Colin Kaepernick and the huge white gibbon

Originally posted by LBSI9ers:

OTC my statement you higlighted is clear great QBs make the O Line better.

Cassel is not a great QB so how is this example relevant?

Yates? not a great QB. Not a relevant example.

Rivers is on his third string players. So basicaly sht O line goes to functional.

None of these examples are of great QBs making their line worse. I think your point is that a great O line makes an average QB average based on your examples.

My example was that the opposite was true for Cassel. Cassel is not great, yet looked great behind the same OL that Brady was behind, the year that Brady was out for the season.

Same thing for Yates. Playing with what was Schaub's line before he got hurt, Yates picks up wins against Atlanta and on the road against Cincy throwing for 300 yards and 2 TDs despite being a 3rd string rookie. He had all the time in the world to make plays.

Rivers on the other hand, after losing his two Pro Bowl OL looked HORRENDOUS. Six straight losses and sacked relentlessly, throwing 10 interceptions in that span. His line has finally started to fix their issues and they got a ton of help picking up Gaither and now look? Now that he's getting lots of protection he's doing well again!

This is the point. Rivers looked embarrassing without his starting OL. Now that he's got his center back, they picked up a LT, and the other guard has improved, San Diego is doing much better because their OL is opening up holes in the running game and finally protecting Rivers.

Originally posted by m_brockalexander:
Your whole premise is faulty. If all the top notch QB's declare this year, none of them will be available in the late 20's when the Niners pick. There are the Colts, the Redskins, the Dolphins, Cleveland (with two picks), and the Seahawks in the top 20 that all have a HUGE need for a franchise QB. End of story.

Yes, we may have to trade to aquire a talent like Landry. But again, the holes we have can be filled in free agency so draft picks this year arn't as super citical as in the past. Many squads like those above will have lots of options to aquire QBs before the draft like Matt Flynn and Peyton Manning. The Colts may or may not draft Luck. So your statment of "end of story" and it's as obvious as the sun is yellow statment is the flawed premise.

OTC, you really can't make that statement about Rivers. NOBODY even the great Manning can survive at the pro level with the players Rivers had. He was playing with 3rd string players. I never said that a great QB fixes everything with poor O-line play. Nor did I suggest that great QBs fix the economy, move the earth, and cure cancer. I said a great QB can cover up flaws in the line and make them better. I think a better example of great O-line play and the QB is in Denver with Tebow. That O-line is underrated. Look at Philly and Pittsburgh. Vick and Ben cover up the talentless O line play. Brees' movement in the pocket yesterday eliminated Allen. Manning clearly covered up the poor O-line. And finally, I am not for any reason saying the QBs in this class are Peyton Manning. Just saying the top 4 QBs this year are franchise quality QBs which in unusual. There is a probability that one maybe available around when we pick. One thing to note, the great head coaches like Walsh and Jimmy Johnson understood that competition at the QB spot is critical to success.

Originally posted by LBSI9ers:

Originally posted by m_brockalexander:
Your whole premise is faulty. If all the top notch QB's declare this year, none of them will be available in the late 20's when the Niners pick. There are the Colts, the Redskins, the Dolphins, Cleveland (with two picks), and the Seahawks in the top 20 that all have a HUGE need for a franchise QB. End of story.

Yes, we may have to trade to aquire a talent like Landry. But again, the holes we have can be filled in free agency so draft picks this year arn't as super citical as in the past. Many squads like those above will have lots of options to aquire QBs before the draft like Matt Flynn and Peyton Manning. The Colts may or may not draft Luck. So your statment of "end of story" and it's as obvious as the sun is yellow statment is the flawed premise.

Draft picks this year aren't as super critical as in the past? The holes we have can be filled in free agency? Let's go back a few months to the end of the lockout and this is what Baalke was quoted as saying about free agency:

BAALKE: .... It's tough for the fans to look at it and they hear us saying we're going to take a patient approach when we've had as many seasons as we've had and not made the playoffs. That's totally understandable. But we are going to be patient. We have been patient. We do have a plan. We're executing the plan. And I guess the only thing that's going to tell is the test of time, and how successful this plan is will be measured with how successful we become on the field.

The Niners did not make a big splash and the front office in place prefers to build through the draft. The idea of them trading a bunch of draft picks to get a QB this year does not fit with their profile. In regards to all the other teams needing franchise QB's, what is the least expensive way to get what they need? Using a first round pick. With the rookie salary cap, there are no more huge salary cap hits like Sam Bradford's $ 55 million guaranteed to get a QB in the first round. No offense, but as of right now, I don't see the Niners making a play for a QB in next year's draft.

Originally posted by LBSI9ers:
OTC my statement you higlighted is clear great QBs make the O Line better.

Cassel is not a great QB so how is this example relevant?

Yates? not a great QB. Not a relevant example.

Rivers is on his third string players. So basicaly sht O line goes to functional.

None of these examples are of great QBs making their line worse. I think your point is that a great O line makes an average QB average based on your examples.

