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When did we get rid of the WCO??

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Originally posted by valrod33:
Originally posted by Adman:
Originally posted by valrod33:
Originally posted by Adman:
In 2005 Mike McCarthy ran the WCO. After Alex's horrible rookie season Nolan fired McCarthy for Norv Turner because the digit system is a lot easier to learn and grasp for younger players. The WCO is one of the more difficult offenses to learn.

Add to that the fact that Alex isn't a functional QB unless he knows every intricate detail of the offense...that's why they got rid of it. Plus i think Nolan felt Alex's strengths were the longer downfield passes instead of the short slants and quicker routes.

Mccarthy wasnt fired

He was offered the HC job at GB?! Seems so long ago.

yeah so your idea that he was fired because the WCO was too hard for Alex Smith is just plain stupid, get your facts straight

Facts wrong idea right!
Alex lacks touch and timing for west coast offense, just watch him he throws down field out of the gun with great force and accuracy, but looks awkward as ass trying to check down.

Watch his feet he comes close to tripping over himself 2-3 times a game when pulling out from under center, if we are going anywhere with Alex it is out of the gun, even his short passes look better out of the gun.

Bread and butter of the west coast offense is the split back one tight end tree step drop quick tempo passing game. We have too many of the wrong kind of players for it, we need small athletic O-linmen who can get out and pull on sweeps, we need a quick trigger qb with poise in the pocket, we need a full back who is a triple threat, run, catch, and block!

On the other hand, Davis, Gore, Crabtree, and Morgan are all prototypical WCO players, and small athletic linemen are a dime a dozen, and that kid at Stanford looks like a prototypical west coast FB....
McCarthy took it with him to GB. And we wanted bigger body on the line with Jennings and Larry Allen. Norv came in as OC and the WCO was as good as dead. We even shipped out Smiley even though he's good but don't fit what we wanted on the line.
We actually stopped running the WCO when Mooch was the Head Coach. Yes it was STILL the WCO, but it was gutted.

We got rid of it entirely in Erickson's second year.

ALSO McCarthy never ran the WCO as the Coordinator in San Francisco. He ran WCO plays but it was NOT the WCO.

~Ceadder
[ Edited by Ceadderman on Nov 16, 2009 at 1:56 PM ]
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
We actually stopped running the WCO when Mooch was the Head Coach. Yes it was STILL the WCO, but it was gutted.

We got rid of it entirely in Erickson's second year.

ALSO McCarthy never ran the WCO as the Coordinator in San Francisco. He ran WCO plays but it was NOT the WCO.

~Ceadder

Then wouldn't that be running the WCO?
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
We actually stopped running the WCO when Mooch was the Head Coach. Yes it was STILL the WCO, but it was gutted.

We got rid of it entirely in Erickson's second year.

ALSO McCarthy never ran the WCO as the Coordinator in San Francisco. He ran WCO plays but it was NOT the WCO.

~Ceadder

Yeah, I remember we were mostly two back split and then Hearst came along. He was so good Mooch wanted to run more out of the I formation. And suddenly we were more of a running team with Hearst and Garcia.
Originally posted by BETTERDAYZ9ERS:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
We actually stopped running the WCO when Mooch was the Head Coach. Yes it was STILL the WCO, but it was gutted.

We got rid of it entirely in Erickson's second year.

ALSO McCarthy never ran the WCO as the Coordinator in San Francisco. He ran WCO plays but it was NOT the WCO.

~Ceadder

Then wouldn't that be running the WCO?

Naw it wouldn't, Ceadder is right, running a few WCO style plays is not running the WCO. It is like saying the Dolphins are a wildcat team, because the use that formation, the wco is more than just a formation, it is a mindset.
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
Originally posted by BETTERDAYZ9ERS:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
We actually stopped running the WCO when Mooch was the Head Coach. Yes it was STILL the WCO, but it was gutted.

We got rid of it entirely in Erickson's second year.

ALSO McCarthy never ran the WCO as the Coordinator in San Francisco. He ran WCO plays but it was NOT the WCO.

~Ceadder

Then wouldn't that be running the WCO?

