How will defenses gameplan against Troy Smith?

Originally posted by Bluefalcon61:

Originally posted by Baldie:
Everybody is going to focus on Gore, thats a given thats we are a running first team. Let the Bucs plan for that. They went deep early and were successful. No one expects that from the niners. I think we should pass early to open up the running lanes for Gore. Troy has speed so he can be rolled out to see the field better. They can also throw screens in the short game.

Ummm...everything you said makes sense, however our offense already had that gameplan in the last game and as such, the Bucs will be preparing to counter them (early downfield passes, Troy Smith roll-outs) too. We may well come up with the same basic gameplan again for next week's game but I hope its something that is modified to be one step ahead of the Buc's D.

I don't think they heavily play against the run either way. Their run Defense is horrible but their pass defense is in the top 10. To add, they haven't really lost games due to the run defense.

They will force us to run the ball and they will stay patient waiting for the key passes as we all know, running doesn't score points. It gets you in a lot of 3rd and shorts or 3rd and manageable but it doesn't move the chains. Unless we start gashing them for 6 per carry getting first downs every 2 carries, I don't think they will be afraid of the run beating them.

Their Defense is all about minimizing big plays, YAC, and forcing the opponent to over use the run. We can spread their LB's thin but need to be precise if we want to break them for some YAC. Our main plan during this game is to not make that costly mistake or try to force things.

With 5 legit weapons on the field (Crabs, Morgan, Vernon, Walker, Gore) we can force their zone to get spread out.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Bluefalcon61:

Originally posted by Baldie:
Everybody is going to focus on Gore, thats a given thats we are a running first team. Let the Bucs plan for that. They went deep early and were successful. No one expects that from the niners. I think we should pass early to open up the running lanes for Gore. Troy has speed so he can be rolled out to see the field better. They can also throw screens in the short game.

Ummm...everything you said makes sense, however our offense already had that gameplan in the last game and as such, the Bucs will be preparing to counter them (early downfield passes, Troy Smith roll-outs) too. We may well come up with the same basic gameplan again for next week's game but I hope its something that is modified to be one step ahead of the Buc's D.

I don't think they heavily play against the run either way. Their run Defense is horrible but their pass defense is in the top 10. To add, they haven't really lost games due to the run defense.

They will force us to run the ball and they will stay patient waiting for the key passes as we all know, running doesn't score points. It gets you in a lot of 3rd and shorts or 3rd and manageable but it doesn't move the chains. Unless we start gashing them for 6 per carry getting first downs every 2 carries, I don't think they will be afraid of the run beating them.

Their Defense is all about minimizing big plays, YAC, and forcing the opponent to over use the run. We can spread their LB's thin but need to be precise if we want to break them for some YAC. Our main plan during this game is to not make that costly mistake or try to force things.

With 5 legit weapons on the field (Crabs, Morgan, Vernon, Walker, Gore) we can force their zone to get spread out.

I think Ginn would open up the field more than morgan. Ginn can blow the top off the D just by running a streak and taking a safety with him.

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by Bluefalcon61:

Originally posted by Baldie:
Everybody is going to focus on Gore, thats a given thats we are a running first team. Let the Bucs plan for that. They went deep early and were successful. No one expects that from the niners. I think we should pass early to open up the running lanes for Gore. Troy has speed so he can be rolled out to see the field better. They can also throw screens in the short game.

Ummm...everything you said makes sense, however our offense already had that gameplan in the last game and as such, the Bucs will be preparing to counter them (early downfield passes, Troy Smith roll-outs) too. We may well come up with the same basic gameplan again for next week's game but I hope its something that is modified to be one step ahead of the Buc's D.

We haven't even tapped into our full potential. we need to get Gore and westbrook in the backfield, get Walker/crabtree in motion all kinds of looks...but i like the progress do far

I don't think we really need Westbrook. Who would we take off the field? I would rather have Delanie who is a better downfield receiver that can play semi-full back. I think anywhere we use Westbrook will be obvious and a give away that it's going to him due to the formation and personnel.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:

Originally posted by Bluefalcon61:

Originally posted by Baldie:
Everybody is going to focus on Gore, thats a given thats we are a running first team. Let the Bucs plan for that. They went deep early and were successful. No one expects that from the niners. I think we should pass early to open up the running lanes for Gore. Troy has speed so he can be rolled out to see the field better. They can also throw screens in the short game.

