Alex Smith in Free Agency

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by hofer36:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:


No offense but Pro WRs that are getting paid are not going to lay out across the middle for a QB they don't believe in on a team that has no chance of success. Your mentality is of a guy with nothing to lose, these are pro's with alot to lose. For instance theirs lives.

geez maybe the oline shouldnt block for a rb unless they believe in him---if gore is a little gimpy this year he better watch out
I should apply this concept at work and tell the manager i dont really believe in him so im not going all out--he has got to understand, right?

It is unbelievable to me that people would make the assertion that players should protect themselves unless they believe in their team mates and the game is on the line. I can see not doing stupid things, such as leading with your head, but what else are they not to do?

Should players never go over the middle (most dangerous routes) unless the game is on the line? In all my years of sports I have never heard a coach tell players "don't hurt yourself."

As for not protecting yourself if you "have nothing to lose," tell that to all the great players who risked millions every time they go over the middle and lay out. Many do so in practice not just games. Practice doing things correctly and you will be less likely to be injured. Trying to change your pattern leads to uncertainty and injury.

I never said thats how things should be, I just live in the real world and I am aware how big money changes things. You guys just choose not to accept the reality of big money sports

I disagree. My opinion:

These are professional football players who get paid to sacrifice their bodies. The WR who gives 1000% and lays out for balls is going to get recognition, accolades and a larger contract than the alligator-armed one because he is not afraid to go over the middle and catches everything that comes near him. That is how it works in the "reality of big money sports."

Well, in the reality in big money sports a good percentage the big money athletes don't give %100 effort on %100 of the snaps if they don't feel there team has a shot a the playoffs. Sorry to contrast your boyhood fantasy of these guys all being blue collar workaholics but its just simply not even close to being true.

What was it that you said to me before? "Condescension is a sign of weakness," or words to that effect, I believe.

Good luck to you.

Lol get off my jock

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by hofer36:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:


No offense but Pro WRs that are getting paid are not going to lay out across the middle for a QB they don't believe in on a team that has no chance of success. Your mentality is of a guy with nothing to lose, these are pro's with alot to lose. For instance theirs lives.

geez maybe the oline shouldnt block for a rb unless they believe in him---if gore is a little gimpy this year he better watch out
I should apply this concept at work and tell the manager i dont really believe in him so im not going all out--he has got to understand, right?

It is unbelievable to me that people would make the assertion that players should protect themselves unless they believe in their team mates and the game is on the line. I can see not doing stupid things, such as leading with your head, but what else are they not to do?

Should players never go over the middle (most dangerous routes) unless the game is on the line? In all my years of sports I have never heard a coach tell players "don't hurt yourself."

As for not protecting yourself if you "have nothing to lose," tell that to all the great players who risked millions every time they go over the middle and lay out. Many do so in practice not just games. Practice doing things correctly and you will be less likely to be injured. Trying to change your pattern leads to uncertainty and injury.

I never said thats how things should be, I just live in the real world and I am aware how big money changes things. You guys just choose not to accept the reality of big money sports

I disagree. My opinion:

These are professional football players who get paid to sacrifice their bodies. The WR who gives 1000% and lays out for balls is going to get recognition, accolades and a larger contract than the alligator-armed one because he is not afraid to go over the middle and catches everything that comes near him. That is how it works in the "reality of big money sports."

Well, in the reality in big money sports a good percentage the big money athletes don't give %100 effort on %100 of the snaps if they don't feel there team has a shot a the playoffs. Sorry to contrast your boyhood fantasy of these guys all being blue collar workaholics but its just simply not even close to being true.

What was it that you said to me before? "Condescension is a sign of weakness," or words to that effect, I believe.

Good luck to you.

Let's put him in a room with Ronnie Lott and Justin Smith! The great ones are serious about the art of the game, part of which is effort on every play.

All receivers, even great ones, short arm passes from time to time when they hear footsteps. They're human after all and not robots.

weird my post got cut off

Hmm another one.

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by hofer36:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:


No offense but Pro WRs that are getting paid are not going to lay out across the middle for a QB they don't believe in on a team that has no chance of success. Your mentality is of a guy with nothing to lose, these are pro's with alot to lose. For instance theirs lives.

geez maybe the oline shouldnt block for a rb unless they believe in him---if gore is a little gimpy this year he better watch out
I should apply this concept at work and tell the manager i dont really believe in him so im not going all out--he has got to understand, right?

It is unbelievable to me that people would make the assertion that players should protect themselves unless they believe in their team mates and the game is on the line. I can see not doing stupid things, such as leading with your head, but what else are they not to do?