Naw it wouldn't, Ceadder is right, running a few WCO style plays is not running the WCO. It is like saying the Dolphins are a wildcat team, because the use that formation, the wco is more than just a formation, it is a mindset.

You're right about Alex not being fit for the WCO because of his accuracy on short intermediate throws. This morning on Sirius radio they talked about how McCarthy was one of the voices in helping Nolan draft Smith over Rodgers. Then McCarthy went on to say that Alex was getting better in his system as he finished the year. When I see Green Bay they sure throw a lot of slants and rack up YAC.
Originally posted by BETTERDAYZ9ERS:
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
Originally posted by BETTERDAYZ9ERS:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
We actually stopped running the WCO when Mooch was the Head Coach. Yes it was STILL the WCO, but it was gutted.

We got rid of it entirely in Erickson's second year.

ALSO McCarthy never ran the WCO as the Coordinator in San Francisco. He ran WCO plays but it was NOT the WCO.

~Ceadder

Then wouldn't that be running the WCO?

Naw it wouldn't, Ceadder is right, running a few WCO style plays is not running the WCO. It is like saying the Dolphins are a wildcat team, because the use that formation, the wco is more than just a formation, it is a mindset.

You're right about Alex not being fit for the WCO because of his accuracy on short intermediate throws. This morning on Sirius radio they talked about how McCarthy was one of the voices in helping Nolan draft Smith over Rodgers. Then McCarthy went on to say that Alex was getting better in his system as he finished the year. When I see Green Bay they sure throw a lot of slants and rack up YAC.

I think you're selling Smith short on him not being able to run the WCO. For a guy that was shotgun offense, he's doing pretty good dropping back from center. It took more time to develop his drop back but he came out of it ok. I don't see any reason he couldn't operate a WCO with teaching. He just wasn't introduce to it enough to be viable.

Remember Carmazzi... he wasn't in the prostyle offense either if I remember right but Mooch and Walsh must have seen something that give an indication that they can work with the guy. It obviously didn't work out. But the point is coaches can and will develop guys into the system.
Originally posted by qnnhan7:
Originally posted by BETTERDAYZ9ERS:
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
Originally posted by BETTERDAYZ9ERS:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
We actually stopped running the WCO when Mooch was the Head Coach. Yes it was STILL the WCO, but it was gutted.

We got rid of it entirely in Erickson's second year.

ALSO McCarthy never ran the WCO as the Coordinator in San Francisco. He ran WCO plays but it was NOT the WCO.

~Ceadder

Then wouldn't that be running the WCO?

Naw it wouldn't, Ceadder is right, running a few WCO style plays is not running the WCO. It is like saying the Dolphins are a wildcat team, because the use that formation, the wco is more than just a formation, it is a mindset.

You're right about Alex not being fit for the WCO because of his accuracy on short intermediate throws. This morning on Sirius radio they talked about how McCarthy was one of the voices in helping Nolan draft Smith over Rodgers. Then McCarthy went on to say that Alex was getting better in his system as he finished the year. When I see Green Bay they sure throw a lot of slants and rack up YAC.

I think you're selling Smith short on him not being able to run the WCO. For a guy that was shotgun offense, he's doing pretty good dropping back from center. It took more time to develop his drop back but he came out of it ok. I don't see any reason he couldn't operate a WCO with teaching. He just wasn't introduce to it enough to be viable.

Remember Carmazzi... he wasn't in the prostyle offense either if I remember right but Mooch and Walsh must have seen something that give an indication that they can work with the guy. It obviously didn't work out. But the point is coaches can and will develop guys into the system.

No I initially said he was good for the WCO. Then I thought about what Gotalittlecamper said and I realized he does struggle with the short quick throws. Not to say he couldn't fix that aspect but McCarthy could have been the guy to do it if he stuck around. Who knows what could have happened.
[ Edited by BETTERDAYZ9ERS on Nov 16, 2009 at 2:45 PM ]
Originally posted by BETTERDAYZ9ERS:
Originally posted by qnnhan7:
Originally posted by BETTERDAYZ9ERS:
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
Originally posted by BETTERDAYZ9ERS:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
We actually stopped running the WCO when Mooch was the Head Coach. Yes it was STILL the WCO, but it was gutted.

