

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
I don't see this as a problem. Most teams struggle when pinned back toward their goalline. The Niners dug themselves out a few times.

The bigger problem yesterday was third down conversions.

Another point I was about to bring up but good thing it got posted.

The playcalling or whatever still does not excuse the pathetic performance on 3rd down conversions. This is why I still point to our lack of ability to get a quick throw and catch. I know it's not all on Alex Smith but there was one quick slant he threw to Crabs but it was behind him.

QB and WRs need to be better coordinated when we need these quick timing routes. There's so little time to execute these that they MUST get it together.

The OL does not matter on these types of quick routes. it's all about timing.

I'm sick of the spread offense, as well as hearing about it.

We were winning when we were running the ball.

Gore should not have less than 20 carries no matter what the score is.

Ask and you shall receive.

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:
I'm sick of the spread offense, as well as hearing about it.

We were winning when we were running the ball.

Gore should not have less than 20 carries no matter what the score is.

Ask and you shall receive.

Gore needed 20 touches. When he only had 9 carries, we should have thrown the ball to him 11 times. We should have used him on circle routes late in the game when we need a big play.

I also think Battle and Hill along with Gore were needed late in the game when we needed a big play. These guys aren't going to blow your socks off, but they have come through when we need it.

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:
I'm sick of the spread offense, as well as hearing about it.

We were winning when we were running the ball.

Gore should not have less than 20 carries no matter what the score is.

Ask and you shall receive.

We are unable to run the ball. The line is unable to runblock or to passprotect when the QB is under Centre.

Originally posted by Joecool:
This offense does us no good when we have terrible field position. We cannot risk running this offense when we are backed up in our own Endzone which is why Alex Smith must be better in other areas and it's why this team must get better in other formations than just the spread.

In the second half, our inability to be successful out of a standard offense killed us. This is why the saying Brady or Manning running the spread most of the time is silly. Not just Smith, but our TEAM MUST be able to have success out of a standard offense because of these bad field position situations.



Brady/Manning from the shotgun a lot statement doesn't hold water.

It's like us being able to throw together a cubism wierd anything goes painting and say we are good artists because we can make something similar to a Picaso.

What people don't understand is that Picaso can paint a NORMAL painting to its details to perfection also.

My Point: Brady/Manning are also GREAT QBs in any type of offense whereas Alex has only proven to be a good QB out of just one type of offense.

What happens when that gets figured out or if Vernon or Crabtree go down and we don't have the weapons to spread? Is Alex as effective anymore? Hopefully, he learns to be a good QB out of any offense.

So many things to pick apart in this statement. I'll start with the Art Reference - CUBISM is NOT a weird anything-goes style, but it is a highly rigid structure of painting/music. I'm not trying to be a snob about it but using this type of metaphor with seemingly no knowledge about the details weakens your argument. Picasso probably could have painted a "normal" painting, but would it have been something that the world would have remembered? I think not. He found the style that best suited him and then developed into a great artist by using the style that was most comfortable to him. enough about art please..

As far as the game is concerned. If you are going to be fair you have to point out that Smith did throw 2 touchdowns out of a more traditional formation in this game.

Also, when the 49ers were backed up in there own end and were forced to run plays out of a short yardage formation you need to break down each possession. If I remember correctly there were two times when the 49ers were backed up enough that they didn't run any shotgun plays. The first possession they had three runs in a row. The Next possession they threw out of the formation, and advanced down the field until a turnover stopped the drive. In that drive, after getting out from their endzone they immediately began calling shotgun plays and were moving the ball fine.


I guess what I'm saying is that your point is not backed up with any real facts.
If I am wrong about those two drives or if there was another drive in which the 49ers failed to advance out of a traditional formation then if someone wants to get the actual numbers I will revise what I said.

finally, Tom Brady is SO MUCH more effective out of the exact same offense as Alex Smith. the patriots do sometimes pass out of other sets, (usually play-action much like the 49ers are doing) but they can successfully RUN also which the 49ers have not been able to do consistently. Peyton is a different story.. just good all the time.

Originally posted by dtcomposer:

Originally posted by Joecool:
This offense does us no good when we have terrible field position. We cannot risk running this offense when we are backed up in our own Endzone which is why Alex Smith must be better in other areas and it's why this team must get better in other formations than just the spread.

In the second half, our inability to be successful out of a standard offense killed us. This is why the saying Brady or Manning running the spread most of the time is silly. Not just Smith, but our TEAM MUST be able to have success out of a standard offense because of these bad field position situations.



Brady/Manning from the shotgun a lot statement doesn't hold water.

It's like us being able to throw together a cubism wierd anything goes painting and say we are good artists because we can make something similar to a Picaso.

What people don't understand is that Picaso can paint a NORMAL painting to its details to perfection also.

My Point: Brady/Manning are also GREAT QBs in any type of offense whereas Alex has only proven to be a good QB out of just one type of offense.

What happens when that gets figured out or if Vernon or Crabtree go down and we don't have the weapons to spread? Is Alex as effective anymore? Hopefully, he learns to be a good QB out of any offense.

So many things to pick apart in this statement. I'll start with the Art Reference - CUBISM is NOT a weird anything-goes style, but it is a highly rigid structure of painting/music. I'm not trying to be a snob about it but using this type of metaphor with seemingly no knowledge about the details weakens your argument. Picasso probably could have painted a "normal" painting, but would it have been something that the world would have remembered? I think not. He found the style that best suited him and then developed into a great artist by using the style that was most comfortable to him. enough about art please..

