2013 NBA Finals thread: San Antonio Spurs vs. Miami Heat

Originally posted by Leathaface:
And I'm saying +/- is a completely worthless stat without context. If the Heat are -20 with LBJ in G1 but then win G2 G3 G4 where they're +1 with him in each of these games, they're still -17 when he's on the court overall.

+/- is might be useful when assessing specific lineups in specific situations, not individual players over the course of a series. There are way too many other factors to consider.

Someone posted this earlier:

For the series, the Heat have scored 131.7 points per 100 possessions when James is on the floor without Wade, and just 100.8 when the two have shared the floor, per NBA.com. The Heat are minus-12 for the series, but the James–Mike Miller–Ray Allen super-shooting trio is a crazy plus-50 in just 68 minutes, per NBA.com. The James-Miller-Chalmers trio is plus-43 in just 80 minutes, and the combination of those four players is a stunning plus-49 in just 29 total minutes together, per NBA.com.

And that's why I separated it out into individual games rather than having something like his -32 in Game 3 skewing the numbers. Miami's been outscored with LeBron on the floor in 4 of the 6 games in this series, completely independent of anything that happened in another game. I'm not sure how else I can say it. My point never involved a cumulative +/-, so I'm not sure why you're debating the bolded point.

Not sure what the point of the qualifiers are. Is it Wade that is putting a hex on him, as you might say? Or is it that LeBron is a lot more effective when he's surrounded by spot up shooters and drive & dish bigs? (it's that one) LeBron's the best player in the world and completely capable of dominating in the playoffs, but he needs guys with specific skill sets around him to do that. Miami's front office has made a concerted effort to get exactly these kinds of guys, because they know this too. Mike Miller = spot up shooter. Ray Allen = spot up shooter. Rashard Lewis = spot up shooter. Shane Battier = spot up shooter. Chris Andersen = drive & dish big. It's not a coincidence.

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Or just once. smh

And Penny was good, but c'mon now, lol. I have read the strangest s**t on here over the last 24 hours.

Finals. NBA finals. ECF. Playoffs period. Dude was going to explode and punish you relentlessly. And yes Penny Hardaway. You see nowadays players get little to no college and they get to this league based on measurables and potential. They don't start out with the fundamentals. Jordan and Penny did and they would punish these defenses. I am 2 years older than Kobe and plenty older than lebron so I am in that sweet spot of having seen all these players in their primes and Jordan and Penny were incredible. They would own these defenses. Injury robbed hardaway. You witness these players? Smh

Originally posted by LA9erFan:
And that's why I separated it out into individual games rather than having something like his -32 in Game 3 skewing the numbers. Miami's been outscored with LeBron on the floor in 4 of the 6 games in this series, completely independent of anything that happened in another game. I'm not sure how else I can say it. My point never involved a cumulative +/-, so I'm not sure why you're debating the bolded point.

Not sure what the point of the qualifiers are. Is it Wade that is putting a hex on him, as you might say? Or is it that LeBron is a lot more effective when he's surrounded by spot up shooters and drive & dish bigs? (it's that one) LeBron's the best player in the world and completely capable of dominating in the playoffs, but he needs guys with specific skill sets around him to do that. Miami's front office has made a concerted effort to get exactly these kinds of guys, because they know this too. Mike Miller = spot up shooter. Ray Allen = spot up shooter. Rashard Lewis = spot up shooter. Shane Battier = spot up shooter. Chris Andersen = drive & dish big. It's not a coincidence.

I think the moral of the story is that stats are bull s**t some times

Originally posted by LA9erFan:
And that's why I separated it out into individual games rather than having something like his -32 in Game 3 skewing the numbers. Miami's been outscored with LeBron on the floor in 4 of the 6 games in this series, completely independent of anything that happened in another game. I'm not sure how else I can say it. My point never involved a cumulative +/-, so I'm not sure why you're debating the bolded point.