Ummm...everything you said makes sense, however our offense already had that gameplan in the last game and as such, the Bucs will be preparing to counter them (early downfield passes, Troy Smith roll-outs) too. We may well come up with the same basic gameplan again for next week's game but I hope its something that is modified to be one step ahead of the Buc's D.

We haven't even tapped into our full potential. we need to get Gore and westbrook in the backfield, get Walker/crabtree in motion all kinds of looks...but i like the progress do far

I don't think we really need Westbrook. Who would we take off the field? I would rather have Delanie who is a better downfield receiver that can play semi-full back. I think anywhere we use Westbrook will be obvious and a give away that it's going to him due to the formation and personnel.

wheel route Westbrook at FB, Morgan can come out.

But i know that when WB is in it's going to him. But if we can get him more plays then we can get defenses to think

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Bluefalcon61:

Originally posted by Baldie:
Everybody is going to focus on Gore, thats a given thats we are a running first team. Let the Bucs plan for that. They went deep early and were successful. No one expects that from the niners. I think we should pass early to open up the running lanes for Gore. Troy has speed so he can be rolled out to see the field better. They can also throw screens in the short game.

Ummm...everything you said makes sense, however our offense already had that gameplan in the last game and as such, the Bucs will be preparing to counter them (early downfield passes, Troy Smith roll-outs) too. We may well come up with the same basic gameplan again for next week's game but I hope its something that is modified to be one step ahead of the Buc's D.

I don't think they heavily play against the run either way. Their run Defense is horrible but their pass defense is in the top 10. To add, they haven't really lost games due to the run defense.

They will force us to run the ball and they will stay patient waiting for the key passes as we all know, running doesn't score points. It gets you in a lot of 3rd and shorts or 3rd and manageable but it doesn't move the chains. Unless we start gashing them for 6 per carry getting first downs every 2 carries, I don't think they will be afraid of the run beating them.

Their Defense is all about minimizing big plays, YAC, and forcing the opponent to over use the run. We can spread their LB's thin but need to be precise if we want to break them for some YAC. Our main plan during this game is to not make that costly mistake or try to force things.

With 5 legit weapons on the field (Crabs, Morgan, Vernon, Walker, Gore) we can force their zone to get spread out.

Joe, you said the Cover-2 is designed to take away the slant pass. Do you think the Bucs may alter this a bit to force/bait Troy into making slant passes over the middle and count on him screwing it up enough times?

Now everyone knows we have a man at QB, no p***y feet, rollout and throw to the upper deck anymore. He plays to win and if you want to blitz, you better be fast cause he will make them look silly.

I really think we should have at least one designed run for him just to keep them guessing.

Tampa is sweating right now- we are a completely different team

Originally posted by Bluefalcon61:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Bluefalcon61:

Originally posted by Baldie:
Everybody is going to focus on Gore, thats a given thats we are a running first team. Let the Bucs plan for that. They went deep early and were successful. No one expects that from the niners. I think we should pass early to open up the running lanes for Gore. Troy has speed so he can be rolled out to see the field better. They can also throw screens in the short game.

Ummm...everything you said makes sense, however our offense already had that gameplan in the last game and as such, the Bucs will be preparing to counter them (early downfield passes, Troy Smith roll-outs) too. We may well come up with the same basic gameplan again for next week's game but I hope its something that is modified to be one step ahead of the Buc's D.

I don't think they heavily play against the run either way. Their run Defense is horrible but their pass defense is in the top 10. To add, they haven't really lost games due to the run defense.

They will force us to run the ball and they will stay patient waiting for the key passes as we all know, running doesn't score points. It gets you in a lot of 3rd and shorts or 3rd and manageable but it doesn't move the chains. Unless we start gashing them for 6 per carry getting first downs every 2 carries, I don't think they will be afraid of the run beating them.