Should players never go over the middle (most dangerous routes) unless the game is on the line? In all my years of sports I have never heard a coach tell players "don't hurt yourself."

As for not protecting yourself if you "have nothing to lose," tell that to all the great players who risked millions every time they go over the middle and lay out. Many do so in practice not just games. Practice doing things correctly and you will be less likely to be injured. Trying to change your pattern leads to uncertainty and injury.

I never said thats how things should be, I just live in the real world and I am aware how big money changes things. You guys just choose not to accept the reality of big money sports

I disagree. My opinion:

These are professional football players who get paid to sacrifice their bodies. The WR who gives 1000% and lays out for balls is going to get recognition, accolades and a larger contract than the alligator-armed one because he is not afraid to go over the middle and catches everything that comes near him. That is how it works in the "reality of big money sports."

Well, in the reality in big money sports a good percentage the big money athletes don't give %100 effort on %100 of the snaps if they don't feel there team has a shot a the playoffs. Sorry to contrast your boyhood fantasy of these guys all being blue collar workaholics but its just simply not even close to being true.

Jerry Rice, Tom Waddle, Steve Largent, Freddie Solomon, and Dwight Clark disagree with your position.

Originally posted by Otter:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by NineFourNiner:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by hofer36:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:


No offense but Pro WRs that are getting paid are not going to lay out across the middle for a QB they don't believe in on a team that has no chance of success. Your mentality is of a guy with nothing to lose, these are pro's with alot to lose. For instance theirs lives.

geez maybe the oline shouldnt block for a rb unless they believe in him---if gore is a little gimpy this year he better watch out
I should apply this concept at work and tell the manager i dont really believe in him so im not going all out--he has got to understand, right?

It is unbelievable to me that people would make the assertion that players should protect themselves unless they believe in their team mates and the game is on the line. I can see not doing stupid things, such as leading with your head, but what else are they not to do?

Should players never go over the middle (most dangerous routes) unless the game is on the line? In all my years of sports I have never heard a coach tell players "don't hurt yourself."

As for not protecting yourself if you "have nothing to lose," tell that to all the great players who risked millions every time they go over the middle and lay out. Many do so in practice not just games. Practice doing things correctly and you will be less likely to be injured. Trying to change your pattern leads to uncertainty and injury.

I never said thats how things should be, I just live in the real world and I am aware how big money changes things. You guys just choose not to accept the reality of big money sports

I disagree. My opinion:

These are professional football players who get paid to sacrifice their bodies. The WR who gives 1000% and lays out for balls is going to get recognition, accolades and a larger contract than the alligator-armed one because he is not afraid to go over the middle and catches everything that comes near him. That is how it works in the "reality of big money sports."

Well, in the reality in big money sports a good percentage the big money athletes don't give %100 effort on %100 of the snaps if they don't feel there team has a shot a the playoffs. Sorry to contrast your boyhood fantasy of these guys all being blue collar workaholics but its just simply not even close to being true.

Jerry Rice, Tom Waddle, Steve Largent, Freddie Solomon, and Dwight Clark disagree with your position.

The point is not what each individual believes its the percentage of players who don't you have to be realistic for every 1 Freddie Solomon or Steve Largent there are 200 Troy Williamsons

Originally posted by RichmondPete:


The point is not what each individual believes its the percentage of players who don't you have to be realistic for every 1 Freddie Solomon or Steve Largent there are 200 Troy Williamsons

The point is that good NFL receivers go all out on every play. There are some skilled guys who don't but they would not be the majority, which seemed to be your original point. I'm trying to think of a receiver on a playoff team who does not play all out...and can't.

Should Smith do what Manning does? Throw the ball where the WR should be and then stare at him until he gets back to the huddle...yelling in his ear and leaving no doubt (to all onlookers) he ran an incorrect route? Maybe.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:


The point is not what each individual believes its the percentage of players who don't you have to be realistic for every 1 Freddie Solomon or Steve Largent there are 200 Troy Williamsons

The point is that good NFL receivers go all out on every play. There are some skilled guys who don't but they would not be the majority, which seemed to be your original point. I'm trying to think of a receiver on a playoff team who does not play all out...and can't.

Should Smith do what Manning does? Throw the ball where the WR should be and then stare at him until he gets back to the huddle...yelling in his ear and leaving no doubt (to all onlookers) he ran an incorrect route? Maybe.