As far as the game is concerned. If you are going to be fair you have to point out that Smith did throw 2 touchdowns out of a more traditional formation in this game.

Also, when the 49ers were backed up in there own end and were forced to run plays out of a short yardage formation you need to break down each possession. If I remember correctly there were two times when the 49ers were backed up enough that they didn't run any shotgun plays. The first possession they had three runs in a row. The Next possession they threw out of the formation, and advanced down the field until a turnover stopped the drive. In that drive, after getting out from their endzone they immediately began calling shotgun plays and were moving the ball fine.


I guess what I'm saying is that your point is not backed up with any real facts.
If I am wrong about those two drives or if there was another drive in which the 49ers failed to advance out of a traditional formation then if someone wants to get the actual numbers I will revise what I said.

finally, Tom Brady is SO MUCH more effective out of the exact same offense as Alex Smith. the patriots do sometimes pass out of other sets, (usually play-action much like the 49ers are doing) but they can successfully RUN also which the 49ers have not been able to do consistently. Peyton is a different story.. just good all the time.

1. You should see some of Picaso's "normal" artwork. It kicks mosts artists' asses which is where you missed my point. He was noticed for one thing as Brady and Manning are but he was still able to create better artwork than other artists in terms of "normal" artwork as can Brady and Manning in a traditional set formation. They are just great and you can't just make a blanket statement that they succeed out of this so we don't need Alex to be able to run a traditional set effectively.

2. We punted 5 times in the second half before we got something goin. I'm sure they weren't all run-run-run.

[ Edited by Joecool on Dec 7, 2009 at 13:31:05 ]

One thing is for sure, with the way this offense has looked in the last two games, we should now blow out teams like the Rams and Detroit. The next step is to gain consistency with out play and not disappear for a quarter or a half.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:
I'm sick of the spread offense, as well as hearing about it.

We were winning when we were running the ball.

Gore should not have less than 20 carries no matter what the score is.

Ask and you shall receive.

Gore needed 20 touches. When he only had 9 carries, we should have thrown the ball to him 11 times. We should have used him on circle routes late in the game when we need a big play.

That is the kind of thing I have been harping on for weeks now. Raye seems so one-dimensional in his thinking. He either pounds it up the middle or throws it in some relatively predictable location. He doesn't appear to know how to get Frank involved except through power runs or poorly conceived screen passes.

Quote:
I also think Battle and Hill along with Gore were needed late in the game when we needed a big play. These guys aren't going to blow your socks off, but they have come through when we need it.

Yep, that too. Raye seems to get caught up in the game and does not have the ability to adjust his thinking to the situation.

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by KknighthawkK_9er:
I'm sick of the spread offense, as well as hearing about it.

We were winning when we were running the ball.

Gore should not have less than 20 carries no matter what the score is.

Ask and you shall receive.

Gore needed 20 touches. When he only had 9 carries, we should have thrown the ball to him 11 times. We should have used him on circle routes late in the game when we need a big play.

That is the kind of thing I have been harping on for weeks now. Raye seems so one-dimensional in his thinking. He either pounds it up the middle or throws it in some relatively predictable location. He doesn't appear to know how to get Frank involved except through power runs or poorly conceived screen passes.

Quote:
I also think Battle and Hill along with Gore were needed late in the game when we needed a big play. These guys aren't going to blow your socks off, but they have come through when we need it.

Yep, that too. Raye seems to get caught up in the game and does not have the ability to adjust his thinking to the situation.

He gets tunnel vision. We don't need that type of OC because he will keep losing us games. If we win 10, then we should have won 12 because of him.

FYI, from the end of the 2nd quarter throughout the entire 3rd quarter, we punted 6 times and of those 6, only ONE was more than 3 plays...that ONE was only 5 plays.

Terrible!!! The spread is supposed to help to be an extension of the run and we are not executing our short yardage passess effectively enough.

Originally posted by Joecool:
FYI, from the end of the 2nd quarter throughout the entire 3rd quarter, we punted 6 times and of those 6, only ONE was more than 3 plays...that ONE was only 5 plays.

Terrible!!! The spread is supposed to help to be an extension of the run and we are not executing our short yardage passess effectively enough.

A good OC will keep a few plays for the beginning of the second half that he didn't use in the first. He assumes the defense will make some adjustments to he gives them something new to think about. Raye went back to 1952 for his second half "new" plays.

Originally posted by Joecool:
This offense does us no good when we have terrible field position. We cannot risk running this offense when we are backed up in our own Endzone which is why Alex Smith must be better in other areas and it's why this team must get better in other formations than just the spread.

In the second half, our inability to be successful out of a standard offense killed us. This is why the saying Brady or Manning running the spread most of the time is silly. Not just Smith, but our TEAM MUST be able to have success out of a standard offense because of these bad field position situations.



Brady/Manning from the shotgun a lot statement doesn't hold water.


Alright lets not look at the bad, rather lets watch him improve with his accuracy and how he's not turning the ball over anymore.
- note: We actually didn't give up a sack for approx. 90 plays until our last game and that says something about why he is performing so well.

That O-line has done something to change their play and its been working so far. So what I am saying is that we should focus on the positives that we have and hopefully those little mistakes will be fixed on their own so that we don't have to worry about them too much.

- By the way, I don't know if anyone has noticed this, although Singletary's play style was not working and did not fit with Alex, there's something that he was right about all this time that didn't come into play our last game..........

"We need to learn how to finish our games"
Once we get that, everything will start working and we won't lose these close games that we get into.