2013 San Francisco Giants Thread

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
I'll tell you what's funnier. 27 runs, 21 earned, 30 hits and 10 walks in 16 innings pitched. That's Vogey's line in his last 4 starts.

Btw, no minor league pitcher is facing the likes of Edwin Encarnacion, Jose Bautista, or Melky Cabrera so that's not really relevant if we're talking about bringing someone up (which is what I was doing). Vogey definitely has better stuff than Loux, Petit or anyone else we might consider brining up right now, that we agree on. But Vogey's stuff isn't the problem right now, it's his location...to be more exact, his lack of it. He can't locate anything right now, which means he's pretty useless until he can get that corrected.

My only point was to give him a breather and bring up someone who wouldn't totally embarrass themselves, sort of like what Vogey is doing right now. I agree with you that RV will be fine in the long run; where we disagree is on what to do about it. I just don't think that you keep throwing a guy out there if he's putting up those kinds of numbers. You give him a little break, let him gain a little feel back in his pitches by working on the side and bring him back in a few weeks.

BTW, I don't particularly care for Loux, but he is throwing reasonably well right now as a starter in Fresno (compared to his relief appearances last year).

My point about Loux was that he has only 11 Ks in 30 innings facing minor league hitters. Plus, we have seen his stuff before. He is garbage. No way you sit Vogey for "a few weeks".

I think you have to trust that a good pitcher will turn it around and that May 15th is too early to panic. Look at Jonathon Niese. ERA of 5.93, whip of 1.75 and 50 hits in 31 ips. Yet, he has gone in today in STL against a very good hitting team and given up 1 run (in the 7th now).

I just dont think there are ANY good alternatives. I would give him through the end of this month as a minimum to get it straightened out. At most I would rest him for 1 start assuming he might have a bit of a dead arm.

I think it's funny because if anyone would've asked about Vogey back in 2011 spring training, they would've said the same thing. He's garbage. In fact, he was HOT garbage for a number of years. We all know the story John...he was so bad he had to play in Japan for 3 years, and even when he came back, he was released by two clubs before we signed him to a minor league deal in 2011.

Basically, Vogey WAS Loux prior to 2011. Of course that doesn't mean Loux will turn into the next Ryan Vogelsong; that's not likely to happen. Just pointing out the obvious irony.

And I even think your Niese comparison is off-base. At 26, Niese is almost 10 years younger than Vogey and has nearly 4 years of solid MLB service so of course you're going to handle a guy like that differently. Niese is a young guy and a proven, effective starter with his whole career ahead of him. Add on the fact that Niese was battling a neck injury and it stands to reason that they'd give him a little leeway as he got healthy. Vogey is a soon-to-be 36 year-old former journeyman pitcher who was a literal nobody until very recently. Apples and oranges, IMO.

And though I said we should sit Vogey for two weeks, I meant 2 starts (15 day DL retroactive). My bad. Who they would replace him with is less of a concern to me given (as you correctly pointed out) there are few good options; I only pointed out that among the Fresno starters, Loux was the best of a bad bunch. I have no particular fondness for Loux nor do I see him as an effective MLB pitcher anytime soon...again, sort of like how Vogey was before we signed him 2011.

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
I think it's funny because if anyone would've asked about Vogey back in 2011 spring training, they would've said the same thing. He's garbage. In fact, he was HOT garbage for a number of years. We all know the story John...he was so bad he had to play in Japan for 3 years, and even when he came back, he was released by two clubs before we signed him to a minor league deal in 2011.

Basically, Vogey WAS Loux prior to 2011. Of course that doesn't mean Loux will turn into the next Ryan Vogelsong; that's not likely to happen. Just pointing out the obvious irony.

And I even think your Niese comparison is off-base. At 26, Niese is almost 10 years younger than Vogey and has nearly 4 years of solid MLB service so of course you're going to handle a guy like that differently. Niese is a young guy and a proven, effective starter with his whole career ahead of him. Add on the fact that Niese was battling a neck injury and it stands to reason that they'd give him a little leeway as he got healthy. Apples and oranges.

And though I said we should sit Vogey for two weeks, I meant 2 starts (15 day DL retroactive). My bad. Who they would replace him with is less of a concern to me given (as you correctly pointed out) there are few good options); I only pointed out that among the Fresno starters, Loux was the best of a bad bunch.