Their Defense is all about minimizing big plays, YAC, and forcing the opponent to over use the run. We can spread their LB's thin but need to be precise if we want to break them for some YAC. Our main plan during this game is to not make that costly mistake or try to force things.

With 5 legit weapons on the field (Crabs, Morgan, Vernon, Walker, Gore) we can force their zone to get spread out.

Joe, you said the Cover-2 is designed to take away the slant pass. Do you think the Bucs may alter this a bit to force/bait Troy into making slant passes over the middle and count on him screwing it up enough times?

Honestly, if we play it right, they won't be able to use cover 2 for long. It all depends on if Troy can hit the TE in the middle 0-10 yards. They may bait the slant but Troy has been good at ball placement and throwing away from defenders. The CB would jam and stay shallow and the OLB would cover the next level of the slant. I can see them sending the OLB and dropping the DE in that area trying to bait. These are the types of plays Troy could make that mistake in. He needs to stay "Alex Safe" on these plays. Some QB's will slightly delay the throw allowing the WR to clear the second defender but what you mention is a disguise and that's something the 49ers either game plan for or not and make the mistake. Another things is that Troy's throw moves fast and it would be a great catch by the backer if he's getting there in the last second after a disguise.

The Bucs will be patient and they will want us to stay conservative. We need to force the issue and force them out of that 2-deep. Once we do that, we will own them and it will be their great plays, if they make them, that will get them a win.

Originally posted by TheTruth:
Now everyone knows we have a man at QB, no p***y feet, rollout and throw to the upper deck anymore. He plays to win and if you want to blitz, you better be fast cause he will make them look silly.

I really think we should have at least one designed run for him just to keep them guessing.

Tampa is sweating right now- we are a completely different team

The blocking in front of the QB has been so solid (props to Baas) that Troy has had ample room to hitch forward on edge rushes.

Troys ability to find the open spaces within the radius of the pocket, a subtle shift forward/right/or left as it may be, has given him that extra half second. This is what Alex never or rarely did. He would stand statue and let the backs of our Tackles crowd him when he had 3 yards of room in the other direction. A slight shift over would have allowed him an extra half second to second in the pocket.

QB helps the OL a lot if he knows how to move, especially when the Center has the front sealed.

Originally posted by strickac:
He's seems tough to coach against and I'm not just saying that because he's one of our own.

He has no trouble with the short passes.

Many QBs have trouble throwing deep and constantly check down, which allows teams to cheat underneath and focus on the short stuff. Troy seems to prefer the deep pass, so they have to stay honest and play back.

He's mobile, so teams won't be able to drop their LBs back too far; otherwise, he'll be able to take off and pick up some easy yards.

He's good under pressure, but does hang on to the ball longer than he should at times. Teams should, and will, blitz him heavily at times, BUT they do that to everyone. I could see some delayed blitz (stunts) up the gaps working really well, but if he gets outside they're left pretty vulnerable.

I think teams will just keep doing what they have been and that's focus on Gore. I think DCs will be content with stopping the rush and forcing the young QB to beat them. So far, he's been doing it. Hopefully, it'll continue.

On a side note, I love how Johnson is mixing in the bootleg/sweep looks. That's classic Shannahan there and fits perfectly with our personnel.

Yeah try and stop troy smith, great idea because number 21 is the guy who's going to have the ball in the endzone by the end of that play.

Cause turnovers. Force Troy to make a bad pass, or make a play on the ball. Not taking anything away from Troy, but that pass to D. Walker in OT could have been easily picked if only the defender turned around. It was an errant throw. And luckily the DB was watching D. Walker instead of the ball. This also happened in the Broncos game. If Bailey would have played the ball it could have been picked.

Get some pressure on him, in which defense have, and make him throw a pass like that. Play the ball. We have barely beat the Broncos and the Rams, 2 dismal teams. One turnover the game could have been tremendously different. Force him to make a bad decision and that could be the difference.

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by ttime1:

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:
Do what the Eagles did last night to McNabb - bring pressure on the edge which force Smith to stay in the pocket instead of rolling out.

Also, bring a few Double A gap blitzes early in the game and then fake the blitz which opens the outside for the pass rush.

