Von Miller is a must in Rd 1

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by NinerGM:
I really think we trade up to get this player. We have 2 3rd round picks I believe.

Jesus you guys are getting ridiculous now.


Now you want to trade UP to get him?

Pass-rusher is much, much more of a priority than CB. If the 49ers can get their hands one a premium pass-rusher, the entire defense becomes exponentially better. There are no QBs worth a 1st round pick, but there are certainly pass-rushers worth a 1st round pick. 49ers do not need a CB at #7. They just don't and more than likely, he wouldn't beat out the starters anyway.

Great point about CB as the second will be filled with them moving up from the third rounds like Carmichael and what's that kid's name, Burney from NC who went off today. I feel better about our QB position simply because Harbaugh is here and I know he can do wonders with less talent. I see one coming off the board in the third.

Therefore, pass rusher and LDE are very viable options at #7 with Miller, Quinn, Dareus and now Jordan. Anyone of those four guys will improve our pass rush dramatically whether on the line or as a backer. I really like Jordan as he reminds me of Richard Seymour especially the stamina, he just doesn't tire. And he can rush from the LDE providing more penetration than a normal 3-4 end.

Look at Tyson Jackson with KC. Who better, Jordan or Jackson? I digress...

I see we have some pretty solid pieces to use as our LDE in RJF, Soap, and McD so LDE may not be as pressing at #7.

I don't see a pure pass rushing OLB on our squad, no? Von would fit to a tee and Fangio could use him to create mismatches like Capers does with Matthews.

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Originally posted by rayn36:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Originally posted by rayn36:

Originally posted by ninertico:

Originally posted by rayn36:


VM made a lot of plays in college, but I actually agree with Genus regarding his run def - at least from what I saw in college. He gets swallowed up by linemen. He does not have the size and strength to shed blocks. Too often, when he did not beat the blocker initially, he was not effective. He was hit or miss when pass rushing or in the run.

The only redeeming factor is that I think he will have many free lanes in an aggressive blitzing scheme where his instincts can take over. Also, the fat guys in front of him should make his life easier in more frequently keeping blockers off of him.

But that's the thing, EVERYONE knows about his supposedly lack in run D when all the tape does show a kid willing and able to take on a fattie at over 300 plus, a kid who will drop in coverage against a RB or TE and a kid when we ask to pin the ears back, he does.

When the pros acknowledge his ability to be a three-down backer AND be able to bring it when needed, I just don't understand the stuborness to continue to say that this kid is one-dimensional. He's far from that and the fact that he's now also considered a 4-3 SAM as well, only magnifies his VERSATILITY.

at the fact that Von Miller is a one-dimensional player.

Seriously.

You are right! Those people are very stubborn. He is adequate in coverage and is not a one trick pony.

But it is one thing to be willing to take on blockers and another thing to win those battles. He simply does not have the strength right now.

In the top 10, you should expect to get a difference maker with few weaknesses. Now, if we can hide his lack of stoutness vs the run, we may have something going.

Whoever drafts Miller isn't going to start him right away, or play him on every down in his rookie year (if they're smart). They'll ease him in by placing him in situations that play to his strengths (pass rush) while he works on his technique and strength against the run. By year 2, he should be fine...much stronger, much better technique and understanding of his responsibilities and probably even just as dangerous (if not more) off the edge).

So he's definitely a risk in the top 10-15, but because his skill-set is in such high demand, teams will likely take that risk.

Conceptually, that is a brilliant approach. But most teams - esp those picking in the top half of the draft - don't have the luxury to ease a 1st rounder in. Let's just say that we traded down and picked him in the 10-15 range. Wouldn't you be pissed off to see that we are easing in a top 15 pick? If I am New England, obviously I have that luxury and am in a better position to risk taking him very high.

But it is still early. VM has stated that he is disappointed with his weigh in. He exhibits great work ethic and I am beyond curious as to what his combine weight will be. I think he has the frame to add 10 lbs without sacrificing too much speed because of his wiry frame. Perhaps he will silence all critics come combine time. Idk but we will see.