There are good receivers that don't go all out on every play and that is my point. Not all of these guys are the same as far as heart goes thats reality. Randy Moss is one of the best and he is known to be a player who doesn't play every snap. Lynn Swann was called soft by a lot of people and he is in the hall of fame. I'm sure you can understand my point. My favorite player is Frank Gore that should tell you how I feel about players who go all out.

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:


The point is not what each individual believes its the percentage of players who don't you have to be realistic for every 1 Freddie Solomon or Steve Largent there are 200 Troy Williamsons

The point is that good NFL receivers go all out on every play. There are some skilled guys who don't but they would not be the majority, which seemed to be your original point. I'm trying to think of a receiver on a playoff team who does not play all out...and can't.

Should Smith do what Manning does? Throw the ball where the WR should be and then stare at him until he gets back to the huddle...yelling in his ear and leaving no doubt (to all onlookers) he ran an incorrect route? Maybe.

There are good receivers that don't go all out on every play and that is my point. Not all of these guys are the same as far as heart goes thats reality. Randy Moss is one of the best and he is known to be a player who doesn't play every snap. Lynn Swann was called soft by a lot of people and he is in the hall of fame.

No argument with this other than defining "good." If a QB can't count on the receiver every play it can become a cancerous situation for the team. Talented? Yes. Great? Not without going all out every time.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:


The point is not what each individual believes its the percentage of players who don't you have to be realistic for every 1 Freddie Solomon or Steve Largent there are 200 Troy Williamsons

The point is that good NFL receivers go all out on every play. There are some skilled guys who don't but they would not be the majority, which seemed to be your original point. I'm trying to think of a receiver on a playoff team who does not play all out...and can't.

Should Smith do what Manning does? Throw the ball where the WR should be and then stare at him until he gets back to the huddle...yelling in his ear and leaving no doubt (to all onlookers) he ran an incorrect route? Maybe.

There are good receivers that don't go all out on every play and that is my point. Not all of these guys are the same as far as heart goes thats reality. Randy Moss is one of the best and he is known to be a player who doesn't play every snap. Lynn Swann was called soft by a lot of people and he is in the hall of fame.

No argument with this other than defining "good." If a QB can't count on the receiver every play it can become a cancerous situation for the team. Talented? Yes. Great? Not without going all out every time.

Lynn Swann, hall of Fame. Randy Moss, future hall of fame. T.O., future hall of fame. If you go to the hall you were a great player in the eyes of spectators.

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:


The point is not what each individual believes its the percentage of players who don't you have to be realistic for every 1 Freddie Solomon or Steve Largent there are 200 Troy Williamsons

The point is that good NFL receivers go all out on every play. There are some skilled guys who don't but they would not be the majority, which seemed to be your original point. I'm trying to think of a receiver on a playoff team who does not play all out...and can't.

Should Smith do what Manning does? Throw the ball where the WR should be and then stare at him until he gets back to the huddle...yelling in his ear and leaving no doubt (to all onlookers) he ran an incorrect route? Maybe.

There are good receivers that don't go all out on every play and that is my point. Not all of these guys are the same as far as heart goes thats reality. Randy Moss is one of the best and he is known to be a player who doesn't play every snap. Lynn Swann was called soft by a lot of people and he is in the hall of fame.

No argument with this other than defining "good." If a QB can't count on the receiver every play it can become a cancerous situation for the team. Talented? Yes. Great? Not without going all out every time.

Lynn Swann, hall of Fame. Randy Moss, future hall of fame. T.O., future hall of fame. If you go to the hall you were a great player in the eyes of spectators.

Don't recall Swann taking plays off but I would agree with Moss and TO, which is why some don't think they belong in the Hall. The fact that they established records, were on winning teams and were among the most talented WRs in history will put them in the Hall though. Drove coaches and QBs nuts at times by slacking...can't use them as paragons of average NFL dedication. TO was eratic but generally played hard every play, Moss was/is moody in the extreme.

Your original argument, if I understood it, was that it is fine for players to not try for balls when they don't believe the play means much in the context of the game, or if they do not believe in the QB. Moss played with Brady and still took plays off...in playoff games!

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:


The point is not what each individual believes its the percentage of players who don't you have to be realistic for every 1 Freddie Solomon or Steve Largent there are 200 Troy Williamsons

The point is that good NFL receivers go all out on every play. There are some skilled guys who don't but they would not be the majority, which seemed to be your original point. I'm trying to think of a receiver on a playoff team who does not play all out...and can't.

Should Smith do what Manning does? Throw the ball where the WR should be and then stare at him until he gets back to the huddle...yelling in his ear and leaving no doubt (to all onlookers) he ran an incorrect route? Maybe.