Not sure what the point of the qualifiers are. Is it Wade that is putting a hex on him, as you might say? Or is it that LeBron is a lot more effective when he's surrounded by spot up shooters and drive & dish bigs? (it's that one) LeBron's the best player in the world and completely capable of dominating in the playoffs, but he needs guys with specific skill sets around him to do that. Miami's front office has made a concerted effort to get exactly these kinds of guys, because they know this too. Mike Miller = spot up shooter. Ray Allen = spot up shooter. Rashard Lewis = spot up shooter. Shane Battier = spot up shooter. Chris Andersen = drive & dish big. It's not a coincidence.

So what is the point of arguing (or even bringing up, for that matter) his individual +/- if you understand that the lineup around him makes a difference? That's exactly what I was saying in my post. Re: the cumulative +/-, my fault, I thought that's what you were using. Still doesn't change the fact that +/- without context (as in the whole lineup, defenses lineup, game situation, etc.) is a worthless statistic.

I don't believe some of you guys saw these players but if you did you would know the difference. Players that knew what to do and when to do it. Technicians even against very physical defenses. Jordan overrated. Ha! I have not seen a better wing player. And Kobe is not it and his best is beyond him. He was great but short of Jordan. Lebron has a chance but I don't see it yet. He still has time and potential but he will be a different guy than MJ. I always hoped he would study Penny's game because I think if he improves his footwork and his handle he could pass shoot post and the handle like Penny. His defense is already elite. DPOY elite

Originally posted by Pillbusta:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Or just once. smh

And Penny was good, but c'mon now, lol. I have read the strangest s**t on here over the last 24 hours.

Finals. NBA finals. ECF. Playoffs period. Dude was going to explode and punish you relentlessly. And yes Penny Hardaway. You see nowadays players get little to no college and they get to this league based on measurables and potential. They don't start out with the fundamentals. Jordan and Penny did and they would punish these defenses. I am 2 years older than Kobe and plenty older than lebron so I am in that sweet spot of having seen all these players in their primes and Jordan and Penny were incredible. They would own these defenses. Injury robbed hardaway. You witness these players? Smh

Hell yes I remember these players, lol. I remember watching Penny at Memphis State, the Lil Penny commercials, the Penny/Shaq/Anderson/Scott/Grant Magic and all that. Even before injuries, Penny was a superb player, but was never in the conversation of the best player in the game, much less in the conversation of iconic players like Jordan, Kobe, & LeBron. It's a completely silly name to bring up in context with those three...and I liked Penny's game quite a bit.

And the point about "fundamentals" is an absurd, when-I-was-your-age platitude. The guys that come into today's game have so much more in the way of fundamentals that it's not even funny. There are so many more player development avenues for young players today than there were then that there's no comparison. And the idea that Penny was some fundamentally sound dude is especially specious. He was a 6'7" guy with ball skills, superb athleticism, and a suspect jumper. The fact that he flamed out of the league after his athleticism diminished is evidence that he wasn't particularly fundamentally sound. In fact, I remember old farts back in the day complaining about him and others lacking the same fundamentals that you're talking about.

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Jordan is over-rated...because ppl think he did things which he never did. Like, giving 50 pts in the finals regularly...or didn't face elimination games like Lebron...etc. Jordan was great...we will see where Kobe and Lebron finish their career.

Jordan faced elimination games?

Forget years before they were championship ready this is Lebron's 6th elimination game over the past 3 years. MJ had 2 in 6 championship seasons. You look at the Spurs and in their 4 championship years they've never been trailing in a series. I would think even the most adamant Lebron supporters would see that this is team that's susceptible to putting themselves in holes.

Originally posted by LA9erFan:
And that's why I separated it out into individual games rather than having something like his -32 in Game 3 skewing the numbers. Miami's been outscored with LeBron on the floor in 4 of the 6 games in this series, completely independent of anything that happened in another game. I'm not sure how else I can say it. My point never involved a cumulative +/-, so I'm not sure why you're debating the bolded point.

