Which current 49ers fit in a 4-3 defense, which don't, and what will it look like

Originally posted by blm7754:
Armistead is getting a bad rap. He played injured this year and was very inconsistent.... possibly as a result. At times he flashed dominance. But his ability to shed blockers and make lateral movements was weak. That makes sense given a shoulder injury.

I think Armistead will be fine as a strong side DE in base and a DT in passing downs.

He's playing up to his predraft reports. You should look them up....lazy player, unproductive and problematic against the run. This is his resume at Oregon not here with a bum shoulder.

He's the worst run defender of any of our Dlinemen and that's not because he was hurt. Two years in the league and he hasn't really developed.

Originally posted by Lobo49er:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Aaron is saying:

LDE: Michael Bennett vs. DeForest Bucnkner; Quinton Dial
LDT (1T): Ahtyba Trubin vs. Quinton Dial; but ideally, Dontari Poe/Brandon Williams
RDT (3T): Jarran Reed vs. Arik Armstead; Glenn Dorsey
RDE (LEO): Cliff Avril vs. Aaron Lynch/Ahmad Brooks; Ronald Blair/Tank Carradine but ideally Melvin Ingram/Myles Garrett
LOLB (SAM): Michael Morgan vs. Eli Harold; Ahmad Brooks
MLB (MIKE): Bobby Wagner vs. Navarro Bowman
WLB (WILL): KJ Wright vs. Ray-Ray Armstrong; Gerald Hodges
LCB: Richard Sherman vs. Rashard Robinson
RCB: DeShawn Shead vs. Tramaine Brock
SLOT/CB: Jeremy Lane vs. Will Redmond
FS: Earl Thomas vs. Jimmie Ward
SS: Kam Chancellor vs. Jaquiski Tartt

First: To those of you who keep complaining that we don't have the guys to run a 4-3: You're wrong. The 4-3 you are thinking about is not the 4-3 that is planned on being run here. The 4-3 we will be trying to run can utilize players who are suited for either traditional scheme. Seattle runs this D. When Seattle was crushing people against the Run, they had a guy weighing 320 pounds at Defensive End.

Second, There are two Giant Black Holes on this List. These are positions that we need to fill (and we would have to fill them regardless of scheme).

DT (1T) (Think Nose Tackle): We have Nobody on the roster who can do this. - Relatively easy to solve. Run stuffing Fat Guys aren't that hard to find. Really good ones cost a lot of money. We need to either sign a FA NT (e.g. Williams/Poe, $$$) or draft one (e.g. Brantley, Qualls, etc.).
My hope: We get two NTs - There will be plenty of game circumstances when we'll wish we had two of them. We sign a Fat Guy and draft one in rounds 4 or 5 (There should be some good run stuffing Fat NTs there).

Leo (Think Charles Haley): We have Nobody on the roster who does this consistently. - We are not the only team in the NFL who is complaining about their pass rush (or rather, lack of it). This is not that easy to find. However, and very fortunately, we have a guy available in FA who does this consistently, and does it well - Melvin Ingram. Draft-wise, really good pass-rushers are usually found in the first round. If Garret slides to us, we grab him. If he doesn't, we're probably looking at drafting for this position later. The draft is deep with "Edge" players, but again, less likely to make a consistently disruptive presence. My hope: We sign Ingram and draft one - ideally Garrett, but we can also find one in rounds 2-3.

There's a third weak spot I'd like to touch on as well, and that's at LB. We did not have enough athleticism at LB last year (duh).
WLB (WILL): Ray-Ray Armstrong - He is no longer a Raider for a reason; he struggled as a 4-3 LB. Now, he is, in theory, perfectly suited to play this role, but I really worry that he's our guy. A relatively cheap option is to sign a LB to play the MIKE and move Bowman to the WILL. Brown (Buf), or Hightower (NE), would each cost ~4 mill a yr.