DL keep their hands up. Four passes batted down against the Rams shows Troy is vulnerable to that due to his being short. 49er OL has not shown the ability to cut DL to force them to keep their hands down. This is still a problem that will not get better until the OL play improves.

Had nothing to do late last night and ended up watching the game. I think Troy will struggle against the Bucs. If anyone has a big day, it will be Gore, Vernon, and Ginn.

He only completed 1 or 2 passes inside the numbers/hash marks. All other completions were passes near the side lines. The one he did throw in "the middle of the field" was on a sprint right shift in blocking and he threw it to the left to Crabtree on a 15 yard drag route. He did not throw ANYTHING short over the middle. I think his height plays a huge role here as he hasn't had enough experience to shift into passing lanes and then make the short pass ala Brees.

How does this correlate to him having a tough game against the Bucs? Well, since all of his throws were outside the hash marks, Tampa does play a lot of Tampa 2 which will make it difficult for him to get an open receiver on the sides. However, we have so much talent at the receiving/te/rb positions all around that we can strike any part of the field. The only problem will be if Troy can complete passes in the middle 0-12 yard range.

Yes, I'm a football geek so I thought of some things that we may do to help him out. 12 formation is a killer against cover 2 as it splits the Safeties as Favre did to us in the late 90's with Franks and Chamura.

1) 12 formation and see if they deviate from the cover two with help on Vernon over the top. This will free up Delanie for a lot of 5-7 yard option routes or it will free up the WR on Vernon's side. Alex was never able to take advantage of the single WR while his FS helped on Vernon.

2) 12 formation with Ginn out wide and send him deep with Vernon on the same side freezing the FS. The CB will stay shallow and Ginn can outrun the FS for the deep ball.

3) Run Gore all day!!! Tampa isn't all that great against the run. In fact, they are near last.

4) Rollouts. Since the CB has short outside responsibility, Tampa will not try to seal the edge as hard so we may have some good opportunities with PA rollouts.


Honestly, I think Alex may have more success against this type of defense as he loves the middle of the field. The Cover 2 is all about giving that.

Great analysis Joe. I saw the same thing and wondered why there were no in-routes or posts for huge completions. The only thing I saw that was even close to this was a comeback by Crabtree.

Isn't the Tampa 2 also susceptible to the QB option? What do you think?

The called back TD to VD was over the middle which demonstrates that Troy has the ability to make plays over the entire field (Alex simply could not). His liability of being short would seem to make the most difference on slants which is what the cover-2 was designed to mitigate. I think that the 49ers strengths of running and creative use of TEs fair very well against the cover-2 and the Blacksmith's playmaking ability provides another asset that really can not be coached against.

I don't know it one desperation pass to Davis who made an AMAZING catch is pass-over-the-middle consistency that we need for a short passing game. It was an incredible throw and an incredible catch.

That would have been about a 15 yard completion. I'm talking about the 0-10 yard range where the slants and hot reads to the TE's are at along with the TE options left or right as soon as they hit the LB.

I bet defenses are calling Tonya Harding right now....

"She became notorious after her ex-husband, Jeff Gillooly, conspired with Shawn Eckhardt[2] and Shane Stant to attack Harding's skating competitor Nancy Kerrigan at a practice session, during the 1994 U.S. Figure Skating Championships."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonya_Harding

Originally posted by TheTruth:
Now everyone knows we have a man at QB, no p***y feet, rollout and throw to the upper deck anymore. He plays to win and if you want to blitz, you better be fast cause he will make them look silly.

I really think we should have at least one designed run for him just to keep them guessing.

Tampa is sweating right now- we are a completely different team

QB and the fear factor....

Pretty sure they are going to blitz some, but will probably count on getting to T-Pain with 4 because of our o-line issues. . . . at least to start.

I would think that this would be a great week to get Westbrook in the mix and run some delays/screens/buttonhooks, while we send receivers deep. May be a great opportunity for the 2 back sets, where one goes out for the screen, one stays in and blocks keeping the LBs honest and hitting slants between the LBs and Safeties.

LOL at Tampa sweating comment.

Get real dude. Gore is about the only one that poses a threat on your offense. I would add Crabtree in, but he's got nobody throwing to him.


Flex it.