Not sure what the point of the qualifiers are. Is it Wade that is putting a hex on him, as you might say? Or is it that LeBron is a lot more effective when he's surrounded by spot up shooters and drive & dish bigs? (it's that one) LeBron's the best player in the world and completely capable of dominating in the playoffs, but he needs guys with specific skill sets around him to do that. Miami's front office has made a concerted effort to get exactly these kinds of guys, because they know this too. Mike Miller = spot up shooter. Ray Allen = spot up shooter. Rashard Lewis = spot up shooter. Shane Battier = spot up shooter. Chris Andersen = drive & dish big. It's not a coincidence.

Wade last year in 3 playoffs series vs. this year in 3 players series:

this year----last year
14 --- 29
15 --- 24
10 --- 5
6 --- 30
18 --- 28
19 --- 41
14 --- 22
18 --- 23
16 --- 18
10 --- 20
10 --- 27
21 --- 17
17 --- 23
10 --- 19
16 --- 24
32 --- 25
25 --- 25
14 --- 20

Wade wasn't 100% last year either, but he's in more pain this year. He has said so many times. It's not that Wade all of a sudden can't play basketball...or magically can't play alongside Lebron. You're over analyzing this way too much.

It's pretty simple. Wade is injured. If this was regular season, he'd be sitting out. He is passing up wide open shots. The easiest tell is, days he's feeling a little better - he contributes on the defensive end too. When he isn't...he isn't active on either end. Lebron can't stop him from stealing, rebounding, or defending well.

Lmao: Dale, jr has sold sponsorship on his car to 3,456 different sponsors.

Originally posted by Leathaface:
So what is the point of arguing (or even bringing up, for that matter) his individual +/- if you understand that the lineup around him makes a difference? That's exactly what I was saying in my post. Re: the cumulative +/-, my fault, I thought that's what you were using. Still doesn't change the fact that +/- without context (as in the whole lineup, defenses lineup, game situation, etc.) is a worthless statistic.

Yes, there's always going to be variance from one lineup to another, which is why I don't think cherry-picking particular lineups that support a more agreeable point is all that convincing. Of course he plays better with some lineups than others. That's true of every player. But overall he's been a net neutral (at best) in this series when he's on the court.

IMO, every single basketball player's job is to contribute to the goal of scoring more points than the opponent. I know that sounds terribly elementary, but that's really all that matters, and there are a multitude of ways of doing this. The PPG, FG%, and all of those numbers that we like to obsess over are pointless. And it would stand to reason that the team that the best player in the world plays for (and you'll get no argument from me on that) should be considerably better with him on the court than they are with him off of it. Miami hasn't been in this series.

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Jordan is over-rated...because ppl think he did things which he never did. Like, giving 50 pts in the finals regularly...or didn't face elimination games like Lebron...etc. Jordan was great...we will see where Kobe and Lebron finish their career.

Jordan faced elimination games?

Forget years before they were championship ready this is Lebron's 6th elimination game over the past 3 years. MJ had 2 in 6 championship seasons. You look at the Spurs and in their 4 championship years they've never been trailing in a series. I would think even the most adamant Lebron supporters would see that this is team that's susceptible to putting themselves in holes.

Why would you eliminate any years? Jordan played in plenty of elimination games and averaged 31+ pts a game. Lebron averaged a little over than Jordan. The fact that Jordan was a scorer first and Lebron is a play-maker first makes that stat even more eye-popping.

Yes, I've no argument that this roster has weaknesses and they put themselves in holes. That has nothing to do with my point. The point is in response to the fact that ppl think Lebron shrinks in big moments. Facts say the complete opposite of that.