Originally posted by LBSI9ers:
Yep you need to draft players to catch the balls. Just not in the first round. Out of the top 5 receivers in the NFL this year 1. C Johnson was drafted in the first round. 2 of them WERE NOT DRAFTED AT ALL. SO nope I guess you dont.

How does that compare to the last 10 years? You can't just use one year as an example. In the last 10 years, the top receivers have been Andre Johnson, Reggie Wayne, Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Chad Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Anquan Boldin,and Marvin Harrison. I may be missing a few names, but the majority of the top receivers in the game are drafted in the 1st round.

Originally posted by unst4bl3:
We need to fix our secondary, and GUT our WR core. We need real WR's on the field, hell, we need to draft a real TE also.

A TE who doesn't aligator arm, or try to juke like he is barry sanders, when he should be running over people like he is jerome bettis.

Soo you're suggesting that we should rip the TE from in front of VD's name and slap a WR on it and make him the #2 or reciever and then draft a TE that's 6'6 or 6'8 like Jimmy Graham of the Saints and Rob Gronkowski of the Patriots? Vernon Davis is 6'3 and moves great for 250, so why not just make him a reciever? good point unst4bl3.

Originally posted by LBSI9ers:

OTC, you really can't make that statement about Rivers. NOBODY even the great Manning can survive at the pro level with the players Rivers had. He was playing with 3rd string players. I never said that a great QB fixes everything with poor O-line play. Nor did I suggest that great QBs fix the economy, move the earth, and cure cancer. I said a great QB can cover up flaws in the line and make them better. I think a better example of great O-line play and the QB is in Denver with Tebow. That O-line is underrated. Look at Philly and Pittsburgh. Vick and Ben cover up the talentless O line play. Brees' movement in the pocket yesterday eliminated Allen. Manning clearly covered up the poor O-line. And finally, I am not for any reason saying the QBs in this class are Peyton Manning. Just saying the top 4 QBs this year are franchise quality QBs which in unusual. There is a probability that one maybe available around when we pick. One thing to note, the great head coaches like Walsh and Jimmy Johnson understood that competition at the QB spot is critical to success.

That's my point. When your line is an overwhelming failure, it's hard to succeed no matter who you are.

But at the same time, I can totally agree that either elite QBs or extremely athletically gifted ones can help somewhat make-up for or make-less-noticeable the bad line play because of the numbers they put up or other things they can do.

I think Alex has great escapability, but he's obviously not without fault. I think he can and will still get better in a couple areas. Right now, he just doesn't have the legs of Vick, or the legs/strength of Tebow or Big Ben, or the HOF Eliteness of Drew Brees who is going to break Marino's record. He's definitely not THAT good, but I think he is very good at a number of things and still could improve to a point where we've got a "Franchise level" QB.

At the same time though, by the time Alex makes those improvements, if Colin Kaepernick has already begin to adjust, Smith will have CK breathing down his neck, because CK possess two physical qualities Smith does not have: Big-time NFL arm strength and elite speed and quickness as far as QB's. I loved CK in college, the guy can accelerate like no other and does well to keep his eyes downfield on the move like Alex does.

Smith is good now, but he's going to have to improve to keep his job. Unless he gets so good to the point when they'd still sit CK, then.. he may find himself behind CK when Kaepernick FULLY adjusts to the NFL game.

Originally posted by PTulini:

Originally posted by LBSI9ers:
Great QBs make the O line better. Manning, Rodgers, Brady, and Brees all get the ball out before defenses get to the QBs. Can't win SBs with averages QB play. Yes Baltimore did it, but pretty much everyne else had star QBs.

True, but no QB can win with a bad O-line. The O-line gives them the opportunity to make the plays. They go hand in hand.

Oh, and I do believe that Colin Kaepernick is the future.

See AZ before and after Warner, ditto Indy and Manning. A good QB can hide a bad line.

Originally posted by LBSI9ers:
Great QBs make the O line better. Manning, Rodgers, Brady, and Brees all get the ball out before defenses get to the QBs. Can't win SBs with averages QB play. Yes Baltimore did it, but pretty much everyne else had star QBs.

How many superbowls has manning won, thats right one, it takes a whole team to win a game. I'd rather have an elite Cb, to add to this defense. Also, improving the wr core crabtree is a great possesion, and with getting some chemistry with alex this season it's a start, kyle williams looks good suprise with his quickness. Although braylon and ginn have dissappointed me both have elite talent, but have not preformed ginn can't track the ball, and braylon looks to be playing hurt. If we can get the wr core up and going, that should make things easier for both davis and walker.

Originally posted by OnTheClock:
Not necessarily true.

See: Brady to Cassel in NE. Cassel still did well. Cassel is not great.

See: Schaub to T.J. Yates. Yates is not great.

See: Philip Rivers -- look what happened when he lost all his linemen.