Ghost, I dont see Niese and Vogelsong as apples and oranges at all. In fact, I think its a great example of how you dont panic when a starter is struggling this early in the season. Yes Niese is proven. Vogelsong has been more proven over the last 2 years and certainly has pitched in more big games. Now, if he is injured thats a different story. If it is just to sit him for 1 start and have a guy make a spot start I would be fine with that. Anything more at this point I would not agree with.

And not to be argumentative but you did say a few weeks - not two weeks.

Originally posted by Muggins:
Jeremy Affeldt Returned $500,000 The Giants Paid Him By Mistake

amazing story that never gets any pub. When players do something like this, it almost goes un noticed.

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
I think it's funny because if anyone would've asked about Vogey back in 2011 spring training, they would've said the same thing. He's garbage. In fact, he was HOT garbage for a number of years. We all know the story John...he was so bad he had to play in Japan for 3 years, and even when he came back, he was released by two clubs before we signed him to a minor league deal in 2011.

Basically, Vogey WAS Loux prior to 2011. Of course that doesn't mean Loux will turn into the next Ryan Vogelsong; that's not likely to happen. Just pointing out the obvious irony.

And I even think your Niese comparison is off-base. At 26, Niese is almost 10 years younger than Vogey and has nearly 4 years of solid MLB service so of course you're going to handle a guy like that differently. Niese is a young guy and a proven, effective starter with his whole career ahead of him. Add on the fact that Niese was battling a neck injury and it stands to reason that they'd give him a little leeway as he got healthy. Apples and oranges.

And though I said we should sit Vogey for two weeks, I meant 2 starts (15 day DL retroactive). My bad. Who they would replace him with is less of a concern to me given (as you correctly pointed out) there are few good options); I only pointed out that among the Fresno starters, Loux was the best of a bad bunch.

Ghost, I dont see Niese and Vogelsong as apples and oranges at all. In fact, I think its a great example of how you dont panic when a starter is struggling this early in the season. Yes Niese is proven. Vogelsong has been more proven over the last 2 years and certainly has pitched in more big games. Now, if he is injured thats a different story. If it is just to sit him for 1 start and have a guy make a spot start I would be fine with that. Anything more at this point I would not agree with.

And not to be argumentative but you did say a few weeks - not two weeks.

I did originally say "weeks" and I was wrong; I meant to say a few starts (and more specifically, 2). Not sure why I originally wrote weeks when I mean to say 2 starts (which was in my head but didn't come out in my post....brain fart on my part).

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
I think it's funny because if anyone would've asked about Vogey back in 2011 spring training, they would've said the same thing. He's garbage. In fact, he was HOT garbage for a number of years. We all know the story John...he was so bad he had to play in Japan for 3 years, and even when he came back, he was released by two clubs before we signed him to a minor league deal in 2011.

Basically, Vogey WAS Loux prior to 2011. Of course that doesn't mean Loux will turn into the next Ryan Vogelsong; that's not likely to happen. Just pointing out the obvious irony.

And I even think your Niese comparison is off-base. At 26, Niese is almost 10 years younger than Vogey and has nearly 4 years of solid MLB service so of course you're going to handle a guy like that differently. Niese is a young guy and a proven, effective starter with his whole career ahead of him. Add on the fact that Niese was battling a neck injury and it stands to reason that they'd give him a little leeway as he got healthy. Apples and oranges.

And though I said we should sit Vogey for two weeks, I meant 2 starts (15 day DL retroactive). My bad. Who they would replace him with is less of a concern to me given (as you correctly pointed out) there are few good options); I only pointed out that among the Fresno starters, Loux was the best of a bad bunch.

Ghost, I dont see Niese and Vogelsong as apples and oranges at all. In fact, I think its a great example of how you dont panic when a starter is struggling this early in the season. Yes Niese is proven. Vogelsong has been more proven over the last 2 years and certainly has pitched in more big games. Now, if he is injured thats a different story. If it is just to sit him for 1 start and have a guy make a spot start I would be fine with that. Anything more at this point I would not agree with.

And not to be argumentative but you did say a few weeks - not two weeks.

I did originally say "weeks" and I was wrong; I meant to say 2 starts. Not sure why I originally wrote weeks....brain fart on my part.

Good conversation. Too bad this has to even come up though. I do agree that Sabean just has not done a good job with a contingency plan for our starting pitching. When you have older pitchers like Vogey and Zito and someone coming off a horendous year like Timmy there SHOULD be a proven 6th starter who can work as the long man out of the pen. Of course, that isnt necessary when you have a ready option in the minors but that isnt the case.