There are good receivers that don't go all out on every play and that is my point. Not all of these guys are the same as far as heart goes thats reality. Randy Moss is one of the best and he is known to be a player who doesn't play every snap. Lynn Swann was called soft by a lot of people and he is in the hall of fame.

No argument with this other than defining "good." If a QB can't count on the receiver every play it can become a cancerous situation for the team. Talented? Yes. Great? Not without going all out every time.

Lynn Swann, hall of Fame. Randy Moss, future hall of fame. T.O., future hall of fame. If you go to the hall you were a great player in the eyes of spectators.

Don't recall Swann taking plays off but I would agree with Moss and TO, which is why some don't think they belong in the Hall. The fact that they established records, were on winning teams and were among the most talented WRs in history will put them in the Hall though. Drove coaches and QBs nuts at times by slacking...can't use them as paragons of average NFL dedication. TO was eratic but generally played hard every play, Moss was/is moody in the extreme.

Your original argument, if I understood it, was that it is fine for players to not try for balls when they don't believe the play means much in the context of the game, or if they do not believe in the QB. Moss played with Brady and still took plays off...in playoff games!

Anyone who believes TO and Moss don't belong in the hall are biased because they don't like the guys. T.O was not the reason the eagles lost the superbowl, he was not the reason the niners couldnt get there and was definitely not the reason that the cowboys couldn't ever win a playoff game. I also don't believe Moss was the reason that the 18-0 pats choked the superbowl or the reason the vikings never got there. Wide receivers have one of the most fatiguing position in sports you can't rely on all of them to go %100 every snap for your team to be successful.

I am not saying its fine to take plays off I just accept it as part of professional football. I also have no idea what its like to be a professional athlete on a horrible team so maybe the verbiage I used suggested that I believe had some insight I don't.

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by RichmondPete:


The point is not what each individual believes its the percentage of players who don't you have to be realistic for every 1 Freddie Solomon or Steve Largent there are 200 Troy Williamsons

The point is that good NFL receivers go all out on every play. There are some skilled guys who don't but they would not be the majority, which seemed to be your original point. I'm trying to think of a receiver on a playoff team who does not play all out...and can't.

Should Smith do what Manning does? Throw the ball where the WR should be and then stare at him until he gets back to the huddle...yelling in his ear and leaving no doubt (to all onlookers) he ran an incorrect route? Maybe.

There are good receivers that don't go all out on every play and that is my point. Not all of these guys are the same as far as heart goes thats reality. Randy Moss is one of the best and he is known to be a player who doesn't play every snap. Lynn Swann was called soft by a lot of people and he is in the hall of fame.

No argument with this other than defining "good." If a QB can't count on the receiver every play it can become a cancerous situation for the team. Talented? Yes. Great? Not without going all out every time.

Lynn Swann, hall of Fame. Randy Moss, future hall of fame. T.O., future hall of fame. If you go to the hall you were a great player in the eyes of spectators.

Don't recall Swann taking plays off but I would agree with Moss and TO, which is why some don't think they belong in the Hall. The fact that they established records, were on winning teams and were among the most talented WRs in history will put them in the Hall though. Drove coaches and QBs nuts at times by slacking...can't use them as paragons of average NFL dedication. TO was eratic but generally played hard every play, Moss was/is moody in the extreme.

Your original argument, if I understood it, was that it is fine for players to not try for balls when they don't believe the play means much in the context of the game, or if they do not believe in the QB. Moss played with Brady and still took plays off...in playoff games!

Anyone who believes TO and Moss don't belong in the hall are biased because they don't like the guys. T.O was not the reason the eagles lost the superbowl, he was not the reason the niners couldnt get there and was definitely not the reason that the cowboys couldn't ever win a playoff game. I also don't believe Moss was the reason that the 18-0 pats choked the superbowl or the reason the vikings never got there. Wide receivers have one of the most fatiguing position in sports you can't rely on all of them to go %100 every snap for your team to be successful.

I am not saying its fine to take plays off I just accept it as part of professional football. I also have no idea what its like to be a professional athlete on a horrible team so maybe the verbiage I used suggested that I believe had some insight I don't.

Very hard to see the guy who has led the league in dropped passes multiple times getting into the HOF on the first ballot, or even the second.

Moss will also carry serious baggage.

Back to the topic, the fitness level of pro WRs is phenomenal. They DO go flat out, or at least 90%, on every play. That is what they train for. The ego of all the good WRs, as well as CBs, demands that they believe they can wear down their opponent, even if it takes all day. The competitive juices start to flow and the player just goes. It is their nature. The ones that do not have that nature do not last very long in the league.