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Hell yes I remember these players, lol. I remember watching Penny at Memphis State, the Lil Penny commercials, the Penny/Shaq/Anderson/Scott/Grant Magic and all that. Even before injuries, Penny was a superb player, but was never in the conversation of the best player in the game, much less in the conversation of iconic players like Jordan, Kobe, & LeBron. It's a completely silly name to bring up in context with those three...and I liked Penny's game quite a bit.

And the point about "fundamentals" is an absurd, when-I-was-your-age platitude. The guys that come into today's game have so much more in the way of fundamentals that it's not even funny. There are so many more player development avenues for young players today than there were then that there's no comparison. And the idea that Penny was some fundamentally sound dude is especially specious. He was a 6'7" guy with ball skills, superb athleticism, and a suspect jumper. The fact that he flamed out of the league after his athleticism diminished is evidence that he wasn't particularly fundamentally sound. In fact, I remember old farts back in the day complaining about him and others lacking the same fundamentals that you're talking about.

Put in the tape. Penny was sound. He was on his way to being an icon. He had it all. Fundamental principles smart. He was one of the most coveted guys in the league. He was more popular than shaq in Orlando. As for today? Blake Griffin number 1 overall pick. He has some schooling and a lot of athleticism but too little refinement in his post game. He like a lot of these young athletes that can't shoot a FT needs more work

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:

Jordan is over-rated...because ppl think he did things which he never did. Like, giving 50 pts in the finals regularly...or didn't face elimination games like Lebron...etc. Jordan was great...we will see where Kobe and Lebron finish their career.

Jordan faced elimination games?

Forget years before they were championship ready this is Lebron's 6th elimination game over the past 3 years. MJ had 2 in 6 championship seasons. You look at the Spurs and in their 4 championship years they've never been trailing in a series. I would think even the most adamant Lebron supporters would see that this is team that's susceptible to putting themselves in holes.

Why would you eliminate any years? Jordan played in plenty of elimination games and averaged 31+ pts a game. Lebron averaged a little over than Jordan. The fact that Jordan was a scorer first and Lebron is a play-maker first makes that stat even more eye-popping.

Yes, I've no argument that this roster has weaknesses and they put themselves in holes. That has nothing to do with my point. The point is in response to the fact that ppl think Lebron shrinks in big moments. Facts say the complete opposite of that.

I'm just curious I'd like to know the average % of the total team points scored each for Jordan and Lebron in elimination games.

I feel like that one dude that kept trying to make the Kurt thomas argument and every time he talked about it there was some new ridiculous thing he was excluding, but I really want to know that^

Originally posted by Pillbusta:
Put in the tape. Penny was sound. He was on his way to being an icon. He had it all. Fundamental principles smart. He was one of the most coveted guys in the league. He was more popular than shaq in Orlando. As for today? Blake Griffin number 1 overall pick. He has some schooling and a lot of athleticism but too little refinement in his post game. He like a lot of these young athletes that can't shoot a FT needs more work

Dude, I've seen the tape, watched him at the time, and no...he wasn't a particularly fundamentally sound player, nor was he smart. He had tremendous physical gifts with his size and athleticism. When that went away due to the knee injury, he was soon out of the league. That's the difference between him and say someone like Grant Hill, who experienced FAR more injuries than Penny did, but Grant was smart enough and skilled enough to stay in the league long after his physical gifts left him. Penny was not. Really good player, but completely out of place in a conversation involving MJ, Kobe, & LeBron.

These whippersnappers shoot 75.3% from the FT line these days, which is almost a full 2 percentage points better than the league shot back in Penny's day. You're remembering things how you want to remember them rather than how they actually happened.

Originally posted by marshniners24:
I'm just curious I'd like to know the average % of the total team points scored each for Jordan and Lebron in elimination games.

I feel like that one dude that kept trying to make the Kurt thomas argument and every time he talked about it there was some new ridiculous thing he was excluding, but I really want to know that^

Oh man...I'm too lazy to do that. Plus, I don't think Lebron is better than Jordan...not yet, at least.