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by itlynstalyn:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by jrg:

That has always bugged me. I have no idea where those other nicknames came from. Its weird that they would add something inaccurate like that...

Fat Ichiro is a pretty well-known nickname for Panda, and little money was a Kuiper-coined nickname when Bengie was still on the team and was referred to as big money. Round mound of pound is a less-used one, but they're all accurate.

Officially listed nicknames arent something people used a couple times. Nobody uses those other 3 nicknames.

Fat Ichiro gets used a ton, head over to McCoveyChronicles. The other two were still nicknames he was given early on, so they're still accurate.

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
I think it's funny because if anyone would've asked about Vogey back in 2011 spring training, they would've said the same thing. He's garbage. In fact, he was HOT garbage for a number of years. We all know the story John...he was so bad he had to play in Japan for 3 years, and even when he came back, he was released by two clubs before we signed him to a minor league deal in 2011.

Basically, Vogey WAS Loux prior to 2011. Of course that doesn't mean Loux will turn into the next Ryan Vogelsong; that's not likely to happen. Just pointing out the obvious irony.

And I even think your Niese comparison is off-base. At 26, Niese is almost 10 years younger than Vogey and has nearly 4 years of solid MLB service so of course you're going to handle a guy like that differently. Niese is a young guy and a proven, effective starter with his whole career ahead of him. Add on the fact that Niese was battling a neck injury and it stands to reason that they'd give him a little leeway as he got healthy. Apples and oranges.

And though I said we should sit Vogey for two weeks, I meant 2 starts (15 day DL retroactive). My bad. Who they would replace him with is less of a concern to me given (as you correctly pointed out) there are few good options); I only pointed out that among the Fresno starters, Loux was the best of a bad bunch.

Ghost, I dont see Niese and Vogelsong as apples and oranges at all. In fact, I think its a great example of how you dont panic when a starter is struggling this early in the season. Yes Niese is proven. Vogelsong has been more proven over the last 2 years and certainly has pitched in more big games. Now, if he is injured thats a different story. If it is just to sit him for 1 start and have a guy make a spot start I would be fine with that. Anything more at this point I would not agree with.

And not to be argumentative but you did say a few weeks - not two weeks.

I did originally say "weeks" and I was wrong; I meant to say 2 starts. Not sure why I originally wrote weeks....brain fart on my part.

Good conversation. Too bad this has to even come up though. I do agree that Sabean just has not done a good job with a contingency plan for our starting pitching. When you have older pitchers like Vogey and Zito and someone coming off a horendous year like Timmy there SHOULD be a proven 6th starter who can work as the long man out of the pen. Of course, that isnt necessary when you have a ready option in the minors but that isnt the case.

We're going to be scrambling for a rotation in 2014, that's for damn sure unless the minors are further along than we all anticipate by the end of the season.

Originally posted by itlynstalyn:

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:

Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
I think it's funny because if anyone would've asked about Vogey back in 2011 spring training, they would've said the same thing. He's garbage. In fact, he was HOT garbage for a number of years. We all know the story John...he was so bad he had to play in Japan for 3 years, and even when he came back, he was released by two clubs before we signed him to a minor league deal in 2011.

Basically, Vogey WAS Loux prior to 2011. Of course that doesn't mean Loux will turn into the next Ryan Vogelsong; that's not likely to happen. Just pointing out the obvious irony.

And I even think your Niese comparison is off-base. At 26, Niese is almost 10 years younger than Vogey and has nearly 4 years of solid MLB service so of course you're going to handle a guy like that differently. Niese is a young guy and a proven, effective starter with his whole career ahead of him. Add on the fact that Niese was battling a neck injury and it stands to reason that they'd give him a little leeway as he got healthy. Apples and oranges.

And though I said we should sit Vogey for two weeks, I meant 2 starts (15 day DL retroactive). My bad. Who they would replace him with is less of a concern to me given (as you correctly pointed out) there are few good options); I only pointed out that among the Fresno starters, Loux was the best of a bad bunch.

Ghost, I dont see Niese and Vogelsong as apples and oranges at all. In fact, I think its a great example of how you dont panic when a starter is struggling this early in the season. Yes Niese is proven. Vogelsong has been more proven over the last 2 years and certainly has pitched in more big games. Now, if he is injured thats a different story. If it is just to sit him for 1 start and have a guy make a spot start I would be fine with that. Anything more at this point I would not agree with.