OL is extremely important. Like someone said, they go hand in hand. Based on the examples above, you have to believe that the offense is greatly impacted by OL play. If you can't run, you're one dimensional. If you can't pass protect, you're not going to put up many points. If you can't do either, your offense becomes almost non-functional.

New England went from a 18-1 football team to a team that missed the playoffs. 10-6 ain't bad, but it's a drop off none the less. That's the only year they missed the playoffs since what 2002.

It's too early to say very much about Yates and Houston. Yes, they're going to win a garbage division, but that's probally as far as they will go with Yates.

With Rivers there's alot of factors that includes injuries to the line, a sternum injury throwing off his mechanics, Gates's injury, losing Sproles and poor decision making by himself too.

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:



How does that compare to the last 10 years? You can't just use one year as an example. In the last 10 years, the top receivers have been Andre Johnson, Reggie Wayne, Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Chad Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Anquan Boldin,and Marvin Harrison. I may be missing a few names, but the majority of the top receivers in the game are drafted in the 1st round.

You are flat wrong. Half the examples you gave of WR were not drafted in the first round. You forgot Welker, Vincent Jackson, Brandon Marshal, Colston, Steve Smith, Miles Austin, Hines Ward, Wallace, and Greg Jennings. The majorty are selected round 2 or later. In fact besides running back WR is the easiest to find in the later rounds. Out of the top 20 pass receivers this year 14 were drafted after round 1

Originally posted by m_brockalexander:

Originally posted by LBSI9ers:

Originally posted by m_brockalexander:
Your whole premise is faulty. If all the top notch QB's declare this year, none of them will be available in the late 20's when the Niners pick. There are the Colts, the Redskins, the Dolphins, Cleveland (with two picks), and the Seahawks in the top 20 that all have a HUGE need for a franchise QB. End of story.

Yes, we may have to trade to aquire a talent like Landry. But again, the holes we have can be filled in free agency so draft picks this year arn't as super citical as in the past. Many squads like those above will have lots of options to aquire QBs before the draft like Matt Flynn and Peyton Manning. The Colts may or may not draft Luck. So your statment of "end of story" and it's as obvious as the sun is yellow statment is the flawed premise.

Draft picks this year aren't as super critical as in the past? The holes we have can be filled in free agency? Let's go back a few months to the end of the lockout and this is what Baalke was quoted as saying about free agency:

BAALKE: .... It's tough for the fans to look at it and they hear us saying we're going to take a patient approach when we've had as many seasons as we've had and not made the playoffs. That's totally understandable. But we are going to be patient. We have been patient. We do have a plan. We're executing the plan. And I guess the only thing that's going to tell is the test of time, and how successful this plan is will be measured with how successful we become on the field.

The Niners did not make a big splash and the front office in place prefers to build through the draft. The idea of them trading a bunch of draft picks to get a QB this year does not fit with their profile. In regards to all the other teams needing franchise QB's, what is the least expensive way to get what they need? Using a first round pick. With the rookie salary cap, there are no more huge salary cap hits like Sam Bradford's $ 55 million guaranteed to get a QB in the first round. No offense, but as of right now, I don't see the Niners making a play for a QB in next year's draft.

I'm not offended. We are having a constructive discussion. Baalke is saying one thing and doing another. He signed our starting center, CB, WR, safety and kicker. That's greater than 20% of our starters. So, again Wr, gaurd, and CB can all be filled with inexpensive freeagents with less percentage of freeagent signings this year. Not all positions have to be filled by probowl players. Nobody is suggesting a high dollar free agent for these positions. Trading 4 picks to move up makes sense for a guy like Caliborne. CB tend to play for years and are a good investment of multiple draft picks unlike WR: Julio Jones. But a third round pick to jump to 17 is a price to pay for a talented QBs. I'm unsure of Colin. Sorta on the fence. It's highly unusual to have so many starting quality QBs available. Look at the 2013 draft not so many QBs. If we havn't secured that position, it may be 3 years before we get a legit chance and Alex well is Alex.

Originally posted by LBSI9ers:
Great QBs make the O line better. Manning, Rodgers, Brady, and Brees all get the ball out before defenses get to the QBs. Can't win SBs with averages QB play. Yes Baltimore did it, but pretty much everyne else had star QBs.

It's a two way street.

Originally posted by kray28:

Originally posted by LBSI9ers:
Great QBs make the O line better. Manning, Rodgers, Brady, and Brees all get the ball out before defenses get to the QBs. Can't win SBs with averages QB play. Yes Baltimore did it, but pretty much everyne else had star QBs.

It's a two way street.

Not really

If Rogers and Goldson stay then the secondary should be ok. They only look bad compared to the epic rush defense. I don't really get the bashing of the secondary this year. They are 10th in TD's allowed and 3rd in interceptions. When you consider that the defense as a whole has given up 0 rush TD's and are forcing teams to pass a lot late in games then those numbers are pretty damn good. If Rogers leaves then I am all for drafting a CB high but I would rather have Rogers back to be honest.