Absolutely great post and you nailed it. I love the point about athleticism needed from the LB crew. PFF noted that Gerald Hodges came on strong and graded out as their 4th overall best LB in FA (82.4 grade; highest was Hightower at 85.1). Typically I don't subscribe to PFF grades much but the LB position for how they grade, is probably the easiest to evaluate...LOL. But 2 spots behind him was Ray-Ray (80.4)...but take THAT with a massive grain of salt b/c he only had 69 snaps before going on I.R. BUT, I actually think both might now fit this scheme better and both have grown...in fact, Ray-Ray was one of the best players coming into the season and was making plays. So perhaps, both players have come into their own and are now in more ideal roles? And then there is Bowman. The man in the middle. Can he still do it...cover more ground now without a partner-in-crime right next to him? I'm wondering if he'd be more ideal as the SAM now?

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Lobo49er:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Aaron is saying:

LDE: Michael Bennett vs. DeForest Bucnkner; Quinton Dial
LDT (1T): Ahtyba Trubin vs. Quinton Dial; but ideally, Dontari Poe/Brandon Williams
RDT (3T): Jarran Reed vs. Arik Armstead; Glenn Dorsey
RDE (LEO): Cliff Avril vs. Aaron Lynch/Ahmad Brooks; Ronald Blair/Tank Carradine but ideally Melvin Ingram/Myles Garrett
LOLB (SAM): Michael Morgan vs. Eli Harold; Ahmad Brooks
MLB (MIKE): Bobby Wagner vs. Navarro Bowman
WLB (WILL): KJ Wright vs. Ray-Ray Armstrong; Gerald Hodges
LCB: Richard Sherman vs. Rashard Robinson
RCB: DeShawn Shead vs. Tramaine Brock
SLOT/CB: Jeremy Lane vs. Will Redmond
FS: Earl Thomas vs. Jimmie Ward
SS: Kam Chancellor vs. Jaquiski Tartt

First: To those of you who keep complaining that we don't have the guys to run a 4-3: You're wrong. The 4-3 you are thinking about is not the 4-3 that is planned on being run here. The 4-3 we will be trying to run can utilize players who are suited for either traditional scheme. Seattle runs this D. When Seattle was crushing people against the Run, they had a guy weighing 320 pounds at Defensive End.

Second, There are two Giant Black Holes on this List. These are positions that we need to fill (and we would have to fill them regardless of scheme).

DT (1T) (Think Nose Tackle): We have Nobody on the roster who can do this. - Relatively easy to solve. Run stuffing Fat Guys aren't that hard to find. Really good ones cost a lot of money. We need to either sign a FA NT (e.g. Williams/Poe, $$$) or draft one (e.g. Brantley, Qualls, etc.).
My hope: We get two NTs - There will be plenty of game circumstances when we'll wish we had two of them. We sign a Fat Guy and draft one in rounds 4 or 5 (There should be some good run stuffing Fat NTs there).

Leo (Think Charles Haley): We have Nobody on the roster who does this consistently. - We are not the only team in the NFL who is complaining about their pass rush (or rather, lack of it). This is not that easy to find. However, and very fortunately, we have a guy available in FA who does this consistently, and does it well - Melvin Ingram. Draft-wise, really good pass-rushers are usually found in the first round. If Garret slides to us, we grab him. If he doesn't, we're probably looking at drafting for this position later. The draft is deep with "Edge" players, but again, less likely to make a consistently disruptive presence. My hope: We sign Ingram and draft one - ideally Garrett, but we can also find one in rounds 2-3.

There's a third weak spot I'd like to touch on as well, and that's at LB. We did not have enough athleticism at LB last year (duh).
WLB (WILL): Ray-Ray Armstrong - He is no longer a Raider for a reason; he struggled as a 4-3 LB. Now, he is, in theory, perfectly suited to play this role, but I really worry that he's our guy. A relatively cheap option is to sign a LB to play the MIKE and move Bowman to the WILL. Brown (Buf), or Hightower (NE), would each cost ~4 mill a yr.

Absolutely great post and you nailed it. I love the point about athleticism needed from the LB crew. PFF noted that Gerald Hodges came on strong and graded out as their 4th overall best LB in FA (82.4 grade; highest was Hightower at 85.1). Typically I don't subscribe to PFF grades much but the LB position for how they grade, is probably the easiest to evaluate...LOL. But 2 spots behind him was Ray-Ray (80.4)...but take THAT with a massive grain of salt b/c he only had 69 snaps before going on I.R. BUT, I actually think both might now fit this scheme better and both have grown...in fact, Ray-Ray was one of the best players coming into the season and was making plays. So perhaps, both players have come into their own and are now in more ideal roles? And then there is Bowman. The man in the middle. Can he still do it...cover more ground now without a partner-in-crime right next to him? I'm wondering if he'd be more ideal as the SAM now?