I wouldn't be pissed off to see us easing in a top 15 pick at all. I wish more teams did that. That said, some prospects have the frame, mentality and the skill to jump right in and succeed (see Iupati), whereas others would benefit from watching first, increasing their knowledge, honing their technique and getting stronger (see Anthony Davis). So long as you're not throwing guys in to the fire that aren't ready yet, you should be fine as a franchise.

Btw, I agree with you on Miller. My initial thought was that we as too small/not stout enough to be a top-10 pick. But I can see the Cards pulling the trigger on him at #5, and wouldn't be at all disappointed if we drafted him at #7 either.

To me, he is a Julian Peterson clone. Peterson was amazing in college as a pass-rusher, and good at the pro-level - but best suited for 4-3 alignment, where he can get protection from the DE.

Top 5 pick is way too high for him, especially when you look at the talent of defensive players at the top of this draft. For a 4-3 team, he will make a lot of sense in top 10, but for a 3-4 team - I am not so sure.

I think Miller is a much more skilled pass rusher than Peterson was (who was a great speed rusher, but didn't have a ton of moves at Michigan St.). That said, if he ended up like JP (5X pro-bowler, 3X all-pro, nearly 50 career sacks for a guy who wasn't primarily asked to rush the passer throughout his career), that wouldn't be a terrible thing for a #7 overall pick. Maybe I'm just a little more conservative in my expectations of these guys than most.

No no, that will be great if he turns out like JP in the pros. I wasn't knocking him for being like JP. I was saying JP's numbers came mostly in a 4-3 defense. So, for a 4-3 team - Miller will make a lot of sense in top 10.

Anytime you draft a guy who makes couple of pro-bowls means you have done exceptionally well. But, I'm not sure if Von Miller is right for our system. He may still be a good player for us, but I think he can be great in 4-3 (like JP).

The biggest problem Miller will have in our system is setting the edge in the run game. With his size/frame, I think he could stack on enough weight/strength to mitigate that concern. But what he does best (kill the QB), is what we need the most on defense (IMO).

Yea, he is a damn good pass rusher. But, wouldn't you agree that there are couple other just as good rushers as Von that will be available at 7? And, if we are picking a pass rusher at 7, shouldn't we get one who can play the pass and the run?

Yah, I'm not saying we have to or should grab Miller at #7. I'd be very happy with some of the other guys at #7, or even trading back a bit and grabbing talent a little bit later. I'm just saying, focusing too much on what a guy weighs in late January is a little short-sighted as a draft strategy.

In other words, with his frame (almost 6'3" and not a lot of muscle tone according to observers), it's not really a stretch to imagine him at 245 by the time the combine rolls around in a month, or even showing up to an August training camp at 250 (with more weight/muscle/strength).

By his second season, it's not beyond the realm for him to be a solid 250-255, which is on point with a lot of 3-4 OLBs.

Gotcha! Yea, you're right - it's a little too early to focus on weigh-ins at this point.

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Miller is probably a second round pick.

lol u smoking crack???

Originally posted by jimrat201:

Originally posted by genus49:
Miller is pretty good but I'd be worried about him keeping up that level of play in the NFL with his small frame. Comparing him to Merriman is silly. Shawne was a beast. Miller is like 240 lbs.

I'd much rather draft Robert Quinn.

The guy is supposed to be 6ft 3, your making him sound like a midget. I don't think 6-3 and 240 or so pounds is small for a OLB

Not at all my friend. He would be a perfect fit for us a t OLB. People here tend to forget he will most likely add a few lbs to.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by NinerGM:
I really think we trade up to get this player. We have 2 3rd round picks I believe.

Jesus you guys are getting ridiculous now.


Now you want to trade UP to get him?

Pass-rusher is much, much more of a priority than CB. If the 49ers can get their hands one a premium pass-rusher, the entire defense becomes exponentially better. There are no QBs worth a 1st round pick, but there are certainly pass-rushers worth a 1st round pick. 49ers do not need a CB at #7. They just don't and more than likely, he wouldn't beat out the starters anyway.

Want to point out where I said anything about drafting a corner first?

I have been saying we need a pass rusher early for several seasons now. When 95% of the people last year were driving the CJ Spiller bandwagon I was hoping the niners would look into adding to their pass rush early on.

This year is the same thing. I want us to grab a pass rusher first I just don't think Miller is the best fit for the team, at least not at #7. Certainly not with a trade up!