We got rid of it entirely in Erickson's second year.

ALSO McCarthy never ran the WCO as the Coordinator in San Francisco. He ran WCO plays but it was NOT the WCO.

~Ceadder

Then wouldn't that be running the WCO?

Naw it wouldn't, Ceadder is right, running a few WCO style plays is not running the WCO. It is like saying the Dolphins are a wildcat team, because the use that formation, the wco is more than just a formation, it is a mindset.

You're right about Alex not being fit for the WCO because of his accuracy on short intermediate throws. This morning on Sirius radio they talked about how McCarthy was one of the voices in helping Nolan draft Smith over Rodgers. Then McCarthy went on to say that Alex was getting better in his system as he finished the year. When I see Green Bay they sure throw a lot of slants and rack up YAC.

I think you're selling Smith short on him not being able to run the WCO. For a guy that was shotgun offense, he's doing pretty good dropping back from center. It took more time to develop his drop back but he came out of it ok. I don't see any reason he couldn't operate a WCO with teaching. He just wasn't introduce to it enough to be viable.

Remember Carmazzi... he wasn't in the prostyle offense either if I remember right but Mooch and Walsh must have seen something that give an indication that they can work with the guy. It obviously didn't work out. But the point is coaches can and will develop guys into the system.

No I initially said he was good for the WCO. Then I thought about what Gotalittlecamper said and I realized he does struggle with the short quick throws. Not to say he couldn't fix that aspect but McCarthy could have been the guy to do it if he stuck around. Who knows what could have happened.

My bad... It's slow here at work. Just wanted to start something mean and serious with yah.
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the same year we got rid of offense with a killer instinct all together... it's been so long that we moved into the conservative "don't lose the game" approach as opposed to the "lets go out and score as much as possible" approach that I forget when exactly that was...
Originally posted by Adman:
In 2005 Mike McCarthy ran the WCO. After Alex's horrible rookie season Nolan fired McCarthy for Norv Turner because the digit system is a lot easier to learn and grasp for younger players. The WCO is one of the more difficult offenses to learn.

Add to that the fact that Alex isn't a functional QB unless he knows every intricate detail of the offense...that's why they got rid of it. Plus i think Nolan felt Alex's strengths were the longer downfield passes instead of the short slants and quicker routes.


Maybe you should read some history. Mike McCarthy wasn't fired. He was hired as the HC of Green Bay.
Originally posted by MadMartz:
When Mooch and Greg Knapp left the WCO left with them.

Hardly, the WCO left when Seifert left. Mooch and Knapp slowly phased it out over the years.
It was cuz of Nolan... and his firing of McCarthy. Even though it's a hard offense to learn for young players because of the terminology I think it would actually fit our team better. They have problems with pass protection. The quick passes would help our O-line look better because they wouldn't have to pass protect for as long. And I actually think that it would fit Alex better than the current offense. Even though he looked horrible in it in his rookies season... so did EVERYONE else on the team. The reason I feel it would be better for Alex because he wouldn't have as long to think about what he was going to do. They're all quick reads, quick releases. Very rarely do you go down field which would be a good thing as I don't feel we have the type of team to stretch the field as often as we'd like too. However, once we get a speed receiver that's when we could send him down field once in a while to keep the safeties honest.
Originally posted by jays9ers:
Looking at all of the offensive threads I thought I'd make another one .. No but in all seriousness when did lose our offensive idenditity?? It was our staple for dang near 20 years then....yea it was gone.. Was it Erickson who changed the philosophy? I really don't even remember what the hell he ran?? I just think, the day we turned our back on the WCO, our offense died that day...... It has yet to be seen since.

My question is, why not go back to it? I think it would fit Sing's scheme very well. It's still a ball controlling offense, that relys heavily on timing, shorter routes, and the qb getting the ball out of his hands... So why didn't we go that route instead of Raye's god afful offensive scheme?