Nice stats NC - didn't realize Hodges graded so well. As for Bowman, well....

SAM

The Sam linebacker has to be a good containment player. He has to be big and strong enough to play on the edge of the tight end. He has to be able to run in pass coverage also.

I read this as "3-4 OLB". This doesn't seem to be a great fit for Bow. He can do it though (I mean, the guy can do anything, really), but this requires a lot of setting the edge and stuff, and I'd really like to keep Bow flying around.

MIKE

The Mike linebacker is a traditional middle linebacker. He is instinctive and makes a lot of calls for the defense. He may be the guy with the most experience or the best feel for the game.

This definitely describes Bowman's abilities. If we don't get a new MIKE, I see Bowman as terrific here (when healthy, which leads me to...)

WILL

The Will linebacker can be a smaller player. He is generally protected in the defensive schemes and will not see as many blocks. All you want him to do most plays is flow and chase the football. We want our fastest linebacker at this position.

This definitely describes Bowman's abilities also. And I bolded the most important word in there, for me. Protected. This would be my dream place for Bowman, because he's most likely to make it through a season and he would not see as many blocks. This is the reason I personally want to move him out of the MIKE is to require less contact out of him.

Originally posted by Lobo49er:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Aaron is saying:

LDE: Michael Bennett vs. DeForest Bucnkner; Quinton Dial
LDT (1T): Ahtyba Trubin vs. Quinton Dial; but ideally, Dontari Poe/Brandon Williams
RDT (3T): Jarran Reed vs. Arik Armstead; Glenn Dorsey
RDE (LEO): Cliff Avril vs. Aaron Lynch/Ahmad Brooks; Ronald Blair/Tank Carradine but ideally Melvin Ingram/Myles Garrett
LOLB (SAM): Michael Morgan vs. Eli Harold; Ahmad Brooks
MLB (MIKE): Bobby Wagner vs. Navarro Bowman
WLB (WILL): KJ Wright vs. Ray-Ray Armstrong; Gerald Hodges
LCB: Richard Sherman vs. Rashard Robinson
RCB: DeShawn Shead vs. Tramaine Brock
SLOT/CB: Jeremy Lane vs. Will Redmond
FS: Earl Thomas vs. Jimmie Ward
SS: Kam Chancellor vs. Jaquiski Tartt

First: To those of you who keep complaining that we don't have the guys to run a 4-3: You're wrong. The 4-3 you are thinking about is not the 4-3 that is planned on being run here. The 4-3 we will be trying to run can utilize players who are suited for either traditional scheme. Seattle runs this D. When Seattle was crushing people against the Run, they had a guy weighing 320 pounds at Defensive End.

Second, There are two Giant Black Holes on this List. These are positions that we need to fill (and we would have to fill them regardless of scheme).

DT (1T) (Think Nose Tackle): We have Nobody on the roster who can do this. - Relatively easy to solve. Run stuffing Fat Guys aren't that hard to find. Really good ones cost a lot of money. We need to either sign a FA NT (e.g. Williams/Poe, $$$) or draft one (e.g. Brantley, Qualls, etc.).
My hope: We get two NTs - There will be plenty of game circumstances when we'll wish we had two of them. We sign a Fat Guy and draft one in rounds 4 or 5 (There should be some good run stuffing Fat NTs there).

Leo (Think Charles Haley): We have Nobody on the roster who does this consistently. - We are not the only team in the NFL who is complaining about their pass rush (or rather, lack of it). This is not that easy to find. However, and very fortunately, we have a guy available in FA who does this consistently, and does it well - Melvin Ingram. Draft-wise, really good pass-rushers are usually found in the first round. If Garret slides to us, we grab him. If he doesn't, we're probably looking at drafting for this position later. The draft is deep with "Edge" players, but again, less likely to make a consistently disruptive presence. My hope: We sign Ingram and draft one - ideally Garrett, but we can also find one in rounds 2-3.