Quote:
Eric_Branch Eric Branch

#49ers Given the choice: Von Miller or Prince Amukamara? A Big 12 offensive coordinator likes Texas A&M's LB. http://bit.ly/f7zGuG

Originally posted by NinerGM:


Gotcha - my mistake. Do you feel there's anyone at OLB at #7 or worth a trade up? I agreed with you last season about Spiller vs a pass-rush BTW.

I wouldn't trade up for anyone in this draft. Luck was the only guy I felt would've been worth the move up in a big way.

I'd take Quinn at #7 and that's probably it. I think a trade down would be great for us as Aldon Smith, Justin Houston, Von Miller, Ryan Kerrigan and even maybe Akeem Ayers offer more value there and all can be pretty good players.

I like Aldon Smith a lot. Kid has a ton of potential and has prototypical size for the position. He's not a finished product but definitely has the tools to be a stud at the position and just needs to work with the coaches and hit the weights

if von miller is there at #7 and patrick peterson is gone...

this is a no brainer. patrick peterson is the only player i'd take over von miller

willis, bowman and von miller at LB...that is a LOT of speed

we can blitz from a lot of angles and we can really surprise teams

i feel vangio will utilize the LB's even more in the blitz than manusky did

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by NinerGM:


Gotcha - my mistake. Do you feel there's anyone at OLB at #7 or worth a trade up? I agreed with you last season about Spiller vs a pass-rush BTW.

I wouldn't trade up for anyone in this draft. Luck was the only guy I felt would've been worth the move up in a big way.

I'd take Quinn at #7 and that's probably it. I think a trade down would be great for us as Aldon Smith, Justin Houston, Von Miller, Ryan Kerrigan and even maybe Akeem Ayers offer more value there and all can be pretty good players.

I like Aldon Smith a lot. Kid has a ton of potential and has prototypical size for the position. He's not a finished product but definitely has the tools to be a stud at the position and just needs to work with the coaches and hit the weights

I really think VM would start out at ILB in a 3-4. He currently does not have the size to be a 3-4 OLB and would be a project at that position. 7 is simply too high to pick an ILB when you factor in money and importance to a def.

On the other hand, VM has so many intangibles and abilities that you just do not see in too many players. I think he has pushed himself into the top 10 conversation. We still need to take a hard look at him and see if he progresses from now till combine.

Originally posted by iLL49er:
if von miller is there at #7 and patrick peterson is gone...

this is a no brainer. patrick peterson is the only player i'd take over von miller

willis, bowman and von miller at LB...that is a LOT of speed

we can blitz from a lot of angles and we can really surprise teams

i feel vangio will utilize the LB's even more in the blitz than manusky did

Lots of speed sure...but also 3 very similar players. Having all 3 of those guys out there at the same time would make it very difficult to play the run unless the front 3 guys are just dominating like crazy.

The Colts run a system that relies on undersized speed guys and while their pass rush is always near the top of the league due to Freeney and Mathis they constantly struggle stopping teams with balanced attacks.

Originally posted by rayn36:


I really think VM would start out at ILB in a 3-4. He currently does not have the size to be a 3-4 OLB and would be a project at that position. 7 is simply too high to pick an ILB when you factor in money and importance to a def.

On the other hand, VM has so many intangibles and abilities that you just do not see in too many players. I think he has pushed himself into the top 10 conversation. We still need to take a hard look at him and see if he progresses from now till combine.

If we do draft Miller playing him inside would make no sense what so ever. His strength is rushing the passer and that strength is there due to his speed. If you put him inside now he essentially has to speed through a Center/Guard/Tackle combo as opposed to just the tackle or a tight end if they're helping playing OLB.

Can Miller be a good OLB? Yea probably. Would he have to be protected? Yup.

I think the hype is really getting to people and let's face it, that's what happens in the offseason. The hype train starts and guys go up and down the boards.

I can't see him moving up to a top 10 pick but we'll see how it goes. All it takes is for a guy like Aldon Smith to have a superb workout at the combine and now he's the "not getting out of the top 5"

It's what have you done for me lately and a lot of top prospects aren't even at the senior bowl.

