O-Line Observation

Originally posted by Giants9ersfan:
There is something that I have been noticing with the the Niners O-Line and "successful" O-Lines in the league. The Niners O-Line seems to give up ground rather quickly (in passing situations) other than engaging the coming D-Line. I notice with Pit tonight and Ten that both O-Lines seem to quickly close the LG C RG...where they work as a unit, and the Tackles keep the rushers to the outside. Our line seems to collapse at every individual position. I don't know if this is coaching or a lack of our line working together cohesively or both? We have big guys...supposedly talented...but they together just don't get the job done very well. Anyone else have this observation?

Is it all the above as well as a lack of true deep threat receivers and lack of an established QB?

Ok ok...overall is it really the individuals on the O-Line or...the O-Line scheme, defensive schemes their going up against, and lack of big play WR and established QB?

That's a great observation. Such teamwork "working as a unit" only comes from playing together.

Finally, we have a line that has played some time together.

People forget the 1981 team but that line had really been together for 3 years, Fahnhorst, Ayers, Quinlan, Cross. They gave up a lot of sacks (on DeBerg lol) but they also paved the way for one of the most gutsy 49ers ever -- Paul Hofer.

Except for Rachal, who hasn't even started 10 games, these guys have played together.

Marvel Smith (at the Pro Bowl level) would have been nice. Snyder has been great as a swiss army knife. I'm glad he has settled into a position.

Originally posted by wysiwyg:

Originally posted by Giants9ersfan:
There is something that I have been noticing with the the Niners O-Line and "successful" O-Lines in the league. The Niners O-Line seems to give up ground rather quickly (in passing situations) other than engaging the coming D-Line. I notice with Pit tonight and Ten that both O-Lines seem to quickly close the LG C RG...where they work as a unit, and the Tackles keep the rushers to the outside. Our line seems to collapse at every individual position. I don't know if this is coaching or a lack of our line working together cohesively or both? We have big guys...supposedly talented...but they together just don't get the job done very well. Anyone else have this observation?

Is it all the above as well as a lack of true deep threat receivers and lack of an established QB?

Ok ok...overall is it really the individuals on the O-Line or...the O-Line scheme, defensive schemes their going up against, and lack of big play WR and established QB?

That's a great observation. Such teamwork "working as a unit" only comes from playing together.

Finally, we have a line that has played some time together.

People forget the 1981 team but that line had really been together for 3 years, Fahnhorst, Ayers, Quinlan, Cross. They gave up a lot of sacks (on DeBerg lol) but they also paved the way for one of the most gutsy 49ers ever -- Paul Hofer.

Except for Rachal, who hasn't even started 10 games, these guys have played together.

Marvel Smith (at the Pro Bowl level) would have been nice. Snyder has been great as a swiss army knife. I'm glad he has settled into a position.

So then with all that said...is it the technique that they are being taught or mistakes that they are not being coached to fix? The pocket will close naturally...our line seems to help the natural progression of the defense closing the pocket.

Originally posted by Giants9ersfan:

Originally posted by wysiwyg:

Originally posted by Giants9ersfan:
There is something that I have been noticing with the the Niners O-Line and "successful" O-Lines in the league. The Niners O-Line seems to give up ground rather quickly (in passing situations) other than engaging the coming D-Line. I notice with Pit tonight and Ten that both O-Lines seem to quickly close the LG C RG...where they work as a unit, and the Tackles keep the rushers to the outside. Our line seems to collapse at every individual position. I don't know if this is coaching or a lack of our line working together cohesively or both? We have big guys...supposedly talented...but they together just don't get the job done very well. Anyone else have this observation?

Is it all the above as well as a lack of true deep threat receivers and lack of an established QB?

Ok ok...overall is it really the individuals on the O-Line or...the O-Line scheme, defensive schemes their going up against, and lack of big play WR and established QB?

That's a great observation. Such teamwork "working as a unit" only comes from playing together.

Finally, we have a line that has played some time together.

People forget the 1981 team but that line had really been together for 3 years, Fahnhorst, Ayers, Quinlan, Cross. They gave up a lot of sacks (on DeBerg lol) but they also paved the way for one of the most gutsy 49ers ever -- Paul Hofer.

Except for Rachal, who hasn't even started 10 games, these guys have played together.

Marvel Smith (at the Pro Bowl level) would have been nice. Snyder has been great as a swiss army knife. I'm glad he has settled into a position.