There's a third weak spot I'd like to touch on as well, and that's at LB. We did not have enough athleticism at LB last year (duh).
WLB (WILL): Ray-Ray Armstrong - He is no longer a Raider for a reason; he struggled as a 4-3 LB. Now, he is, in theory, perfectly suited to play this role, but I really worry that he's our guy. A relatively cheap option is to sign a LB to play the MIKE and move Bowman to the WILL. Brown (Buf), or Hightower (NE), would each cost ~4 mill a yr.

They'd cost more than 4 mill but I like where your head is at. Why can't Bow move to WILL if they think R2 can't get it done, and have R2 play MLB?

Originally posted by Lobo49er:
Nice stats NC - didn't realize Hodges graded so well. As for Bowman, well....

SAM

The Sam linebacker has to be a good containment player. He has to be big and strong enough to play on the edge of the tight end. He has to be able to run in pass coverage also.

I read this as "3-4 OLB". This doesn't seem to be a great fit for Bow. He can do it though (I mean, the guy can do anything, really), but this requires a lot of setting the edge and stuff, and I'd really like to keep Bow flying around.

MIKE

The Mike linebacker is a traditional middle linebacker. He is instinctive and makes a lot of calls for the defense. He may be the guy with the most experience or the best feel for the game.

This definitely describes Bowman's abilities. If we don't get a new MIKE, I see Bowman as terrific here (when healthy, which leads me to...)

WILL

The Will linebacker can be a smaller player. He is generally protected in the defensive schemes and will not see as many blocks. All you want him to do most plays is flow and chase the football. We want our fastest linebacker at this position.

This definitely describes Bowman's abilities also. And I bolded the most important word in there, for me. Protected. This would be my dream place for Bowman, because he's most likely to make it through a season and he would not see as many blocks. This is the reason I personally want to move him out of the MIKE is to require less contact out of him.

Well done! Thanks for that!

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Lobo49er:

Nice stats NC - didn't realize Hodges graded so well. As for Bowman, well....

SAM

The Sam linebacker has to be a good containment player. He has to be big and strong enough to play on the edge of the tight end. He has to be able to run in pass coverage also.

I read this as "3-4 OLB". This doesn't seem to be a great fit for Bow. He can do it though (I mean, the guy can do anything, really), but this requires a lot of setting the edge and stuff, and I'd really like to keep Bow flying around.

MIKE

The Mike linebacker is a traditional middle linebacker. He is instinctive and makes a lot of calls for the defense. He may be the guy with the most experience or the best feel for the game.

This definitely describes Bowman's abilities. If we don't get a new MIKE, I see Bowman as terrific here (when healthy, which leads me to...)

WILL

The Will linebacker can be a smaller player. He is generally protected in the defensive schemes and will not see as many blocks. All you want him to do most plays is flow and chase the football. We want our fastest linebacker at this position.

This definitely describes Bowman's abilities also. And I bolded the most important word in there, for me. Protected. This would be my dream place for Bowman, because he's most likely to make it through a season and he would not see as many blocks. This is the reason I personally want to move him out of the MIKE is to require less contact out of him.

Well done! Thanks for that!

Shelton Quarles played MLB and was 6'1 225, Brooks was 6'0 235, and their biggest LB was Al' Singleton at 6'2 250 on Buccs 2002 depth chart.

I would be cool if we went with Bow&R2 at two of the LB spots, and have Brooks/Harold fight it out at SAM with a FA/Hodges's/Rookie in the mix.

Originally posted by SmokeCrabtrees:
They'd cost more than 4 mill but I like where your head is at. Why can't Bow move to WILL if they think R2 can't get it done, and have R2 play MLB?

I'm just not sold on Ray-Ray. He played well last year though, and hopefully continues to grow.

Originally posted by Lobo49er:

Originally posted by SmokeCrabtrees:
They'd cost more than 4 mill but I like where your head is at. Why can't Bow move to WILL if they think R2 can't get it done, and have R2 play MLB?

I'm just not sold on Ray-Ray. He played well last year though, and hopefully continues to grow.

He needs to add more muscle or dude will injured again.

The strong side DE will usually shift from outside the offensive tackle (5T) to either a head up alignment (four-technique or 4T) or an inside shade of the same offensive tackle (4i, where "i" means inside).

http://www.49erswebzone.com/commentary/1657-long-look-what-expect-under-49ers-fit-scheme/

Didn't Baalke described AA as a prototypical 4tech?