And not to be argumentative but you did say a few weeks - not two weeks.

I did originally say "weeks" and I was wrong; I meant to say 2 starts. Not sure why I originally wrote weeks....brain fart on my part.

Good conversation. Too bad this has to even come up though. I do agree that Sabean just has not done a good job with a contingency plan for our starting pitching. When you have older pitchers like Vogey and Zito and someone coming off a horendous year like Timmy there SHOULD be a proven 6th starter who can work as the long man out of the pen. Of course, that isnt necessary when you have a ready option in the minors but that isnt the case.

We're going to be scrambling for a rotation in 2014, that's for damn sure unless the minors are further along than we all anticipate by the end of the season.

I guess I look at it a little differently. I'm just not sure how realistic it is to win 2 titles in 3 years, go into the 4th year of chasing a ring with one of the best (and most expensive) starting staffs in the league, have 1-2 viable options waiting in the wings AND have 2-3 legitimate starting options for the future. Building up for and actually having that type of on-the-field success while still being able to plan for every contingency just doesn't seem to be realistic in my mind.

When you start seeing success like the Giants have, you'd be crazy to let some of the key contributors walk so you make investments in them. That's the choice they made...invest in the guys that brought you to the dance as opposed to guys who didn't. And clearly, the Giants have invested heavily in the 5 starters that just brought home a ring last year.

When you do that, you just don't have the resources to have a quality 6th starter/swingman. And yes, we can talk about Wheeler, but that's spilled milk already...he ain't coming back so there's no point in that discussion. It was a bad move, but you can't undo it. Now, they do seem to have at least 3-4 quality young arms that look like long-term viable options, but no real can't miss prospect. Definitely one of the casualties of drafting in the bottom half every year since 2010 because before that, we were drafting pretty high and hitting on some winners (Wheeler, Posey, MadBum, Timmy).

To me it's clear...they made the choice to go with these 5 starters for better or for worse knowing that if things swung their way, they could very easily make a run for a 3rd ring in 4 years with them. If that happens, I honestly don't care too much about 2014 and I suspect the front office feels that way too.

Originally posted by itlynstalyn:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by itlynstalyn:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by jrg:

That has always bugged me. I have no idea where those other nicknames came from. Its weird that they would add something inaccurate like that...

Fat Ichiro is a pretty well-known nickname for Panda, and little money was a Kuiper-coined nickname when Bengie was still on the team and was referred to as big money. Round mound of pound is a less-used one, but they're all accurate.

Officially listed nicknames arent something people used a couple times. Nobody uses those other 3 nicknames.

Fat Ichiro gets used a ton, head over to McCoveyChronicles. The other two were still nicknames he was given early on, so they're still accurate.

Major recognized nicknames are something all baseball fans should know of. A few people on McCovey Chronicles calling him "Fat Ichiro" doesnt count. If you asked someone in New York or Chicago who "Fat Ichiro" was, nobody would know. I just think its a stretch to list those as official nicknames.

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by itlynstalyn:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by itlynstalyn:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by jrg:

That has always bugged me. I have no idea where those other nicknames came from. Its weird that they would add something inaccurate like that...

Fat Ichiro is a pretty well-known nickname for Panda, and little money was a Kuiper-coined nickname when Bengie was still on the team and was referred to as big money. Round mound of pound is a less-used one, but they're all accurate.

Officially listed nicknames arent something people used a couple times. Nobody uses those other 3 nicknames.

Fat Ichiro gets used a ton, head over to McCoveyChronicles. The other two were still nicknames he was given early on, so they're still accurate.

Major recognized nicknames are something all baseball fans should know of. A few people on McCovey Chronicles calling him "Fat Ichiro" doesnt count. If you asked someone in New York or Chicago who "Fat Ichiro" was, nobody would know. I just think its a stretch to list those as official nicknames.

This on sportscenter you didn't hear them saying and Fat Ichiro hit a 3 run homer in the 4th to give the Giants a 5-2 lead...

Not a widely known or used nickname. Also stupid

I don't get it...all we do is serve HRs

This is turning into a nightmare road trip.

Starting pitching is non-existent.

I can't recall ever seeing so much collective downward spirals from great pitchers. It is almost as if Lincy, Cain and Vogey made a deal with the devil