So then with all that said...is it the technique that they are being taught or mistakes that they are not being coached to fix? The pocket will close naturally...our line seems to help the natural progression of the defense closing the pocket.

Bob McKittrick was a genius.

He made a LT out of a puffed up Guard Derrick Deese, who didn't give up a sack in like 2 years straight.

I guess that means coaching is key ;)

god u guys make it seem like our pocket collapses all the time no matter what.

there are actual times when a 49er qb does have time to throw the ball, i know, its crazy but does indeed happen.

Originally posted by WestCoast:
god u guys make it seem like our pocket collapses all the time no matter what.

there are actual times when a 49er qb does have time to throw the ball, i know, its crazy but does indeed happen.

It happens just not often enough.

Our OL usually holds up long enough for the QB to get 3.5 seconds, but too often, no more than that. That is why having a good DL can make such a difference. We are used to watching our DL attack OLs... and it usually takes a while to collapse their pocket (if it does at all), and the ball is often out by then. So I don't think it's our OL as much as just a real look at what a good DL can do to an OL and quickly.

sidenote: It was a pleasure watching the schemes of Lebeau last night, and it would sure be nice to one day have our scheme and personnel looking so coordinated as the Steelers did. Hope Manusky was taking notes.

You could also point out the opposite. Our D Line never seems to get any rush up the middle, and the outside rushers are kept at bay, so our poor DB's have to cover for up to 6 seconds. A very difficult task.

Well one problem is our O-Line isn't overly talented in the first place but I think they are a lot better than people give them credit for.

I do believe a problem we have is defenses at the moment really have no respect for our passing game which means they are going to focus more on the blitz rather than worry about coverage. I mean obviously when we give up a gaudy number of sacks, as a defensive coordinator I'm going to be blitzing like crazy unless they start doing serious damage.

Which is why I think we'll be helped if VD gets more involved in the passing game. If we can dump off the ball to him when we get blitzed and he racks up the YAC than you'll force defenses to call off the dogs a bit and have to focus more on coverage.

Also another key problem to consider is our offense in general has been lousy at putting themselves in manageable 3rd downs. When you're in a spot where you need 8 to 10 yards for the first than the defense has a serious advantage because they know you have to pass on top of having to throw a moderate ranged pass. That means you can put on the blitz without much concern with the QB dumping it off to the RB or other very short blitz killing routes.

So with all that said I think the major key is not exactly our OL play but mainly defeating the pass rush by making sure we make teams pay for blitzing.

Interesting that you point up the Pittsburg O-Line. What saves and kills that O-line is one and the same. Rothlisberger, although not very nimble, is great at sliding, and getting away from pressure. Most of their sacks are not due to the lines blocking, but Rothlisberger holding onto the ball too long.

I look at Pitt versus SF O-line as completely different. There run blocking sucks this year, and did most of last year. There pass blocking is what got them the SB.

On the other hand, our O-line still has not perfected pass blocking, but is pretty darned good at run blocking.

Our O-line should get better at pass blocking if the same 5 guys are out there for a few games in a row. Our QB has not shown the elusiveness of Ben Rothlisberger, and that can help the O-line look better.

Even without Marvel Smith, we should be okay if the guys just learn to pass block a little bit better. The oline of the niners has been pretty bad at it dating back to the last years of Steve Young.

Originally posted by oldman9er:
sidenote: It was a pleasure watching the schemes of Lebeau last night, and it would sure be nice to one day have our scheme and personnel looking so coordinated as the Steelers did. Hope Manusky was taking notes.

Amen! I hope our fans were watching too b/c that's how a real 3-4 is played. None of this vanilla and predictable stuff.

Originally posted by Giants9ersfan:
There is something that I have been noticing with the the Niners O-Line and "successful" O-Lines in the league. The Niners O-Line seems to give up ground rather quickly (in passing situations) other than engaging the coming D-Line. I notice with Pit tonight and Ten that both O-Lines seem to quickly close the LG C RG...where they work as a unit, and the Tackles keep the rushers to the outside. Our line seems to collapse at every individual position. I don't know if this is coaching or a lack of our line working together cohesively or both? We have big guys...supposedly talented...but they together just don't get the job done very well. Anyone else have this observation?

Is it all the above as well as a lack of true deep threat receivers and lack of an established QB?

It is also possible that they are simply not very good.

mike martz.

It doesn't help that Baas missed his 2nd training camp in a row.