Chandler Jones would look very nice at defensive end! I think it's a possibility, but I'm sure Arizona is working on an extension. He's probably their top priority. I would love to see Melvin Ingram in red and gold. He'd be a very good addition! He basically doubled Ahmad Brooks in QB pressures last season.

The 3T can also be a two-gapper, but the 4-3 under is at its most dangerous when this player is an attacking one-gap penetrator. Like a 3T in a more traditional 4-3, this player could be the most freakish athlete on the defensive line, combining size and strength with a quick get off that frustrates interior lineman and wrecks blocking schemes. This player should stay on the field as an interior rusher in sub packages

Buckner?

The free safety has to cover ground. LOTS of ground. Foot speed and lightning-quick read and react instincts allow this man to protect the aggressive CB play on the edges, while providing deep security against post and seam routes.

Ward?

The strong safety is a thinned out LB who drinks nitrous oxide by the quart. While this player must also cover ground, he is doing so to deliver a message of danger and physicality. This is a rocked-up version of the typical box safety.

Tarrt? Reid?

Originally posted by Ryanoceros:

Chandler Jones would look very nice at defensive end! I think it's a possibility, but I'm sure Arizona is working on an extension. He's probably their top priority. I would love to see Melvin Ingram in red and gold. He'd be a very good addition! He basically doubled Ahmad Brooks in QB pressures last season.

Been a report he'll be tagged if no deal is reached.

Originally posted by SmokeCrabtrees:

Originally posted by Ryanoceros:
Chandler Jones would look very nice at defensive end! I think it's a possibility, but I'm sure Arizona is working on an extension. He's probably their top priority. I would love to see Melvin Ingram in red and gold. He'd be a very good addition! He basically doubled Ahmad Brooks in QB pressures last season.

Been a report he'll be tagged if no deal is reached.

That is probably the most likely scenario, which is why I'd go all in on Ingram. Perfect fit here.

Originally posted by Lobo49er:

Originally posted by SmokeCrabtrees:

They'd cost more than 4 mill but I like where your head is at. Why can't Bow move to WILL if they think R2 can't get it done, and have R2 play MLB?

I'm just not sold on Ray-Ray. He played well last year though, and hopefully continues to grow.

I'm not either...not yet. Same for him as most of the team. If you can't get healthy and can't stay on the field, you're done/suspect.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Niner4ever:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by bzborow1:
Well I hope he's right about Buckner and Armstead because this team will REALLY need them to take the next step. I also agree with the author's position that the 49ers biggest need on defense in FA will be the 1T tackle. If they were to land a good quality guy I believe it's going to make Buckner and, in particular, Armstead look that much better.

OMG yes...whether we stayed in the 3-4 or 4-3, we BADLY need a real NT. I'm all in on NT/DT/1T Brandon Williams or Dontari Poe. It would cost $8-9.2M but it would be worth every penny (like Damon Harrison last year). Then you just need your dominant LEO/pass rusher...Garrett/Ingram. The positive rippled effect from these two transactions would be enormous. Suddenly everyone next to them and behind them look soooo much better.

Right on!

Totally agree with this...I believe this should be the primary concern as far as free agency is concerned for the team this offseason.

Here's what I would do...Post #59

http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/187944-2017-team-information-needs/page4/

Very nice!

"Notes: In the draft, since Garrett is gone and ShanaLynch aren't sold on Trubisky, we go with a minor trade-back with the Jets and stay inside the top 6 and pick up an extra 2nd this year (40th), next year's 2nd and more (1,000 points). I cover the top 5 picks. In free agency, since we won't be paying for a FQB this year, ShanaLynch make a couple larger splashes in free agency (Bouye/Britt/Williams/Hawley) and add a number of second-tier free agent starters and resign several of our own who fit the Seattle defense and WCO well. 7 of the 18 are resigns. 4 are larger (over $6M) contracts (Bouye/Britt/Williams/Hawley) but nothing remotely back-breaking. The other 7 signings are upper second (starters) or third tier (depth) contracts"

Williams DT and Ingram DE and we couldn't ask for more out of free agency...Total success!