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by iLL49er:
if von miller is there at #7 and patrick peterson is gone...

this is a no brainer. patrick peterson is the only player i'd take over von miller

willis, bowman and von miller at LB...that is a LOT of speed

we can blitz from a lot of angles and we can really surprise teams

i feel vangio will utilize the LB's even more in the blitz than manusky did

Lots of speed sure...but also 3 very similar players. Having all 3 of those guys out there at the same time would make it very difficult to play the run unless the front 3 guys are just dominating like crazy.

The Colts run a system that relies on undersized speed guys and while their pass rush is always near the top of the league due to Freeney and Mathis they constantly struggle stopping teams with balanced attacks.

Look at the size of the Steelers and Packers LBs (both inside and out). The only guy with any real size is the 6'2", 265 LaMarr Woodley (which is about Ahmad Brooks' size)....the rest range from 6'0"-6'2" and around 235-255, which is right in the range of Von Miller. In other words, he's an ideal fit for the Steelers and Packers 3-4, which would make him an ideal fit for us as well.

[ Edited by GhostofFredDean74 on Jan 27, 2011 at 17:05:57 ]

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by iLL49er:
if von miller is there at #7 and patrick peterson is gone...

this is a no brainer. patrick peterson is the only player i'd take over von miller

willis, bowman and von miller at LB...that is a LOT of speed

we can blitz from a lot of angles and we can really surprise teams

i feel vangio will utilize the LB's even more in the blitz than manusky did

Lots of speed sure...but also 3 very similar players. Having all 3 of those guys out there at the same time would make it very difficult to play the run unless the front 3 guys are just dominating like crazy.

The Colts run a system that relies on undersized speed guys and while their pass rush is always near the top of the league due to Freeney and Mathis they constantly struggle stopping teams with balanced attacks.

Look at the size of the Steelers and Packers LBs (both inside and out). The only guy with any real size is the 6'2", 265 LaMarr Woodley (which is about Ahmad Brooks' size)....the rest range from 6'0"-6'2" and around 235-255, which is right in the range of Von Miller. In other words, he's an ideal fit for the Steelers and Packers 3-4, which would make him an ideal fit for us as well.

I keep thinking Aaron Curry for some reason, not sure why. Something about him has me unsure.

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Originally posted by genus49:

Originally posted by iLL49er:
if von miller is there at #7 and patrick peterson is gone...

this is a no brainer. patrick peterson is the only player i'd take over von miller

willis, bowman and von miller at LB...that is a LOT of speed

we can blitz from a lot of angles and we can really surprise teams

i feel vangio will utilize the LB's even more in the blitz than manusky did

Lots of speed sure...but also 3 very similar players. Having all 3 of those guys out there at the same time would make it very difficult to play the run unless the front 3 guys are just dominating like crazy.

The Colts run a system that relies on undersized speed guys and while their pass rush is always near the top of the league due to Freeney and Mathis they constantly struggle stopping teams with balanced attacks.

Look at the size of the Steelers and Packers LBs (both inside and out). The only guy with any real size is the 6'2", 265 LaMarr Woodley (which is about Ahmad Brooks' size)....the rest range from 6'0"-6'2" and around 235-255, which is right in the range of Von Miller. In other words, he's an ideal fit for the Steelers and Packers 3-4, which would make him an ideal fit for us as well.

I keep thinking Aaron Curry for some reason, not sure why. Something about him has me unsure.

Curry was much more stiff in the hips, and not even close to being the pass rusher Miller is. Just my take.

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:


Look at the size of the Steelers and Packers LBs (both inside and out). The only guy with any real size is the 6'2", 265 LaMarr Woodley (which is about Ahmad Brooks' size)....the rest range from 6'0"-6'2" and around 235-255, which is right in the range of Von Miller. In other words, he's an ideal fit for the Steelers and Packers 3-4, which would make him an ideal fit for us as well.

The only guy is in Miller's area is Timmons and he plays inside and his strengths are very different. He's a fast guy who is able to make plays because the other guys around him are more dangerous and have to get blocked.

So the smaller guys for the Steelers are inside where they should be. We already have Patrick Willis and Bowman. We need an OLB. People keep throwing out Harrison out there but being 5'11 and 242 lbs is very different than being 6'2+ and 237 lbs.