To answer this question, you need to review the history of the West Coast Offense run by Bill Walsh and George Seifert between 1988 and 1996. Since then, the 49ers haven't run the true Walsh West Coast offense as designed by Bill Walsh himself. Offensive Coordinators came and went, but Walsh designed and ran the original West Coast schemes that George Seifert implemented through various assistants until the end of the 1996 season.

I've provided a slightly brief history of the progression of Walsh's West Coast Offense to Jimmy Raye's Offense.

The Mariucci Years (1997 - 2002) - The decline of the West Coast Offense begun with the (partially forced) retirement of George Seifert. Marty Mornhinweg, who had been taught Mike Holmgren's offense in Green Bay, was asked to take over for Marc Trestman by Steve Mariucci without any direct coaching from both Walsh or Marc Trestman, who had aided in the transition between Walsh and Seifert.

Mariucci wanted to run the ball more, as he did so with success at Cal Berkeley in 1996. 1997 would mark the first time a running back (Garrison Hearst) would rush for over 1,000 yards in five seasons. This shift in philosophies was gradual; Steve Young would retire in 1999 while Rice was released following the 2000 season. Both of these events led to a change in philosophies based on personnel. Jeff Garcia wasn't Steve Young and Terrell Owens wasn't Jerry Rice. Both played at high levels while with the 49ers, but neither had the abilities of the former to run Walsh's West Coast Offense effectively.

Marty Mornhinweg's offense was (and still is) less about throwing early and more about establishing deep passing opportunities early to set up sweeps and slants. Quick slants and screens are just about the only thing West Coast about Mornhinweg's offense.

Greg Knapp followed Mornhinweg's offense with even more running. His departure following the 2003 season would signify the final link between the 49ers and any sibilance of the West Coast Offense.

The Erickson Years (2003 - 2004) - Erickson was handed the keys to a sinking ship in 2003, though his lack of coaching abilities ultimately sped up not only his own demise, but the demise of a playoff team with salary cap issues ahead.

Ted Tollner, then the 49ers Quarterbacks coached, was asked to call plays for the first time in 13 years (San Diego Chargers, 1991). He was asked to install Erickson's Oregon State offense in addition to parts of the West Coast offense, which led to a league worst finish of 2-14.

The Nolan Years (2005 - 2008) - Following the firing of Erickson and the removal of just about every coach on staff, Nolan hired Mike McCarthy to coach the offense. McCarthy brought a West Coast derivative offense to San Francisco, leaving Erickson's hybrid model from 2004 in the past. Following McCarthy's hiring in Green Bay, Norv Turner was brought in. Part of the draw for Nolan was how closely Turner's offense resembled McCarthy's, though his style was distinctly more Coryell than Walsh.

Turner found a Head Coaching job following the 2007 season, which brought Mike Martz to San Francisco. Martz's offense had it's foundations in the Coryell Offense, but was much more complex and wasn't functional for the talent available on the roster.

The Singletary Years (2009 - )This brings us up to speed. Jimmy Raye is the current offensive coordinator for Mike Singletary. Raye's offensive roots have always been deeply planted in Coryell's model. Raye believes in establishing the run to set up the passing attack, which pushes the ball vertically down the field. Much of Raye's failure in 2009 has been attributed to poor offensive line play, which hasn't allowed both Shaun Hill and Alex Smith to get the ball down the field with enough time.

So to completely answer your post, I'll re-ask your question:

Why doesn't the current team go back to the West Coast Offense (presumably in 2010)?

Based on current the NFL rules and player abilities, Walsh's version of the West Coast Offense isn't a functional offensive model. It's why no current NFL offensive coordinator still runs Walsh's offense, though many offenses take Walsh's model as a base.

The closest offenses to Walsh's West Cost model would be Bill Belichick's offense in New England and Ken Whisenhunt's offense in Arizona. Both heavily rely on quick passing patterns on first down. Changing offenses isn't as easy as flicking a switch. In many cases, personnel dictates the style of offense a team should run.

Ultimately, Mike Singletary has indicated he wants a team that can run successfully on both running and passing downs. He's opened his approach up some within the last few weeks, so it should be interesting to see if Raye continues to modify his game plans to meet Singletary's wishes.
[ Edited by redrathman on Nov 16, 2009 at 4:22 PM ]
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